Kelpie-i

Absolutely LM, I agree that there must be someone controlling the activities of our companion dogs at home. We see and hear all to often the problems that come with leaving dogs to their own devices and with no training or guidance. This lends to another type of discussion to the wonder that is our domestic dog. BTW LM, he used to race sled dogs for 12 years, even winning some much coveted prizes. If you're into sled dog racing, I would recommend reading his book as he has some very interesting insights into the "ideal" team. Anthony, there are those who believe that the Coyote is the ancestor of the dog and not the wolf. But if memory serves me right and I'll have to read through my notes to double check, that Coyote DNA is not perfectly matched to the dog like the wolf DNA is, which renders this belief as perhaps incorrect.

CORRECTION...... I have found the part in the book which states the survival of the today dog if humans perished. "In short, except in rare instances, if all dogs were to die, human life would not be threatened, whereas if all humans died, the domestic dog could not surivive in its present form" LM, here is some further statements on the supposed social hierarchy theory: "dogs hardly need a social organisation to feed on discarded chicken bones or mango skins. For dogs, other dogs are no help when it comes to feeding themselves or feeding pups. In fact, other dogs are not only no help in finding garbage, but they are chief competitor for a limited quantify of food. Thus, packing behaviours are not to a village dog's selectived advantage. There are few benefits in getting together to feed and no motivation to feed someone else's pups: Remebering that our domestic dogs live in the same sense as the early village dog did.

Dogs rock, again you make very valid points...I only quote what Ray states. I will have to sift through my pages and pages of notes in order to validate his sentiments.

LM Again you miss the point.....we are talking if ALL humans perished from the earth....not dogs living in remote villages. And yes there is a high mortality rate amongst today's village dogs due to diseases but others only survive purely because of the food provided to them by the villagers which allows them to survive and reproduce but not to the alarmingly high number that we have here in the Western world.

LM, you may be missing the point YES your dogs are "hunting"....chasing, catching and eating. But they are doing so purely for the thrill and reward value, not for survival purposes. If your dog's were left on their own, they would not choose to hunt over scavenging to survive as this is too costly energy wise. It is not in their genes to hunt to survive....it is in their genes to display hunting motor patterns.

Rusky, this is where Coppinger's theory on domestication is very different to that of Darwin's and then later Lorenz's (who admitted he was incorrect). He does not believe that humans turned wolves into hunting dogs by merely stealing wolf pups from the den and "training" them as this is virtually impossible. I have the answer to this but it would take me another whole day to write it out. It makes a whole heap of sense. You can read most of Ray's theories in his book "Dogs" but if you ever get the chance to go and participate in one of his lectures, then I would highly recommend it. Pssst....just a secret....he is coming to Australia in November 09.

Really valid point Dogs rock and I would agree that the more savvy dogs would survive a little longer than those "pampered" ones but eventually diseases and natural death (perhaps even becoming the hunted) would wipe out all dogs.

LM..describe the social hierarchy in your household and how you feel it benefits the survival of the group as a whole....just curious! Yes they do hunt....but not for survival purposes....more for the thrill (or work) only. As previously mentioned the benefit/cost ratio to hunt to survive is not in the dog's best interest.

I'm not sure LM.....this would then lead back to "survival of the pack" which is not what our dogs are about. They dont need a social hierarchy since they do not pack to survive. What they need is the will to survive individually and to do whatever they can to get food or whatever else they require to survive for themselves. There is no need for a social hierarchy when you are looking out for number 1. As Ray puts it...(not verbatim)...If all the dogs in the world died, we humans would not be affected and would survive nonetheless. However if all the humans in the world died, then eventually so would all the dogs. LM, yes they are doing this in order to feed themselves (as individuals)...not for the survival of the group. The hunting motor patterns remain in all dogs, although altered, so yes..your dogs would chase a running rabbit and may even eat it, but they would not do so in order for their group's sole purpose of survival. It would be more for the thrill of the chase and kill....and perhaps something tasty at the end of it. Your dogs would still choose to scavenge over chasing to survive as this is a better benefit/cost ratio of surviving.

