Erny

DBS .... I couldn't have put it better myself. That's exactly what the feeling is. I think the serenity comes from acceptance. I am hoping that Kal finds the absolute tranquility she deserves in the most serene of ways. I am watchful.

Yep. Because the dog will always know there's a positive he can get elsewhere and he'll seek that in circumstances that suit him. Yep again. And of course, you need to remain in control so that if the dog does seek drive satisfaction elsewhere, you can prevent that occurring (thus avoiding the dog achieving positive value). Note that "neutralised" doesn't mean your dog doesn't like or won't meet/greet with other dogs, but it does mean they're not fussed one way or the other and that YOU remain their 'be all and end all'. That's the theory, as I understand it. Yes, it would. But I think K9's answer would be that drive training would have been incomplete. If drive training had been complete here, your dog would have learnt that ONLY YOU provide drive satisfaction. With dogs who have learnt this, it doesn't matter who picks up his drive item/toy, he's not interested in it UNLESS YOU are the one controlling it. Not dense ... good questions. I've been to two of Steve's seminars and I'm still learning to understand and, moreover, explain the theory . It's good practice to get it out here in my own words. I'm sure he would, if you can get a group arranged.

Hi Amhailte! Good to see you here! I'll do my best to answer your queries in my own fashion, although "neutralisation" is really K9 Force's baby and I'd expect his answers may be shorter and more to the point. It is most ideal to begin with a pup and yes, once your dog "has assigned a positive value to things" then neutralisation doesn't really occur. Having said that, neutralisation is possible with an older dog (such as mine, "Kal") who had a negative value to other people and to other dogs. With desensitisation (to remove the fear aspect) I believe that for the most part, she has "neutralised" to these. Eg. She doesn't mind meeting other dogs in the park and she doesn't mind meeting other people, but she really can't be bothered with their company/interaction beyond that, and wouldn't be fussed if she didn't meet them at all. (I hasten to add that she's not perfect in these domains all of the time .... sometimes there is still the faintest negative value attached to them, but that's Kal's story and is not the place for it here.) Kal would much prefer my company and my interaction. I would suggest you're very much on the right track. Again - Steve (K9 Force) would probably have a better (different?) answer to this. It's not about taking the dog out and letting it go to see if neutralisation has occurred. It's all about training in increments and about controlling the situation. If you don't, then in those "testing" periods, your dog could achieve positive value and you'd be behind the eight ball getting it back. So you train your dog and then proof your dog in a controlled environment and with other dogs (if "other dogs" is the object) who equally don't see your dog as "value". You work up to your mark and know that your dog has achieved it, rather than testing and finding your dog is under the mark. Have I answered in a fashion that can be understood? I'm not sure I have? I'd say that this would be the most difficult aspect of the dog's training, from the point of view that it's pretty hard for many of us to find a dog and dog handler who can and is available to work with for the purposes of training in this phase. ETA: I'm interpretting your "under the mark" to suggest that we're talking about a dog who HAS negative issues with a stimulus and has perceived no postive value from its reactions to it (ie no enjoyment of chase etc.). IMO, desensitisation/socialisation continues until the dog shows no negativity (and I use drive training to establish this wherever possible). Personally, with dogs who have issues, I'm not to concerned about reaching "neutralisation" .... my goal is for the dog to be positive and confident in the presence of the "aversive stimuli" (in other words, for the aversive stimuli to neutralise ... not be "aversive" any more). Have I understood where you're coming from for this question and my answer? When training and proofing are completed, your dog habitually looks to you for drive satisfaction - and knows that YOU are the only one who can provide it. Consequently, it doesn't look for satisfaction elsewhere. I will add that I have not personally trained a dog to this point (my dog is unsuitable and too unwell for this purpose) but I answer on the basis that this is my understanding of the concept of drive training and neutralisation. What I would enjoy is if Steve would visit here and correct me where I might be wrong, as there's always room for that to occur.

Thanks to all for your kind posts of support. I wrote a long post in response, but deleted it. It sounded morose and I didn't want that, because I don't feel it, albeit a serene sadness. Although Kal and I had a tough time last night (new meds giving her diarrhea), both she and I have been very peaceful today. I now have time away from training and this will afford me more time to spend gently with her ... just being around and being there. She likes that. (Particularly when "food" comes with it .) Pamps: If it weren't for Kal's seizures and the fact that only one nostril seems to be affected, I might have thought "not a tumour" either. Everytime I ponder on alternate possibilities, I tend to come full circle, as much as I'd like to deny it. I think Meds are helping her at the moment. It's day by day and whilst she feels comfortable, I'm greatful for each one of them. And I know that you think of us as we do of you and yours. Hoping all is well? Would like to catch up with you on that note.

