Erny

Deanne - Scope has taken on two dogs each of which many people would not. Rehoming would be difficult, and if not for Scope, could possibly have been put to sleep by now. Yes - Scope could be seriously bitten by either one or the other. She knows that and works to the enth degree to not only avoid that but simultaneously to try to make it better. You may well have titled qualifications in human psychology, but Scope has a reasonably good grounding in the psychology of dogs .... after all, this is what the whole topic (and for the most part, the Dogzonline forum) is about. It's not about the appropriate or inappropriate interactions between two human beings, which would be more up your ally, perhaps. She has her own qualifications pursuant to a dog training course she undertook and continues to further her education with a view to finding answers for these problematic dogs. I am still interested in reading your response to your idea of the appropriate and effective application of negative reinforcement in a situation where you are aggressed upon by a dog.

Go Ollie! Doin' well, lad! ..... although it might be better if you back off on the destruction of those european pillows . Good to hear your news, Jodie. All the best and fingers crossed for some steady time in "wellness mode".

Deanne ..... imagine a dog that is threatening you with some pretty serious, teeth gnashing aggression. Would you please give us an example of the form of negative reinforcement you would apply in that instance? Lets assume you don't have a lead or collar on the dog. Laws of learning = every behaviour has a consequence. I don't condone hitting/punching dogs either, but if a dog has a go at me in aggression, and I think it will benefit by showing the consequence, even if that's a punch/whack (in the absence of being able to do much else) then I will react that way. Not violence - but catching the dog in the act - at least I'd have a chance of nipping the behaviour in the bud, right there and then. IMO, that would be better for not only me, but also for the dog. In the context of what this thread is about (ie punched a dog for re-directing aggression to the owner), I think your use of the word "violence" is anthropomorphic, or at least somewhat hysterical. However, in direct response to your statement above, whether issues are solved or not depends on why the dog was aggressive.

Wyv began this thread and wrote it with the tone of humour and light. When I read it, I was personally delighted at the enthusiasm that was shining through and was cheered at news of Lane's training progress. For those who may not be aware, Lane became ill very quickly and crossed the Rainbow Bridge today. HERE's the link to Lane's quick but sad story for those who might wish to read and provide their support and sentiments. Wyv - I know that your loss is great, but cherish that Lane came into your life and the experiences and knowledge you have sought and gained as a result. I hope this is of some comfort to you at some stage and that, because of Lane, you will be able to pass on the expertise your knowledge has granted you, to another lucky dog who will have the good fortune of becoming a member of your household.

Wyv - I am so very very sorry for your loss. Words seem so insufficient and ineffectual at this time, but, when you're ready, I hope you find comfort in the support they represent. My sincerest condolences. RIP Lane ..... I'm glad to have had the opportunity to meet you and work with you, if only for a short time.

Jaybeece -

Wyv ..... I'm truley sorry for your news, and for Lane. He's such a lovely dog and he is lucky to have parents such as yourself and your OH. All the best - I remain with fingers crossed and heartfelt wishes for some good in amongst the bad and hope that things can be turned around to help Lane.

Jaybeece .... if my writings count for anything - I promise you can take HR at his word. I've seen HR with his dogs. He adores them and they him. In fact, in the years I've known HR, I haven't seen a smack or hit yet - so I know he's not suggesting the action of a hit/smack is a common aspect. I will also ask, HR - if you EVER are around when/if a dog has latched onto me, I really won't care how you get the dog off me, just get it off as quickly as possible AND with the least amount of damage TO ME. Please.

Yes, that is a very different situation and it would be totally understandable. But punching into a dog out of your own frustration is never OK. My understanding of Scope's original post was that she punched the dog because it re-directed aggression towards her. I am not a believer in "hitting" as part of a training regime, but in the absence of being able to do anything else, I would strike out at a dog who aggressed towards me. Of course, whether or not I took any action at all would depend on whether I felt sufficiently confident that the dog would not rally to the challenge. IMO, Scope has been very patient with both dogs, given their problematic natures, and she has dedicated herself to learning as much as is possible about how to resolve their issues. I have met Hudson and I can say first hand that working with him has been one very major task for Scope, that many others here would feign away from. Keisha has her issues too, and these may well be exacerbated by all the changes Scope has recently made to lifestyle, residency and training methodology .... but that is not to say they will not be overcome. Bravo, Scope for your perserverance and courage in posting your thoughts and feelings. You weren't seeking people to support your actions, this was clear - you were venting your frustration (better to do so on the keyboard than elsewhere ) and asking for help. IMO those who wish to run you down and tred on you for that must secretly admire you for your honesty and courage. To everyone who has further chastised Scope for something she's already acknowledged as not necessarily ideal, you are simply flogging the willing horse and I believe you owe her an apology.

