Erny

Hi Rom. Expecting dogs to think and reason as humans do, then punishing them because they're not responding as we intended to (but ARE responding to the mixed messages we're sending), is cruel. Nurturing fear behaviour because we think dogs receive these messages by way of re-assurance, when in fact we are encouraging and making it worse, thereby increasing their anxiety, is cruel. Ok - some people do this inadvertently and can be forgiven, but I know of others who, even though they've been informed, continue to do so because the dogs are filling the humans' void and they refuse to change. Sorry to butt in, but as HR wasn't here right now, thought I'd jump the queue ;). I'm sure HR will have some good 'pearlies' to throw in here by way of answer to your post, once he rocks on in. ;)

Another of my 'pet peeves' are owners/handlers who seem to think that 'training' doesn't start until they actually GET to class. I, as well as many other instructors are regularly and often pointing out to dog owners that training begins THE MOMENT the lead is attached to the dog. However, I constantly see people who ignore all the training advice given and techniques used to teach their dogs not to pull on the lead .... Instead, they allow their dogs to pull all the way to class and THEN their handlers put their learnt technique into action. And this counts for NOT ONLY beginners, but ALSO for handler/dog combo's in the higher level classes as well. And then the people ask why their dog still pulls, or why their dog is unreliable in this respect. Not to mention that it's simply not fair on the dog - too much inconsistency. (Erny searches for "pull hair out" emoticon) ETA: I guess what I'm really saying here is that there is so much inconsistency in training by dog owners, on behalf of the dogs, I find it really frustratingly maddening. :D Please don't do it.

Hi Denis I agree - it is good to debate, criticise (in this case) training methods and explain why, just as it is good for the other people's POV to be equally debated and supported. But what HR means by his quote is not the he knows of some people within Delta to frown upon methodologies they don't support/use (which is their choice), but literally look down on the people who do use them. One Delta person here on DOL accused NDTF trained people as being snobs. It is this type of "look down on" that I believe HR refers to and is, of course, unneccessary and irrelevant to the rights and/or wrongs of dog training beliefs.

I had Kal on Glucosamine for a period of time. Her chiropracter advised to give her one tablet per day. The brand I used was "Micro Genics" Glucosamine 1500, Chondroitin Complex. This was for a 31kg Rhodesian Ridgeback.

Thank you ....... thank you everyone. I have been visiting here and reading your posts. Until now, I have not had the strength to convey my depth of feeling for the heartfelt support all your words offer and provide. Even now, I struggle. My tears are unending, but I know that my tears stem from a well that I kept sealed whilst my dear sweet Kal needed me. The dam has burst and whilst I'm sure that this is a good thing, they do not erase the anguish .... not in this short time, anyway. I expect it will improve, but the pain is keen. Every movement and routine I go through is as if I re-open a wound. Putting my dressing gown on last night ..... served to remind me that when I wore it last was in the early part of yesterday, when I gave my girl an early morning cuddle. When I finally retired to bed, I moved around her cushion bed (which still lays next to mine) as if she were still there. "Goodnight, my sweet" I said, although to no-one there. But perhaps she is somewhere where she knows, and can hear me. Kal is all around me. Her mats, bed, blankets. The small scrap of food that she missed after finishing up her second meal of that morning. The bones that still lay on the verandah near her outdoor beanbag. I cannot bring myself to move or remove them, although I know it will need to be done. But not yet .... not today. Even to the point of my shower today .... expecting Kal's enquiring eyes to peer around the bathroom door. "What are you doing? .... are you going out? Am I coming?" she seemed to ask. Getting dressed ..... every piece of my clothing somehow has more than a couple of her wonderful dog hairs attached. I somehow find this comforting, even though it causes tears to steadily flow down my cheeks. I have to meet an appointment today. I almost dread getting into the car .... still full of the blankets protecting the back seat and providing her comfort, as well as the special 'step' that was made to make her entry and exit to and from the car that little more easier and dignified. Once I have met each day to day, moment to moment, routine and gone through it, I know it will be that small bit easier the next time. At the moment, though ... I am raw and although I know it to be impossible, my mind is screaming "I WANT MY DOG BACK ... WHOLE!". I long for the silky smooth feel of her ears, for the nuzzle and kiss she would give me - especially when I was eating chocolate (she knew it was the closest she'd get to having any). I long for the whine she would give me to let me know she needed to go outside, and for the 'over the moon' joy she would exhibit in her more healthy days when she knew she could come with me for a car ride. I long to see her head reaching up for a re-assuring pat "I'm still here" when, in these later days, we were both in our respect beds but after her body illness made her puzzle about what was happening. I long to feel the warmth of her under my hand. I will put one foot after the other and doggedly move on, through and forward. But damn ................ it's a lonely void that I know no-one other than the kindness of 'time' can relieve me of. All your words, kind people, do make the passage through my anguish for the loss of my best friend and soul-mate smoother. So once more, I cannot express my gratitude enough for your thoughts, not only throughout our story, in the ups and the downs, but also now, in the 'afterwards'.