Some great questions Cosmolo and I am not too sure I really know the answers. To "pack" in the true sense of the word is not genetically hard-wired in dogs, although to survive is. In order for a group of dogs to form hunting packs as the wolf to survive, would probably mean that they have exhausted all scavenging efforts.l Although because of the scavenging, "parasitic" nature of the dog, it would not be the same as a pack of wolves, who pack and hunt for the survial of their group as a whole. Not sure if this has answered this....or even if this is correct?? I'm not sure they actually would....they are so far removed from their original ancestor the wolf that they are a completely different animal... Pretty much like we are completely different to the monkey, we no longer hang off trees and pick fleas off each other!

Warning....very long post...best you grab a cuppa and pull up a comfy chair before reading Okay, for those of you who were curious in my new beliefs into “pack” existence of the dog, here is a very brief account of how it goes. This information is based on the 3 day seminar I recently attended at Wolf Park (US) with Biologist and Ethologist, Prof. Ray Coppinger. In order for the information to flow and so that you guys get the full picture of where it all heads, I will need to start from the start….I mean the very start….the domestication of the dog! I’ll start during the Neolithic period around 4000 to 2200BC (late stone age): wolves with genetic high avoidance thresholds (ie genetically less fearful) scavenged around the rubbish dumps of the newly settled and developed villages. I start with this period purely because this was when the changes to the wolf started to occur, however wolves would scavenge from the nomadic Mesolithic era people (middle stone age) before that. Ok back to Neolithic times…..over the next number of generations, these wolves began to morph in size i.e. becoming smaller animals with leaner body masses in order to accommodate/adapt to their new niche environments. This was probably due to the fact that their original large body mass size was not conducive to survival in this new environment, therefore only those animals with the ability to adapt survived. Please do not mistake this for “survival of the fittest” as this is not what this is about. It was more a case of “survival of the most adaptive”....fitness had nothing to do with it. There were many “fit” wolves, but with genetically low avoidance thresholds, who survived quite well doing what they did but they never evolved into a different animal. This is explained in Ray's "benefit/cost" ratio element and he proves Darwin’s theory of wolf/dog domestication as being incorrect. Even Konrad Lorenz himself when visited by Ray Coppinger years ago stated...”everything I ever wrote about dog domestication is wrong”. These morphing wolves no longer needed to hunt for food since it was available in abundance from the dumps, although that is not to say that they lost all ability to hunt. From the village rubbish dumps, they ate left over animal carcasses, human feces as well as their own (which is where our dogs get copraphagia tendencies from). The “wolves” were now becoming scavengers and searched for food around the dumps to feed themselves, not hunting in a pack formation as the rest of the other wolves continued to do. Finally over a few more generations (?number unknown), the village dog was formed (ie very early Proto-dog, and very likely, the ancestor of our domestic dogs today) I will refer to these as P-dogs for carpotunnel’s sake. These village p-dogs dogs were now true scavengers and continued to hang around the village rubbish dumps to feed. There they also mated, had their litters etc etc. But they did not “pack”, rather a loose community if you like who hung around together and survived thanks to the villagers. To understand that this is NOT a pack is to understand that to Pack is to get together for the hunt. Any animal that hunts for food for survival “packs” together to chase and bring down the prey and consume it. Our modern day dogs do not hunt for their food, therefore they do not scientifically “pack”. They do, however, still retain hunting motor patterns (prey drives), although drastically altered from breed to breed due to artificial selection from humans. The original P-dog retained all of its hunting motor patterns, but after settling into their new environments, no longer had any use for them. Anyway, back to the Neolithic times….so over time the P-dogs were very slowly being accepted by the villagers, although it was most likely the children who initiated this “acceptance” by playing and feeding their "favoured" dog. By now the dog was no longer living a commensal (beneficial to just one party) existence amongst the villagers. The relationship between human and dog had begun to form in a symbiotic sense e.g. the humans provided food (rubbish) for the dogs and the dogs cleaned the rubbish areas as well as keeping predators at bay. This was the very start of the domestication of the dog. Okay so now....Ray's beliefs are that our domestic dogs of today are direct descendent of the early P-dog and as such is more a scavenger than a pack animal. In fact he lovingly refers to dogs as “parasites”. As mentioned to “pack” or show pack behaviour is only scientifically correct when we refer to the hunt for food, which both the proto-dog ancestor AND our modern dog of today did not and do not do. If you left a dog to fend for himself, he would most likely go back to his ancestor’s scavenging ways….searching the streets for food, perhaps chasing a bird or 2…he may even meet some other “stray” dogs along the way and join forces, but by and large, he would be searching/scavenging….not hunting…for food, for the Hunt is to chase down prey, kill and consume as a group and for the benefit of the group. Okay...I hear you say..."but what about those rogue dogs who roam in “packs” and chase down sheep and other livestock and kill it". This is most certainly a form of Pack behaviour but for these dogs it’s more the thrill of the kill, rather than to hunt and catch prey to survive. This, again, is the altered hunting motor pattern. Further, most of these rogue dogs are “owned” by people therefore they don’t live in a situation where Pack hunting behaviour is beneficial to their existence, but rather the innate motor pattern that is played out for the sake of a bit of fun…..boredom busting! Most of our dog’s will show some form of this motor pattern at some stage, ie. stalking birds, chasing Frisbee, tug of war. Hunting (prey drive) motor pattern sequences vary from breed to breed. These motor pattern sequences were selected for by very early "breeders" for the purpose of either stock guarding or chasing (yes the very first “breed” of dogs were the LGDs and the herders!). Phew…..did I say I would keep it brief???!!! Therefore, what you see in your multi-dog households is NOT pack behaviour as this would infer that they hunt together for the survival of group, but rather symbiotic “community” and scavenger based existence just like their P-dog ancestors....each dog is there for their own existence and survival.....not for the survival of the other dogs in the household. Therefore, dogs do not have an innate “pack” existence. Some of you may already know this information, some of you may agree and some of you won’t....whatever your belief, it sure makes for good discussion!