I spoke to Guy about the liver biopsy. He's informed me that whilst Cushing's does/can cause liver degeneration (of some sort ... can't remember the actual words he used), taking a biopsy of the liver and finding it degenerated is not in itself a conclusive indicator of Cushing's. He suggests the tests we have conducted are the mainstay tests for Cushing's and given that all have returned negative, he is as confident as anyone could be that Kal's condition is not Cushingoid. Gotta say, this makes sense to me and that I'm tending to believe it's not Cushing's either. Bummer.

Deanne - sorry to hear of your dog's troubles. I have no helpful info to offer you, other than to tell you that you will get used to giving the injections and eventually think nothing of it. It will become routinish and you'll look back and wonder why you were so concerned about giving them. I know this, because I still recall how I felt about giving my horses injections - eventually, it was nothing. In fact, I felt quite chuffed about the fact that I could do it.

Hey Pamps .... standing by for some positive news. Our household has all their fingers, toes and paws crossed for you and your girl.

Good luck, Wyv and Lane. Hope to hear everything's gone well and that soon Lane will be up and bouncing back into drive training. Fingers crossed for you both.

Hhhhhmmmm (erny searches for 'pondering' emoticon) ..... Thanks guys - I will follow this through out of interest and let you know what I find out, information wise.

Thanks Abs ..... Touch wood, Kal hasn't had a Grand Mal for the last 1.5 weeks. In fact, the last one (which was the fourth one and was within just over 24 hours from the previous one) was on the Saturday I started her on the phenobarbs. I plan to wait out the honeymoon period (ie 2 weeks) for the pheno's to kick in and then see how she is. I will be calling Guy Yates around then, as he requested I do, to discuss further. I imagine he'll give me some direction, if necessary, at that point. Had an interesting conversation with a dog trainer colleague tonight. She had me email a summary of Kal's history and current status to her. She took it to her Vet (well known and respected by not only her, but also here on DOL). He has suggested that Cushing's could still be the culprit and that a liver biopsy will evidence this one way or the other. Has anyone else heard of this? It wasn't something the USA Vet specialist mentioned, that I recall .... although I will need to refer back to his email to double check. In fairness, there are some details this Vet may not be aware of. But he has invited me to telephone him. As he doesn't practice on Wednesdays, I will do so on Thursday. I'm not excited nor becoming any more hopeful, but it will be interesting to hear what he has to say. I am greatful if for nothing else, the interest my colleague has shown and the willingness and interest her Vet has indicated - even so far as to simply discussing the matter with her. He has also mentioned that Kal is in good hands with Russell Mitten and Guy Yates. Kal had quite a number of mini-seizures over a period of an hour or two tonight, but then she settled down into a heavy slumber. I'm about to settle in for a bout of heavy slumber myself (hopefully :D). Thanks to all for your thoughts. I have a couple more things up my sleeve to 'try out' (not looking for cure .... just improvement. Worth a shot. Won't know if I don't try, anyhow) and I will let you know what the results are, if I decide to go down those tracks. One relates to more wholistic care/advice .... the other sounds a bit more 'out there' :p. Ok, so I hate leaving stones unturned :p.

Wyv .... really sorry to hear not only what you've gone through with the Vets (and I promise you, I KNOW FULL WELL the run around, stress and waste of healing time THAT can be, having dotted around from Vet to Vet myself for my girl) and that Lane is not his usual vital self. I hope the test results prove to reveal something that is less serious and that requires only simple treatment to cure. Fingers crossed and best wishes for some good news. Edited for spelling error.

Hi Rusky - thanks for asking and thinking about us. Well, I was a bit hopeful that the anti-convulsant drugs were finally kicking in (she's only been on them for 1 week 4 days) as we had two full nights (Saturday and Sunday night) with not sleep interruption. Well, I did, anyway. During the day, for all the time I could be with Kal, there was only one little teeny weeny seizure on each of Saturday and Sunday, that I could detect. Maybe she had more while I was sleeping, because they are so small and of short duration, it's difficult to tell. Last night, however, I had to get her up from the cushion in the loungeroom to go to the toilet so we could go to bed. Maybe I picked a bad time to coax her up. I find, of late, I need to actually support her up, as she's so reluctant to move when she's so relaxed. (Although during the day, she has no trouble getting up and down - save that she's not as strong in doing it.) I did think of leaving her there, but I do prefer her to be next to me in the bedroom so I can be on hand in the event of a more serious seizure. Anyway - back to the point. I finally got her up and she had a funny turn. Don't really know what it was, but she had this urge to try to run. She seemed disorientated .... heading in the wrong direction for the toilet, and I physically had to steer her. In the cramped area of the front door (with my sister's dog Monty getting all excited and barking ) I couldn't keep up with her and had to run after her to make sure she didn't fall (her legs weren't quite her own and she was very off balance and wobbly). But that seemed to last momentarily and she came back from her wee quite normally. She had another two or three of her little mini-seizures today. I was disappointed, because I thought the drugs were combatting them. But hey, maybe the phenobarbitone needs the full 2 weeks to level things out. It's day by day, Rusky .... I'm not sure for how long. We're ok, though - just getting through the rest of the week as best as we can. I'm mindful of not making Kal live a hellish life, but don't wish to make the move to stop it, too soon. Waiting, hoping and praying for the Phenobarbs to make things a bit better. In amongst all of this, she did manage a walk in the park yesterday. She was a bit sluggish and we didn't go very far, but she did manage to trot every now and again. I'm hoping the Phenobarbs will grant her a few more of these better days and park visits.