Well written, Rom and good analogies given - they are exemplory of the "Laws of Learning". And I agree .... to exclude all aspects of training from the education of those who seek it is a bias approach and precludes those in their school from making choices. Not only that, but those who graduate from that school will not have learnt the sensitivities required to provide an aversive, and should they have need to explore this area on their own could well serve to an excessiveness that then becomes, as you mention, abuse. Better to know how to properly apply it should one find the necessity to do so than exclude it from discussion and choice altogether, IMO.

In all honesty, I couldn't tell you now. The course has changed since I did it ... it comprises of more units than it used to, as well as many more electives. The cost of the course is dependant on things such as what unit electives you choose to do (or not) as well as, I think, prior experience ....... (eg. RPL) Best thing would be to contact NDTF and ask them. (Ph. 03 9761 0406) Don't worry - they are not the sales people type who think by getting you on the phone they've got you hooked like a fish on a line. Sponsorship is also available, but you'd need to ask them how that works - I think it depends on the form of work you're in and whether your organisation is willing to sponsor you, which brings the price down considerably. But don't take my word for it as I am not involved at management level.

I do rinse the dirt away after I've used it as a scrub, mind. (Just in case you thought otherwise.)

Thank you everyone. For your words, your thoughts and your support. I sit here in front of my keyboard. I don't seem to be able to settle anywhere else. I feel lost, but that would be a feeling to be expected. Your expression of encouragement, your share in my loss, your tears and your involvement in the unfolding of the latter part of Kal's life story all help ... more than you would imagine. Thank you, again. You're very special people.

Same thoughts as HR. IMO, doing the Delta course is like saying "I have a preferred method of training in my mind, and I want to learn about THAT" (to the exclusion of all other possible methods). Every dog is different and this also makes every problem you might encounter in dog behaviour, different. When you have only learnt a limited number of methods, or even only one - whilst you might be an expert at its administration, YOU are limited by your knowledge. With the NDTF course, you learn each of the 4 quadrants of training. The effects as well as affects. You leave the course with a knowledge of all and thereby giving you the choice as to which method you adopt as your 'preference'. But you also have the other methods 'under your hat', to employ in the event that your 'preferred' method is not sufficient for any one or number of dogs. It also enables you to tweak your preferred method - ie combining different aspects of each or any training quadrant. I do this quite frequently and is probably why I have difficulty teaching over the internet, because what I might do with one dog could vary by degrees for another. But I have the flexibility to match the individual dog and this itself is a valuable asset. I would like to undertake the Delta Course, simply to further explore the specific training method they use and maybe, or maybe not, pick up additional training 'tips' of which I might not be aware. But the cost of the course for this purpose only is too expensive for me at the moment. There are some wonderful Delta people with whom I have had some very open and interesting dog-related discussions, but then, as HR mentions, there are those that will not entertain the idea of any other training method than the one they know and look down on the NDTF trained people. I don't know of any NDTF trained people who have that same attitude in return .... they are all, to my knowledge, open-minded. They have been trained that way, without bias. And this is my own very honest opinion.

