Erny

Ooooooooooo ........ bribery.

Bless the guardian angel that is looking over Ollie ..... great news Jodie. Go Ollie!

Cough, splutter .... present company excepted, of course HR. ;)

Glad you're out there and enjoying your new puppy, Wyv.

No - that's not really what I meant. When I have issues with a particular exercise/command, I don't work to fix it by keeping it attached to another command (unless the issue is somehow related). If the problem is "sit" sliding to drop (as is yours), I might spend a session simply on "sits". All being well, I might throw in a "drop" but the reward for it will be a lesser one (unless, of course, he astounds you with the best ever air 'splat' type drop! ;)) than as for the "sit". All you're doing here is imprinting (for the time being) that "sits" are more important .... more worthwhile for your dog. So he'd prefer to "sit". Of course, you need to return to the "drops" and give them the reward they do deserve. But it shouldn't take more than one, two or three sessions (in general) for the problem to resolve and for the dog to show a clearer understanding. And then I do lots of "sit"; "drop"; "heel" and/or "stand" in sequence. (Not necessarily in that order or always in one particular order.) This helps the dog learn to really listen to the commands being issued, and differentiate one from the other.

I thought it might have been because she hasn't been trained in "drive".

I remember those days too, Noisy. Although those guys that I knew of then weren't exactly concerned about riding "skills" .... more cowboy types. ;) Yep ... won't happen again though, will it? (much)

And the more you learn, the more you learn there is so much more to learn. Now there's a thought. ;) You mean like "Workplace Certificate IV"? Done that. Now lecture on certain dog related topics. This is my most favourite passion, I must admit. But I do get a big buzz out of helping people re-unite or re-harmonise with their dogs, as well as achieve the joy of progressive success. Effectively, that's what the NDTF course does. IMO, anything less than what it teaches is inadequate to achieve a good, all round knowledge of dogs, dog behaviour and dog training techniques. All of which knowledge is necessary to be able to deal with many walks of behaviour and behaviour problems.

I was nearly going to post the same thoughts, Noisy. I do find a lot (not all, mind) of the men who do stick with it are gay, though. Wonder if that makes any difference to the theory?

Yeah, well ...... I've had my dog observe me doing the dishes and washing the floors for 6 years now. Hasn't rubbed off on her yet. ;)

Oh - forgot to add something. With dogs who have a tendancy to slide to drop when they should be in "sit", I reduce the level of reward they would otherwise receive for executing the "drop" on command, and make the reward for the "sit" a higher value reward. I do this until the problem has been resolved, and then level out the reward values.

FP - National Dog Trainers Federation This is the link to NDTF website. It is an intensive course, packed with a tonne of information and practical experience training. Yes, CC - it is a lot of money (not to suggest it's not worth it). I originally did the course to help me learn to understand more deeply the behaviour issues my dog had when I adopted her. Not only did this help with the progress in my dog's behavioural rehabilitation, but from there I became a trainer. I have furthered my studies since and as a result have taken a completely different career change from what I used to do. The only thing that disappoints me is that they have run out of new courses for me to do (for the moment, anyway ). So I guess what started as a 'self-interest' exercise, has become a fully fledged occupational career opportunity. And I gotta say, I absolutely love it and haven't looked back once. :rolleyes: For me, it is all money well worth spending. It is a personal choice as to what you want to do with it, though.

Ticks on both counts. You'd still be welcome to join the First Timer's program, L & P - you would learn/see first hand that your "criteria" is easily met. By the tone of your posts, though, I doubt we will see you. The main thing is that you enjoy your training experiences and achieve the successes you desire. In this, I wish you all the best.

FP - not all community clubs are "bad" (per sei) but I have come to know of many who lack in a broad range of knowledge of canine behaviour and that in itself can lead to difficulties. There are numerous people who I have assisted and who have come from community based schools. Either their club was unwilling to help or in the absence of knowing how, ignored the problems as if they didn't exist. But there are also many people who successfully train their dogs to a level they are happy with and don't necessarily endure the problems which would make them entertain the need for higher level expertise. There are also a few very good, knowledgeable people at Community based schools. The problem is knowing where and who they are. In answer to your question (in quotes, above) .... I guess, if the school you're with is not to your liking ...... you move house? Sorry - said with tongue in cheek. I know it's not that easy and I don't intend to be flippant. Another alternative would be to spend the time to BECOME an instructor. Given my previous post directed to CC, it will sound like I'm on the beat for NDTF course sales .... there's certainly nothing in it for me (other than I get to meet you ). But maybe doing the course and building your own personal skills and knowledge will sufficiently allow you to pick and chose how to work your dog at dog school, without relying on trusting the tuition being given at the time. It gives you the confidence to chose whether you wish to take it or leave it.

CC - in response to your post (#43). You sound like the sort of person who would be great as an instructor (if you're not already?). Level headed and reasonable. States your mind, but sees the big picture. Ever think of doing the NDTF course?