LOL Jesomil, I would end up typing about 4 pages worth of stuff. I'll type up something over the next few days if I get the chance...very interesting stuff!

I USED to believe that ALL dogs had an innate pack structure existence....but after returning from a seminar in the States with Ray Coppinger, that has changed some of my beliefs on this so I won't go down the "pack" theory for this one I agree with PF's statement, this is not a "I'm protecting you" action, but rather, "I'm protecting myself".

Casnpete, most puppies will have some form of "the runs" upon coming to a new home from the breeders. This can be mainly due to change of diet, a little stress from being taken away from the litter and mum and getting used to new surroundings. It does usually subside within a week or two, and if you are happy with the Science Diet and she is thriving on it, then no need to change. You can use any form of treats but perhaps nothing too heavy at this stage. Perhaps some dried liver treats or even schmakos, you can graduate to more yummier treats as she gets older ie small pieces of cut up Luncheon or devon meat etc. Just be careful on how many treats you give her so that you don't fill her up on these. I never recommend house training a puppy indoors as this paves the way for confusion and a much harder task later on. It sounds as though your pup does not have the concept of house training yet so don' t panic...but I would highly recommend taking her outside to eliminate, rather than inside. This way she will associate grass etc with her toileting habits, rather than the kitchen floor or anywhere indoors. If you are home during the day then a crate is a wonderful way to house train, but if you are not, then best to start leaving her outside. Good luck

Settrlvr, my dog was on Advance and he suffered copraphagia, dull/flakey coat and bad breath. A reaction to the food is one thing, what the food contains and the calculation of nutrients it provides is another. Truth be known, young puppies could be best fed on pig pellets, but this would be a topic of much debate and/or argument from accross the board.

Most Petstock stores sell Eagle Pack as well as plenty of other pet supply chains. I cannot speak for Royal Canin as I am not too sure of the contents of the food. I just know that the Eagle Pack large/giant puppy formula is designed for slow growth of large breed puppies and has fixed puppies with growth malformations. Having said that however, have you confirmed that your pup DOES have a malformation?