In your case, Gillian, your dog has some negative values (to certain things) - consequently we need to socialise. Think of it this way: -10 .......................... 0 ............................. +10 Negative ///////////// Neutralised /////////////Positive value //////////////// (no value)/////////////// value You can take a dog from negative value to neutralised value by way of socialisation. But, once the dog perceives value beyond the "0" point, you can't go back. Where there are negative values, IMO, it is better to work forwards, even if it means gaining some positive value. In my dog's case, she began at negative value and has reached "neutralised" ..... in some things and in some cases. Occasionally, she's a tad under the "neutralisation" and occassionally, with some things, she's a tad over the "neutralisation" mark. We can discuss this further, if you like, when I see you. I'm sure Steve would approve. ;)

Ollie dog .... what a guy! Good on you, and you too, Jodie ... for all your hard work and worry.

Hi again Loraine. Whilst I haven't read all the links within the link you kindly provided, I did read the "alternatives". All the alternatives seem to relate to relief from joint problems. Given that Kal's discomfort is more likely the result of the tumour/s, I doubt the "alternatives" will target her source of pain. :rolleyes: What do you, and others, think?

Thank you Loraine. I will look into that link shortly. I told Russell I wasn't keen on Rimadyl either because I remembered it being spoken of as having some nasty side effects. Russell indicated that it was generally pretty safe although could cause stomach irritation which, if it does, is unavoidable - although making sure I give it with food should help. He certainly didn't offer/suggest any alternatives. Must admit, when I spoke to Russell, I felt Kal didn't have much longer to go, a feeling that was compounded by the way she was when I returned from training - so I figured "side effects" probably wouldn't get time to be of any trouble (could be ignorance on my part - at the time, all I wanted was for someone to help me help her and was just so relieved that I was able to speak to Russell today and get some meds for her, given that Guy is away for a week). But then, you just never know. Kal has surprised me before.

Well Kal had no seizures (that I know of) yesterday or during the night, but she didn't sleep well. Coincidental that it's only been spoken of in the last couple of days, but last night she did show signs of discomfort/pain. I rang Russell Mitten at Werribee (Kal's attending Vet prior to Guy Yates) and he was very helpful. He prescribed a Rimadyl injection for pain relief tonight, and Kal will continue on Rimadyl (tablet form) each night thereafter. This should at least keep her comfortable. He also prescribed "Bromapex" (Potassium Bromide) to add to her meals (along with the Phenobarbs she's already on) to hopefully cease any seizure activity that seems to be raising its ugly head. When I got home at about 1.00 pm today, I thought "this was it". She was so weak she barely lifted her head from her bean bag to acknowledge me. Didn't get up. I made a coffee and went and sat out with her, and when I lifted her head, it felt so weak. If she had taken her "wings" at that time, I would have completely understood .... in fact, her heart rate was low enough that I expected this to happen. The prescriptions for the drugs were (kindly) filled by my local veterinary emergency centre and Kal received the Rimadyl injection approximately 5.00 pm today. At the Vet Em. Clinic, Kal was too weak/tired to even shiver with nerves (as she normally does) and the Vet who saw us commented that she would have expected her heart rate to be higher than it was. On the good side, Kal weighed in at 31.4 kgs and the Vet who saw us commented on what good nick she was in. ;) Must say, 2 hours on and she seems to have perked up a bit and is presently outside (her choice) gnawing on her bone (on her bean bag ....... with her blanket on, of course :rolleyes:). I'm hoping she has a good night tonight. Perhaps she will be a bit more spritely tomorrow. Regardless, she will be as she feels like being. I just hope that I have been able to make her feel happier than she was today.