Congratulations, Ravensmyst and Xander

Thank you everyone. Your messages have been the source of strength that I have needed to do what I had to do, for the love of my dog, this morning. Kal had a particularly 'bad night' last night. Irratic and frantic breathing/panting issues that lasted for a much longer period than they ever have before. This morning she awoke, and whilst still looking for her breakfast (and offering me a tail wag when I let her know it was on its way), she was weak and tired. After breakfast, she retired to her beanbag on the front verandah (her favourite outdoor spot). But her weakness bid her to flop/fall on the beanbag. I covered her with a blanket and brought her bone closer to her. She initially didn't have the strength to pick it up and hold it for herself, so I did this for her (although I think she thought I was a fumble fart, because I couldn't seem to hold it at just the right angle for her ). I laid each of her front paws on the bone and she managed to take over the controls and have a gnaw on it with the expertise that only she knows. Her interest in the bone was short lived, though .... I don't think she had the energy for it. To her pleasure, I fed her another meal come 10.00am this morning. Afterwards, we spent the next hour resting/cuddling on her mat in the lounge room, with the (gas) log fire going for a bit of comfort. I think she enjoyed this time - just her and me. There were moments of brightness and enquiry in her eyes when I nearly rang the Vet and cancelled his visit. But there were more moments in her eyes of weariness, and her breathing wasn't flash. I didn't want for her to go through another night like the last. I gave Kal her wings at 11.45am this morning. She left me with her head cradled in my arms and with telling her I love her and that it is ok to leave me. I sat with her for a further half hour until the crematorium service arrived. The little things, like when he rang the door bell and I momentarily expected her to come rushing out barking .... even though she remained cradled with me. Worrying that the gates are closed. Expecting her to snuffle and whine at the internal door to the garage, where she knows I sneak out to for a smoke. I miss her immensly already. My dear sweet Kal - so honest and true. She didn't deserve the disease that befell her as I know none of our cherished canine friends do. I gave her the only other gift I had left to give. She will forever be in my heart. Rest In Peace my dearest one. Kal 1.10.93 - 17.7.06

Not being silly, M-J. Dogs can smell our emotions.

Spot on, Myszka And I think that counts for any person in any field of expertise .... animal related or not. I always told my students, as well as any person in training underneath me (in academic field of 'other' business) .... "One of the keys to excellence is to always know when you don't know something and to check it out further before you act on it, if you act on it at all."

I agree. I'd like to know what the sperm count was at the concluded 'term' of an implant, and how long it then took for sperm count to return to normal levels.

