Erny

I have many days like that SnT! In fact, I do recall seeing some of your posts where you've saved ME from posting because YOU'VE been able to word it, where my words were tangled up in my head.

We are helping her by recommending she seeks the services of a qualified trainer/behaviourist. We are helping her because we've given her a couple of non-challenging programs to follow in the interim to engaging a trainer/behaviourist. We are helping her because we are suggesting what to avoid doing so the problem doesn't escalate.

I certainly don't seek to denegrate, Australdi. As I pointed out in another earlier post - when you are dealing in potentially injurious matters, it's not IMO satisfactory to advise ANY method that could be taken as challenging by a dog over the net in the absence of knowing the people and dog/s concerned. In addition, whilst I applaude that your methods have been successful in relation to your two dobes, two dogs out of the whole population does not make that method right or appropriate for others. What some of us have been pointing out here is not to degenerate you as such, but it is to inform the OP (and her friend, for whom this thread was generated) that there are dangers in simply removing food and also dangers in creating a challenge. Please always keep your mind open to the fact that what has worked for you might have been a bit flukey and may not bring about the result required in other people's instances. Please also keep your mind open to the fact that many who read here (not only the OP) may well be very new to the world of dogs and, feeling they know less, take literally and for gospel a lot of what is said. Hence the need for caution in what you say, about the topic you say it in (bearing in mind the sensitivities required for potential injuries) and how you say and explain it. What if this dog/pup did not respond in the way you imagine it might? What then? This is the sort of information people need. Training - especially behaviour modification, is not black and white. It's not simply a matter of "do this and the dog will do that" .... because all dogs are different and all people are different. Ergo the perception between dog and human and vice versa is different from one to another.

Anne - Would you mind if I discuss this with you a little please? (and for this, I seek the OP's indulgences if this is slightly off topic). Just conversationally like, not debating or arguing. I find your 'concept' interesting and to a degree, thought provoking. But then I'm thinking "a rose by any other name smells as sweet". By that I mean I see your "belief" (or should I say "non-belief" of the human taking the "Alpha Role" as we understand it. But could it not be that simply because you are consistent, you are assertive and that you train your dogs to observe guidelines you set, that the dogs could very well see you as a pack member and leader? I could, of course, reverse the above and suggest that many of us do believe in the 'human' Alpha Role, and much of what we do with our dogs is likely to be similar to what you do and perhaps the dogs don't see us as the "pack leader" we perceive ourselves to be. But the end result is the same is it not?

Ummmmm, I'm lost. Would you point me to where I agreed with the finding? Not needling, but genuinely can't remember that bit.

And Aus, I had to send my sweet girl .... my soul dog, bless her heart .... off with her wings 8 weeks ago. I too know how you are feeling.

Sunny .... I'm not going to start training over the net. I've explained why in an earlier post, so please forgive me for refraining from doing so. But I feel it would be remiss of me not to mention that some of what your friend says she did is right, and some IMO is wrong. She's right - she should have left the pup to eat its meal after having completed the TOT exercise. Different training is required to teach the pup that resource guarding (in this case, food) is not necessary. If she continues to simply take the meal away, resource guarding could escalate, as could the aggression that goes with it. It's not about the kids being alone - but obviously simply being 'around' isn't sufficient. The parents must be in control of both the kids and the pup whilst they are interacting. I still think your friend needs a session or two from a private trainer/behaviourist.

DodgyDoggie - what you have written is what it is all about. Either you had that 'natural talent' or you were well read, versed and/or trained. This is what I'm sure the OP's friend can achieve too (although for consistency's sake she will require a good amount of organisation and self-discipline given that she also has 7 kids under the age of 12yo to monitor ) with the right tuition. I realise everyone learns differently, but I think the best learning is: Read it. Hear it. See it. Do it. .... or at least #'s 2-4, and that's where private lessons are invaluable. And I 100% agree with you, and what I've alluded to (or intended to allude to) in my earlier post/s ..... the parents need to know what to do, how to do it and be able to do it before they can then teach (under supervision) their children to do it.

Thought you were - given your misunderstanding of cavNrott's post, I can well imagine your raised eyebrows at the thought she was suggesting "alpha role" (ie leadership) was out of vogue! But at least that's cleared up now.

I don't frown on using a well timed growl, Aus .... so long as it is appropriate, for the right reason and by the right people. And sometimes there is more to it and more required than simply a "growl". Depends on the dog and the circumstances.

I think you've misunderstood, Australdi. cavNrott speaks of the "alpha roll", not the role of the Alpha. There is a different meaning to the two words "roll" and "role". Alpha Roll is IMO antiquated as well. It is the act of physically rolling (or in some people's cases, roughly rolling/throwing) the dog on its back. The idea back then was that the person doing it was showing Alpha position by forcing the other to submission. The thing with the "Alpha Roll" is however, that a true leader/dominant will incite submission in one who relinquishes heirarchy status/challenge. I have never yet seen a Wolf Pack Leader physically dump a subordinate on its back ........... ETA: This misunderstanding by one poster of another already clearly shows how easy it is to misconstrue/misread something written. A good example of how easy this is to do and why matters of potentially injurious situations should be dealt with in person by a professional qualified for the job. No offense to you, Aus. And I am presuming (which is dangerous in itself) that this WAS a misread/misunderstanding?