:rolleyes: The owner needs to look into the "cause" of the problem? If you only put a bandaid on the symptom, and don't address the cause, the behaviour is likely to manifest itself in other ways. Perhaps this is a boredom issue? Could be a separation anxiety/anxiety issue? Could be an attention seeking issue? etc. HR: How creative! ;)

A person who approached me in relation to her dog's digging issues : After asking her some questions, I said : Erny: You could try "xxxxx" Dog Owner: No, I don't want to do that. Erny: Ok. You could try "xxxxx" Dog Owner: No - that doesn't fit in with my lifestyle. Erny: What about trying "xxxxx" and "xxxxx"? Dog Owner: Nope. Erny: If you do "xxxxx" and when "yyyyy" happens, do "xxxxx". Dog Owner: Shakes head. Erny: Oh! I know! (Dog Owner gets excited!) You want one of those "on/off" switches you install on the dog's shoulder. You can turn the digging behaviour on and off with a flick of a switch! ....... Sorry, all sold out. Dog Owner: Looks at Erny, taken aback. Sees the expression on Erny's face. Then gets the message. ...... Yes, they WILL need to make an effort to address the cause of the unwanted behaviour as well as work on behaviour modification treatment. Duh.

I can understand where you're coming from and why you would want this. When Kal was doing a spot of agility, I would have enjoyed a jaunt around the obstacles in our own fashion and time as well. The problem is, not everyone is safety conscious. Not everyone thinks of the accidents that CAN happen to their dog, before it happens. Not everyone is aware that they have to think of their own dog and be aware of where others are as well. Consequently, these things usually do need to be monitored and controlled. Hence they are normally run under a class instruction environment. There is also the club's insurance to think about. Don't know how they'd stand if an incident occurred during a time of no supervision.

You trying to convince us, or Frau Rottweiler?

Oh shoot! I only just read this post. Dang it! But I don't come out much at the mo ..... looking after and monitoring Kal, who had a slight down turn last night and with her Vet away for the week, I don't know where it's going to lead. Hold that thought, though! As soon as I can, I'll be there! With a tinny or two ..... or three tucked under an arm.

On Friday just gone, Kal had another VERY tiny seizure. It was her "head tapping" one. Only lasted about 5 seconds. I noted it, but didn't think too much about it. It was the second one (that I've had opportunity to notice, anyway) in 2 weeks - each one week apart. But last night, they (the "head tapping" ones) returned a bit more strongly, and she had about 3 or 4 in succession. Each was preceded by very rapid breathing. She added one more to her repetoire: legs kicked out and body spasm. Although 'minor', it reminded me too much of a Grand Mal and makes me think they're on their way back in. I rang her Vet this morning, only to find out he's not there this week. His assistant suggested that if Kal can't wait for a week, then I need to book in and see another Vet and start again with her history. She was very reluctant to simply pass Kal's file to one of the other Vets I know Guy has spoken to about Kal - at least to see if they can help me without putting Kal through the duress of re-visiting the Vet clinic. I know her meds need adjusting .... or we might manipulate with another drug (can't remember the name) which doesn't have the same sedative effect that Phenobarbs do. (Kal doesn't need to be sedated more, if she can avoid it.) I also wanted to ask about pain relief and determine (now that some time has marched on) whether it would be warranted or recommended. I'm at a slight loss at the moment. I will take her to the local emergency clinic if I need to, but naturally don't want to. On another note - took Kal for a drive to the park. She managed a slow 10 minute walk. One small trot. Was glad to get out of the house, but was glad to get back (dinner time!)

I'm also wondering if adding Vegemite (made watery by mixing with warm water) will help disguise the smell of the MM .... and perhaps even if he can still smell it a bit, the smell of the Vegemite might overcome him enough for him not to be able to ignore eating it. Maybe do the cheese thing, then the disguise of vegemite. That's IF his system can tolerate vegemite. I'm not sure how long it takes for the cheese to affect sense of smell. I presume fairly immediately. But it might not hurt to give him some as treats tonight and then again in the morning. I'm sure Ollie dog won't mind, anyway. Good luck, Jodie. Let us know what works.

Jodie .... I don't know how well this will work, but I learnt at a recent SARDA (Search & Rescue) Seminar with "Sardog" (DOL member) that when a dog eats cheese, it affects their sense of smell. So much so that the affect can last for up to a couple of days. Don't know if you can use this information to assist you in getting Ollie not being able to smell the Marsh Mellow stuff, or even whether cheese would upset his constitution. Thought it might be worth passing on to you though.

Yes please. No. Although I've brought up the subject of 'pain' with her Vet, and we can't say there is none (how do you know if a dog has a head ache), there have been no strong outward signs indicating she is suffering any pain as such. Unless I'm being ignorant in relation to her condition? If only more people had this initial problem. (The too fast recalls, that is. Not the damage to your knees as a result! :D). Yes - they have to learn to know when to 'check' themselves on their return, don't they. Just finished training an Irish Wolf Hound - Boy! Were his recalls daunting when you could see he hadn't developed the knack of knowing when to start pulling up!