Ok .... here I am. And in a stronger frame of mind to be able to post coherently (I think ). The last week has seen Kal deteriorate, but not without its little ups and downs. It's just that each of the "ups" were in a lesser form, and less frequent. And the "downs" were stronger, and more prevalent. Last Monday, I withdrew Kal from the Bromapex (Potassium Bromide) as I was not the least happy with the bouts of straining diarrhea it gave her. It was a case of the "cure being worse than the cold". Instead, after consult with her Vet, I increased her Phenobarb doseage by a further half tablet. I had ceased the Rimadyl, as I felt that, too, was contributing towards stomach irritation. "Cure worse than the cold", again. Although I got a course of antibiotics from the Vet (this was for the discharge from her nose) I have refrained from administering them, as, although the nose is still discharging blood, the mucous discharge is clear and does not appear to be bacterial. Over that last week or so, it had not gone unnoticed by me that I couldn't "see" Kal anymore, or if I did, then not much and only glimpses of her. I could barely get her to raise a tail wag, if at all, even for food. She still loved her food - but it seemed to me that it was more a case of her being driven to eat by this disease that she has, rather than eating for the sheer love and enjoyment of it. Over the last week, I forced myself to accept that I would be required to intervene, even though I had hoped and prayed that Kal would make that decision and take her 'wings' and fly, of her own doing. Come last Thursday, I made the first tentative step towards arranging Kal's final gift and gathered pamphlets relating to crematorium services. I also visited a local Vet with a view to him agreeing to make the home visit when necessary. Thursday night was not a good one for me, or for Kal. Come Friday, things were no better and possibly worse (laboured breathing; weakness; general lacklustre; tiny head tapping seizures; general overall weariness etc.). I took the dreaded and horrible step of arranging the Vet and Crematorium services. What I hated, and continue to hate, the most is the seeming necessity to give them 'notice' (especially the crematorium services, who made it clear they were very busy and explained why it was so difficult to respond spontaneously). I understand 'business', but it all felt so cold and calculating to set a date ahead of time for such a personal thing and knowing that I don't have a crystal ball and what if it simply turned out to be the 'wrong' time. I spent that day and all of the next churning these thoughts around in my mind, terrified that I was wrong. During the course of Saturday, Kal had 2 or 3 episodes that I could only best describe as "fainting" spells ... not a completely accurate description, but basically it was the loss of any leg strength, and she would stand, then shake (you could see this only if you were looking at the right time and didn't blink) and then her legs would give way. I was there to stop the fall and pick her up each time. It lasted only for a moment on each occasion, but it left her very weak and with very little control when she would go to settle on her mat or bed. She would pretty much fall down before she'd even had a chance to place her legs comfortably. Saturday night, a lovely person by the name of Dani Simmonds, who is a Holistic Therapist, visited us. I had only telephoned Dani on Friday and although she is theoretically booked out until August and was sporting a dreadful bronchial cold, made her way clear to driving out to us from Sunbury (over to me in the South Eastern Suburbs). Dani spent some time with Kal and with me. Although there is nothing she can do for Kal medically speaking, she did leave me with some holistic drops for Kal .... simply to make her "feel" better in herself. Her presence and discussion with me (we chatted generally as well as specifically) was something that has helped me. Today I spent tearing myself apart. Going through periods of uncontrollable grief, to periods of strength that I needed to gather together whenever Kal was present, or whenever I was in her presence. I was so torn over what I am facing and whether it was right .... or heaven forbid, whether it was wrong. It has been gut and heart wrenching. The feeling I had was akin to serious soul searching - don't know if any of you reading have ever done that before, but it can be like as if you are ripping your insides out and putting them back in some 'better' order. Very tough ordeal, although a very healing one when you come out the other end of the tunnel. Anyway ... back to the story ..... Over the course of today, Kal has been a little better. She has some strength returned in her legs - not a lot, but enough to get her around and retain some control. She even went to the toilet at her old spot (where she negotiates 2 steps to get there). In the last few weeks, she's been going to another patch of grass (where, in days of old, I never used to let her go - she burns the grass like wildfire .... naturally, that is now a very insignificant thing) ... so it's become a bit of a "well-being thermometer" for me. If she's feeling low, she goes to the nearest grass patch. If she's feeling stronger, she goes to the back lawn area. Sure - she's still slept a lot, but not as much as she has been. And the sleep she has had seems to have been a better quality sleep with outer-eyelids closed, rather than simply the third eyelid shut with drug inducement. She has spent more wakeful time, and has strolled around (not a lot mind, but more than has occurred in the last week). I feed her lots of small meals, and am giving her bones more frequently than ever before. She's had two (marrow bones) today. She's had a wonderful time between meals, sleeping, waking and bones. We tottered over the road for a little 5 minute walk down the lane and back. This was all she could manage and she was relieved to be home. But it gave her a change of scenery and a chance to sniff at least a small part of her environment. The "Kal" that I know was showing in her eyes today, and her tail has wagged on a number of occasions in response to certain things that I said to her through the course of the day. Kal's appointment with the angels is scheduled for tomorrow morning. But I have concluded this: I will cancel this arrangement if I am in any doubt whatsoever that Kal is not ready to leave. I will re-arrange the appointment at the drop of a hat and spontaneously when that becomes necessary, assuming Kal does not elect to make the decision herself. I don't give a hang if the crematorium people cannot fit in with me, and I'll bl#@dy well dig a hole myself if that is what I need to do. This is where I am at now. Strength and resolve to do what is right WHEN it is right - not before and not after, regardless of the expressed necessity to fit in with businesses in the related industries. If the Vet I have spoken to (who has been very nice and not unhelpful) is not available (eg after hours) I will call the emergency centre and hopefully talk them around to doing a home visit. I haven't re-read my post before hitting the 'submit' button. I hope it doesn't sound morbid. It's not meant to, and it is not from where my words come. I thank everyone for your thoughts. I get the feeling you all know we are coming to the end of our story and in your short words and wishes, felt the strength you were sending me. I cannot tell you enough of my appreciation. I will post again - it might be before Kal's 'time' is up, it might be after. But I will share with you her passing and believe that, although I will be incredibly sad and will miss my girl more than words will ever be able to describe, it will be a blessing because it will be at the right time for her. I finish this post by expressing how humbled I am for everything Kal has ever taught me both on a mental and 'self' level. She is one very special dog and if I ever say here on DOL that I am unlucky by nature, would you please remind me that I had one very exquisite and priceless gift land on my doorstep one day (figuratively speaking, but only just) and that to 'land' such a treasure renders me the luckiest person alive.