Everyone has some good points/tips here (although I disagree with one or two) .... However I think the MAIN points of focus should be: Albeit that the pup is only 14 weeks of age, aggression has already been learnt. The parents, from what I can tell, do not have the required knowledge to deal with it. Especially when "aggression" is the issue and especially when "children" are the other issue, I have a tendancy to refrain from suggestions other than those that will stand them in good stead (and are non-challenging) until personal professional help is employed. I agree that heirarchy needs to be developed. But, especially for the young children, forcing that is in itself challenging and is likely to lead to an unhappy ending both for the child concerned and for the pup, not to mention all others within the family. Issuing tips and suggestions here on a forum worries me that people will then "just give it a try". But what they do might be either wrong and/or misunderstood by the readers and applied incorrectly and inappropriately. Quite often, those of us who know what we're doing will try to explain something, but may also inadvertently err by way of omission on a point that to the uninitiated is extemely important and sometimes vital to positive progress.

Ditto that, Jeff. Sunny - "Tips" will be offered here. But your friend will benefit greatly with a one-on-one consultation/session with a qualified dog trainer/behaviourist. This person will be able to explain to the parents how the pup views things, which in turn will help the parents better understand what to do and why do it. And hey, when it comes to kids being involved ..... I think it would be a very wise (and, it appears, necessary) move.

Good, Sunny70. ;) Get them to follow the NILIF program too (Parents can begin teaching the youngsters - those too young to learn it or deal with it need to be supervised when around the pup so the parents can step in and stop pup from mouthing/scratching/jumping up etc.)

Australdi - not knowing the OP's friend's children, I'd suggest the "TOT" program would be safer. The program is orchestrated by the parent, but a child can be next to them or held by them at the time. But as I mentioned earlier - it is about supervision .... I hesitate at the suggestion of the toy simply being "taken from the pup with a strong growl". This in itself can lead to resource guarding if not done correctly. I'm not saying don't do it at all .... but I am saying it should be done right. ETA - But not by the kids until the pup is better learnt and the kids have more respect from it .... and then only if supervised by a knowing adult. ETA: IMO, children should not be put in a position that may be seen as a challenge to a dog. In my very younger years, I had no issues with handling/dealing with pups/dogs ... I don't know if it was because I was naturally assertive; had a natural incling for interaction with animals .. or what. But not all kids are like that and in not knowing this family, I would not recommend any interaction by them that could lead them to harm from any pup or dog.

First and foremost: Don't leave the pup with the children unattended. Your friend needs to teach the pup social skills (as required by humans) such as inhibited bite; appropriate interaction; etc. etc. The pup is too young to understand this yet and without training but left to his own devices, of course it is going to act like a dog and NOT learn our human ways. This is not going to be improved by leaving the pup with children who in turn have no way of knowing or being able to manage a pup to suitably train it either. Seven children all under 12yo Are the parents going to have the time necessary? I presume they were aware of the time required to allocate training the puppy, not to mention the extra effort of trying to train & socialise a pup whilst at the same time train & socialise children just as appropriately?

It is incredibly hard to do, I know. But know in your heart that you did it with only her in mind and it was the most selfless gesture you could offer her. Only a kind and generous heart can do that, Trevanis. I'm sorry for your loss. RIP Rio, and run free and happy at the rainbow bridge.

DAP = Dog Appeasing Pheromones. It is a diffuser that works similarly to the diffusers we plug in to make our homes smell nice. But the stuff in the DAP diffusers is made from Pheromones derived from a lactating bitch - designed to calm/sooth a dog.

Rusky - As you know, I PM'd you with my sentiments for your loss of Cindy. Following is a poem that was sent to me by a couple of very kind DOLers when I lost my sweet girl "Kal" 8 long weeks ago. I hope that when you read it offers you some comfort in your heart, even though I'm sure it will also bring with it tears. Tears of anguish eventuate to become cleansing tears and you might wish to re-visit to read the poem at a later time. My heart goes out to you, Rusky. You did all you could to give Cindy a comfortable life especially in these later times. Cindy knows your love I'm sure. Take care, Rusky. RIP Cindy and enjoy your carefree frollick in the grass under the soft sun at the rainbow bridge.

What is the point of your question as far as it relates to the debate pertaining to electronic training systems, Snobbybobby?

I agree - and the stimulus from the e-collar ceases immediately, whereas the affect of the citronella scent would linger in the dog's nasal passages longer .... even after the unwanted behaviour has stopped.

If you knew RT's or e-collars, you'd know for descriptive purposes it's less of an electric "shock" and more of a "stimulation" (albeit aversive/unpleasant). That aside, I wonder where you think we're going to put the collar? :D Any training equipment/tool/aid (yes, even a flat collar) applied "to the wrong area of the body can be harmful". Ergo your statement above is a bit latent.

Thanks for that, Sonic. I believe that NDTF has applied for and attained qualification with the DPI now.

Openarms ..... I am so sorry to read of your loss. Having had to send my dog with her wings only 8 weeks ago, I understand the devastation you feel. The shock of this being your girl's first fit - and it being such a long one (even a fit lasting 5 minutes can be cause for grave concern) leading to your girl's gift of freedom, has not even given you the grace of expecting such an outcome. Daisy is at the rainbow bridge now. In peace. I will send thoughts to my sweet girl Kal, asking her to extend her doggy paw and show your girl around. Talk this through, and cry, as much as you need. Take comfort in the fact you gave your girl a wonderful 12 months - time that she could well otherwise have been denied had you not been there as her saviour when you spotted her on that busy road. Take care for yourself, now.

I wonder what your comments here on e-collars would have read if the faulty citronella collar that you hired from Council had actually been successful ..... and even maybe successful in a shorter period than you could otherwise achieve with another tool/method? Of course, that it was faulty and perhaps that it was chosen for use on the wrong dog for the wrong reason ??? , aside.