Hi Casnpete, provided you have good fencing, plenty of shady areas and a kennel or some sort of shelter/sleeping area for the pup, then there is no reason why your pup cannot be outside right now. Recommended training age for pups is from 8 weeks of age, paying particular attention to socialiation which is extremely important during the critical period of socialisation, being the first 16 weeks of life. Have you enrolled into a puppy training program yet? Not too sure what you mean by this last question? Do you mean cleaning herself like a cat cleans itself?? Dogs will groom themselves from time to time, mainly their paws, hind legs etc but I think you will need to wait until your pup is a little older. Is this what you meant?

Agree with Nekhbet, swtich to Eagle Pack (Large/Giant Puppy formula). It is specially formulated for slow growth of large breed puppies and helps if there is any malformation occuring due to accelerated growth tissue.

I am not entirely familiar with DDB's structural formation, but our female kelpie bunny hops when she runs, has been doing it for years and there is nothing wrong with her. It's just the way she runs. What and how much are you currently feeding the pup? Having just returned from a seminar in the US with Ray Coppinger which discussed the problems associated with over-feeding and giving too much protein to a young pup. Interesting insight into how the genes are forced into accommodating the extraordinary accelerated growth of tissue, causing malformation such as knuckling over of joints and hip displaysia......yes hip displaysia! This problem is seen mainly in large breed pups because owners of these pups tend to think that a large breed pup requires a whole lot more food than it actualy does, also some commercial brand foods containing high levels of protein, too high for the growing pup. Ray believes large breed pups should be grown slowly to allow the genes to accommodate to the tissue growth at a reasonable rate.

I watched an Ian Dunbar seminar DVD ages ago and he was asked the question...(not verbatim)...If I desex my dog will it stop him from running out the door to get to the park? His answer was..."Only if he uses his ba&*s to get there". Well I found it funny!!

Hi MABlover, I'm sure you're probably exhausted by all the recommendations given to you. It's not a good idea to chop and change your dog's food continuosly, therefore if you are finding happiness with the current food then let it be, although Nekhbet's recommendation of Eagle Pack Holistic (Anchove formula) is designed for skin irritations and allergies in dogs. Regarding the Origen (sp?) brand of food, I did read about it's connection to deaths in cats recently....something about finding traces of industrial type cleaners in the ingredients. Darn, I deleted the email which pertained to this, very interesting read! Regardless of 'breed', a dog is a dog....it has four legs, a tail (or stump) and a huge heart. Any animal, whatever species is deserving of respect from us humans, the supposedly more superior species of animal!

Yeah Am, I have always enjoyed reading your posts as you always worded things so eloquently. We'll miss you on DOL, but please, as Erny says, come back every now and again to say G'day.

One of my dogs was eating his own poo when I was feeding him Advance. I switched over the Eagle Pack mixed in with some fresh meat and vegies and this stopped him. The act of eating poo actually comes from the ancestors (not the wolf) but the village dogs that evolved from the wolf thousands of years ago. The village dogs would eat from the garbage piles left or thrown out by the villagers. Along with left over food was also human excrement which the dogs would also consume. As disgusting as it sounds, exrement contains many vitamins that the body did not or could not metabolise. It is a rich source of vitamins for the dogs...(sounds like a TV commercial for vegemite doesn' it!) This behaviour, whilst ancient, is still played out by our modern day dogs when they are lacking in some sort of vitamin or mineral from their usual diet. Sometimes it can be just habit and the fact that some dogs actually enjoy eating it.

Oh Am, such sad sad news. Monster looked like a gorgeous yet mischievious soul...my heart goes out to you. Dogs teach us and give us so much, yet ask for very little in return. Comfort to him over the rainbow bridge. Sending you healing thoughts and comfort hugs through cyberspace... :cool:

Partly correct, the main aim of socialiation is to "socialise" the dog to everything, not just other dogs. This the mistake some puppy schools make in that they only expose and socialise the puppies to other puppies but fail to socialise and/or to advise the owner to socialise the pup to the world around it. As Erny pointed out, people, noises, cars, buses, skateboards, children (on skateboards and bikes).....etc etc etc. The list goes on and on.