For the sensitised dog, this is possible. Although most dogs take in the whole picture, such as smooth forhead (ie no frowning wrinkles), eyes not glaring. Humans often use their voice in greeting too, which a dog includes into the "big picture" and hence (generally) understand we are not threatening. Add in our habit of leaning in, over and towards the dog however, and the "picture" as perceived by the dog can change quite damatically. But I believe some dogs do mimic our smiles by way of greeting, at times.

Only on faulty workmanship, if MIL tells you need to get Kal outside and she needs to stay out, this isn't covered........enjoy cheers M-J Eeeeeeewwwwwww! So, your MIL needs behaviour modification treatment?

I don't think "lazy" is the word, Mooper. I don't wash Kal's stainless steel food bowl that regularly either. She's generally very good at licking up every last bit she can find, finishing up by snuffling around the edges and outside for any pieces that might have 'escaped'. When she's done, she will come out and wonder around .... check me out to see if I have anything else for her, and periodically wander back to her bowl just to make sure she got the lot. I have gone to clean her bowl after she's eaten, but then felt rotten about taking away the small joy she gets when she does find the odd rolled oat flake or whatever that escaped her attention the last time. I mainly clean her food bowl when I have people coming around and/or when I've given the laundry (which is Kal's "food" room) a good scrub and clean out. A scrubbed out bowl just adds that 'finishing' touch. Water bowls (indoors and outdoors) are both pottery types (ceramic seals). The outdoor type is a large one - excellent as it helps to keep the water cooler in summer and stores a good supply of water. Very occasionally I wash them out with detergent, but I usually just rub around with a cloth and/or my hand to remove 'skum' and give it a good rinse with clear water. I'm sure they must be able to smell/taste the detergent used for cleaning it, even if they don't seem to be too put off by it. If there is algae growing on the inside of the outdoor one, I often scoop up some dirt from the garden and scrub that around the sides and bottom - dirt works as an abrasive and removes the algae easily. It's an "all natural" method too. I used to do this to the horse troughs (bath tubs) out in the horse paddocks, way back when. Saved trampsing all the way back to the house for cleaning gear - I could simply attend to the job as soon as I saw it was required.

And here's another example. For dogs who have the genetic urge to dig .............. a method called "stimulus control". Where instead of insisting on the impossible (ie not to dig .... ever) you provide a sand pit and teach the dog that is where it is allowed to dig. One of the recommended things to do to begin the process of learning, is bury treats/favourite toy things and dig in the sand pit yourself to uncover them ... all the while with your dog looking on and participating when a treasure is uncovered. IE Learning by observation. My dog is not a digger. But sometimes I can get her to have "a little go" at digging, by pretending to dig myself. (eg when I'm at the beach).

Ok .... back on topic (for a moment ) .... Here's a story from a fellow who I got to know when I was doing the NDTF dog training certification course, years ago. He owns a boxer. Smart dog - had learnt to learn. Did all sorts of tricks and was very good at obedience at a high and reliable level. This dog buried its bones as dogs usually do. Until one week, his owner had the landscaping done to his back yard and spent a full weekend planting shrubs/trees. The dog enjoyed the activities of his owner, stayed by his side and generally hung around with interest. After that weekend, whenever this dog gets a bone to eat and he's had his 'fill', he now buries all his bones with one end sticking up out of the hole. Go figure. ......................................................... wonder if he thought they might grow ????

...................................... There is a money back guarantee, isn't there?

If you would like to try model rival training for this I could lend you my mother in law, she has a extremely high housework drive cheers M-J Send her over ..................... NOW!!!!! (errrmm .... does she cook too, by any chance? Tell her to pack her bags and be ready for a long stay .)

Or could it be because you weren't trained in drive and aren't showing enough excitment at the prospect of finishing the tasks to tweak her interest You might be right, although knowing my dog, if I showed so much enthusiasm to the task at hand, she'd be thinking to not ruin my 'fun' and leave me to it anyway. (When I throw a ball, she tends to look at me as if to say "well, you threw it away, so you can't want it much" ..... no point in her getting it back for me! )

Ummm .... unless I'm misinterpreting your question, CC, I think that's a bit like asking "how long is a piece of string". It would depend on the dog you're working with. Some have a very natural attentiveness, whilst others are more persuaded by the distractions around them. It would, of course, also depend on the quality and style of the dog's training. I'd also have t ask ... are you talking ONLY about a dog that is trained as a pup right from get go, or are you asking about ANY dog, even if good training begins somewhat later in life (which is the majority of my experiences, given the work that I do).