Thanks, gsdog2. In the case I speak of, the dog did not receive a "correction" in the technical sense. He did feel the pressure of the collar and to this he responded by not proceeding with the unwanted drop. The method could be used for the delivery of a correction, but only on a dog where the "sit or drop/stay" is a known command. As to how well and timely that correction could be delivered when using this method (actually, I wouldn't even call it a method .... perhaps more a compromise in the absence of being able to do anything else) might be questionable, due to the interference the fence pole can cause on the lead. In the 'early stages' and/or when there is an issue to sort out, yes, I generally keep eye contact to a certain degree. A lot depends on the dog, though. Some dogs are easily submissive, and I find that direct eye contact can actually cause the dog to slide to a drop. I do speak in an "up" tone (not excitedly, but happy/nice). I'll give one example, so you might get an idea. However I work differently with each individual dog, so this is not set in concrete. Let's say my dog will hold a sit for 1 minute, but then slides to drop. In the one session, I will "sit" my dog, walk to the distance I know he is fine with also. Use the "nice" voice and after 15 seconds, walk back in, give the dog a small treat. At the time of giving the dog the treat, I might say (in a light voice) "sit" again and "good" (just a re-confirmation he's doing a good job), then I return to where I was. This is done quite fluently - no big pauses or remaining with the dog. Repeat again. Release and reward your dog here, if you think you need to (as I said, I vary things such as this, depending on the dog) so as to grab an opportunity for big time fun reward, especially if the dog is fidgety or looks like he might be thinking about dropping. If you haven't released, then the next repeat will be similar, but look to achieve a time element of (eg) 20 seconds. THEN DEFINATELY release the dog and have fun. If you did release the dog after the first repeats of (eg) 15 seconds as described above, then re-set the dog up, do one more exercise at 15 seconds and do the next one at (eg) 20 seconds. Then release. Over a couple of sessions, I'll work this up to the 1 minute mark, and then beyond. Doing it this way (ie by going backwards in the time element to start with) allows me to fix any error that might have been made in the earlier training to have created the problem/confusion in the first place. All this while, I am watching the dog - his face, body etc. This is what generally tells me when I should release or whether I might be able to achieve an improved time (or distance, if that's what I'm training for) element. When the dogs I train are more reliable in this exercise, I introduce things such as looking away, turning away etc. etc. I really don't like "training over the net" - I probably don't have the right talent for that, simply because WHAT I do and WHEN, really depends on the dog I'm working with at the time. Hope you could follow this post and that you've not gone to sleep by the time you got to the end.

CC - A very fairminded approach, CC.

L & P. Your posts do not indicate/reveal that you fully understand what you speak of. The forthrightness of your opinion when you don't truley know the extent of the nature of the dog or circumstances, and your judgement without openmindedness to trial, would probably not suit the generally very open attitude of the wonderful members of the training school in any event. However, if you were to change your mind and dare to enquire and learn of the school and its activities, I know you would still be made to feel welcome.

Oonga .... you could well be right re the hearing, and I think it is always a worthwhile thing to check, even if to remove the possibility of doubt. Fairly easy to check, anyway, so might as well. And when I do hit the RC at KCC, I will expect great things from you. I am more than sure you are capable.

Whilst that could always be a possibility, Oonga, I doubt it in this case. I expect the OP would have noticed other nuances in areas other than obedience at training school and intermittantly at shows (indoors). I think there is a clue in what the OP said in a further post, though ..... R: Rave - I haven't seen you train so I have refrained from comment, for the most part, here. My thoughts relate to the dog's motivation levels. When I'm working a dog, if the dog receives a correction, I will go to town and back to give it something of value once the dog complies and is released. Whatever the level of correction, I look to the reward to be on a considerably higher level than that. Some dogs are more difficult to motivate than others .... I know that for fact from experience. And it's not necessarily that your dog received a correction or that hand signals were removed. I recently worked with a very laid back bully breed dog. So laid back you would be forgiven for thinking lazy. I used to work this dog first up in the very icey cold mornings ..... because it proved to be a great warm up exercise for me (to the point of sweating, even though the mornings were only 4 or 5C.) Finally ended up with an extrordinarily fantastic recall from him (amongst other skills), although his heel work was more challenging. Check in with HR and Haven - they will help you work out what and how to motivate him the best. This won't necessarily mean the "easiest" where you're concerned, and will probably require a good input of energy for you. A great way to get and/or keep fit, for sure! With the hand signals, seeing as he was taught his commands with them, it is desireable to teach the dog independance from them as well. To do this give the dog the verbal command, wait a moment but if no compliance appears forthcoming inside that (very short) moment, give the hand signal. What you are doing here is building anticipation. This does not occur when the hand signal is given simultaneous to the verbal - in this latter scenario, the dog pairs the verbal AND hand signal as the cue to the action required. I think Haven might have already mentioned/explained this in an earlier post? Don't despair. I would be extremely surprised if your dog has been "ruined". You will be able to work this one through, of that I'm positive. ETA: Oonga .... me thinks you sell yourself short by saying you don't know anything about dog training. Don't be so modest.

I recently had to overcome this very problem with a dog I was working with. I was working on my own, so I had him sit near a fence, next to the fence pole. I threaded the long line over the pole and held the end in my hand. When the dog went to slide to the drop, I was able to prevent it by holding the lead and I then rewarded him for holding the sit. (The dog had no choice - I set him up to "win".) The dog understood and after that (I only had to do it twice) we progressed in leaps and bounds.

Try giving more positive feedback while he's sitting and BEFORE he thinks about sliding to the drop. Return more frequently (at first) - give him a treat whilst he's in a sit/stay, and return to your 'point'. Repeat a few times, and release. Reduce the time element - it sounds like it's a bit too much for whatever reason (maybe pushed to get there too fast?) Give the feedback regularly, gradually putting back the time factor. Also - watch the tone of your voice. Keep it light.

I would suggest either the Springvale Centre (now at Noble Park) or Boronia. Both run on Sunday afternoons. From where you are, the Noble Park venue might be closer, although I tend to find that time-wise, both are much of a muchness because of the different roads and traffic conditions. It takes me about the same time to get to Scoresby (which runs on Sunday mornings) too. So, it would seem you have some choices - ones that you can make and vary, depending on whether you've had a hard night partying the night before and whether you need a sleep in or not!

.......... or temperament issues. What Centre, Ruffles? Don't have to post here - PM me if you prefer. ;)