Phew! So pleased to hear the temps down . Ollie has so many people rooting for him, he's got to be a winner.

As far as this element is concerned, IMO, other people ... ESPECIALLY trainers (who should know better) shouldn't be feeding your dog without your permission. To begin with, how do they know your dog doesn't suffer upset stomach with certain foods? I have fed treats to clients' dogs I work with, but only if I'm working on an issue (eg. fear based) and only after I have asked the owners if it's ok to feed a food treat. Many people at the Club for whom I train practice in "food refusal" training, so I always ask what they're dog's eating "password" is, as well. If the trainers were worth their stuff, they shouldn't pass any judgement on you if you simply tell them "no, my training doesn't comprise of other people feeding my dog treats". But if this is a problem for you, then perhaps tell them some treats cause him an upset stomach so you only allow him treats to be fed from yourself. Personally, I don't think you should have to go this far - he's your dog afterall. This is always going to occur when you chose a different style of training from that which a Club offers. You could try speaking to the people who run the Club, explain your style of training and ask if they'd mind you working around (but outside of) the class, in your own fashion. If you can demonstrate the distance you require and the control you have, perhaps they won't mind. Of course, this means you won't really receive the benefits of the class instructor , who will be instructing in the Club's own methodology, and not one you've necessarily chosen (although you will probably pick up a training tip or two or three, which you can adapt to fit into your own training regime). At the Club I train at, we have had the occasional person who wishes to train their own specific way, but wish to use the class environment to further their dog's focus and obedience skills. Provided it is not interruptive to the class and provided the dog is under control, there is generally no objection, although of course they still do need to join the school as a member and observe certain protocols etc.

Dan - .... thanks

You definately need to consult with a behaviourist (not of the kind you've already seen, obviously. Unfortunately, they have a "one way fits all" type training system which IMO simply doesn't cut it). I would not suggest rolling on her back and seeking a tummy rub is necessarily her being submissive to you. Could well be that she is exhibiting the roll over to instigate something from you that she wants. Behaviours should be on YOUR terms, not the dog's. Whilst you are waiting for a visit from a behaviourist more qualified to assist you, I'd suggest you: Practice the "NILIF" program. (ie Nothing In Life Is Free). This means your dog gets nothing (at all, not even a pat) without doing something for you first. K9 Force's TOT (Triangle of Temptation) program. It is "pinned" at the top of the Training Forum page. Both of the above are non-challenging, but heirarchy status emphasising (for you) and will do no harm, only good.

Nekhbet - your post of 15th June with all the photo's. Is the third photo of a Ridgy, do you think? Can't see the tail, and the ears are a bit blurred in the photo. But the rest reminds me of ridginess.

Your mere thoughts for best wishes are useful in themselves, Malleerr. Thank you. Going over to Kal to give her that special hug from you. :D

Hi Scottie. Thanks for asking. After a rather rough night (more mini-seizures, but unpleasant ... seemed to involve breathing difficulties too) Kal has had some peaceful sleep. Unfortunately, that's not making for too much "quality" at the moment, as, apart from eating, sleeping is what she does mainly at the moment. Hence I'm really hoping the phenobarb's kick in and make a difference there. She doesn't have a lot of 'umph' left for things such as walks. Doesn't give me the excited tail wag and little jump for joy when I say the "drive" or "car" word. In fact, not much tail wagging has occurred over the last couple of days. But that could be just for now. Time will tell. At the moment, she's tucked under her blanket, on her Snooza Bed mattress, on the floor next to me. Snoozing peacefully, for the time being (touch wood). Time to put her chicken fillet on to cook. She'll like that. (Monty is enjoying these feeds too .... he normally gets fed once a day at his own home, but he's been getting a small treat/feed each time I feed Kal. Makes up for not as much exercise and attention as he would normally get, given the circumstances.) ETA: Watching and learning the 'patterns' that are occurring over time, I note that around 11.00 pm seems to be about the worst time for discomfort and restlessness for Kal. I don't know why. Maybe I need to give the other 1/2 tab of phenobarb a bit later. She normally has it at the time she gets fed tea (approx 5-6pm). Morning dose is at about 7.30-8.30am.

Bugger it. I was so pleased for Ollie and for you that things had been going so well. Temperature dropping thoughts coming Ollie's way from me. I truley do hope this upset is short lived, and that Ollie's health re-balances and gets to stay home with you.