Erny searches for "eager hand up in the air" emoticon Yes, please. No - I consider that quite normal for us insane dog lovers/enthusiasts. I hate the kitchen, but spend time preparing food for my dog where there is no way I'd spend that amount of time preparing food for myself. Sorry .... notice my post is off topic. Won't do it again.

Thanks, LL. Ups and downs, good days/bad days, good nights/bad nights. All the probs relate to breathing difficulties and the disrupt it causes her rest. Generally, not too bad during the day (although I note that the noise she makes whilst breathing through her nose is becoming more evident, even when she is standing, which it never used to), but nights are often worse - particularly when she goes to bed after exertion of going to the toilet etc. Last night wasn't too bad, but the night before wasn't pleasant. I wish I could stick my hand up her nose and pull out the monster that is doing this to her. Was hoping to be able to take her for a walk to the park yesterday and/or today, but I don't think she was up to it, so we didn't go. The weather wasn't particularly pleasant either, so one way or the other, I don't think she would have enjoyed it. Although she seemed happy enough to be able to come with me for a drive on Thursday just gone. She looooooooves her meals, though. And I must admit I'm beginning to think she's verging on being a tad over weight (not quite, but nearly). Can you believe that!!? After all this time I've struggled to get weight on her. Mind you, at two HUMUNGOUS chicken fillets per day, plus a big cup of vegies (in pureed form) as well as what would be the equivalent of one third cup of rolled oats (soaked), plus omega blend oil and her holistic drops .... not to mention the odd bone every couple of days, who would be surprised. I've given up on stocking food and freezing it for me - the freezer belongs to her! Although she has her moments, her back legs don't seem to be as weak as they were not so long ago. If it wasn't for what we believe to be this damn tumour affecting her nasal cavity, I'd say we were ticking along ok. Oh - and hey, exciting that you got your lab back from OS. Boy oh boy! I bet you're one very busy person of late! Will be looking forward to when I feel I can take leisure time to come over and check him out. And have a wee drink or two, of course! ETA: Kal has forgiven me for speaking to her sternly about her whining the other day. She still whines to be let out the front door to go to the toilet, so no damage done there. Mind you, she whines at me for everything else too. But I don't care. :D

Jodie .... my heart feels for you. Really sorry about this downturn and hope that Ollie dog pulls through and out of it soon. One plus is that he settled in a shorter period of time than he has before. Must admit it brought a knowing smile to my face when you mentioned how, regardless of illness, he was still up (and waking you up) early looking for a walk. Kal's a bit like that - can be on the doorstep of the rainbow bridge, but come meal time and we somehow find all this strength and get pushy for something to eat and hey presto, the glint's back in her eyes knowing there'll be another meal to come later . Ah well, whatever keeps them going for however long they want to. If anyone can dig out extra information regarding meds etc., I'm sure Helen can. She still continues to amaze me with her wealth of information and knowledge of where to go to find it and then decipher it. Helen - what a Godsend you are, and knowing that you are occupied nursing your own sick ones as well. Bless you. Warm thoughts for you all ..... Jodie, Ollie, Helen, Oscar, Lucinda. And also for Pampa and her girl (I haven't heard of any further news yet). And to Rusky and Goldie .... I hope she's doing ok now too. And for all and any others who are going through these rough times and travelling these rocky roads.

Helen ..... what a trying time! But what a fantastic result with the holistic care you're providing. And good for Oscar - he's really putting in the effort with you, isn't he? Like Jodie, I hope you and Oscar get to enjoy many more "Not Today's", and hopefully without the turmoil that day obviously would have caused to your emotions. Glad to hear Lucinda is doing well. Good for her. That in itself must be a tremendous support and help to you. Sending you and your furkids warm wishes for health and happy days. Stay strong.

My understanding is that the nasal spray vaccine is "live" and that you also have to be careful that another dog is not close by within "x" (?) period of time, as they can otherwise pick up CC from droplets which might still remain in the recently vaccinated dog's nasal tubes (?) or on its nose. Not sure the truth in this though.

These set backs are so frustrating, Jodie. As you would know, I fully understand and empathise. You are doing so well with Ollie and you are a tower of strength and patience for him. Good for you - your journey with Ollie helps to inspire me in my journey with Kal. For this, I thank you. But I am sorry that Ollie isn't feeling the greatest and do hope that you can stop his tummy upset so he can finish this present chemo protocol. I so wish you both well. You've both come so far. Come on Ollie, come on, come on ......

Amen to that!