Kelpie-i

Yay, I think I need a after all that! Yes he truly is an awesome dog, full of himself, but awesome nonetheless. He was sold to a breeder/farmer who will use him to work as well as breed from him I guess. His mother was sold to Sweden to work there, his father is still with Paul. The entire bloodline is tough and they are all "cattle" working lines. I did some initial basic obedience with him such as sit, drops, recalls etc. He was introduced to sheep as a young pup before we got him from Paul and then re-introduced him again at around 5 months of age. We did the initial balance, stop and backing work with him until he was 12 months - mainly my OH, the rest, especially the driving is Paul's own trumpet to blow! Paul is amazing with working dogs! Our bitch Tasha is Blue's half sister (same father), so she has the hardness/determination in her but is certainly a lot softer to work than Blue. I don't think she is of the right temperament to work the cattle though. There is some footage of Blue working cattle which I have seen and he is sensational. Not sure if you noticed when blue was "driving". It was when Paul was walking to the side and to the back of the sheep with Blue continuing to drive the sheep forward. This can be extremely difficult to teach b/c the dog has to learn a whole new set of rules - no balancing to the handler. This is our next thing to teach Tasha. I'll up load some footage of Tasha working...but not straight away as I need to get over this last experience first

Send Attempt!! ;) Be warned...it is a large file and may take a while to upload. I suggest you take your dogs out for a walk then make yourself a cup of java and hopefully by that time it should be ready to view. I've added some background music for your viewing pleasure If it doesn't work....I give up Blue

Okay guys please bear with me. The clip was over 100mb so Youtube was not going to take it. I am in the process of cutting it down...I initially said it was 3mins long but in actual fact its about 10! I'll get it up very soon!

Darned it didn't work....I'll try again tomorrow. Sorry guys!

Okay, Here goes..... A bit of history about this dog first. We owned Blue for the first twelve months of his life where we gave him some basid obediece training and basic sheep herding work. He was an extremely aggressive dog (by nature only) as he was fully socialised etc etc. This dog was not meant for the suburban family! He was returned to the breeder/trainer, Paul McPhail who then trained him further on sheep and introduced him to cattle which he is now best at. He now has an outlet for his extremely high drives and aggression levels and works the cattle beautifully. The footage here shows him at Casterton in June 05, during the field "show", being worked by Paul. He fetched $5000 at the auctions later that day. BTW, keep a watch for the sheep that almost gets away! Hope it works.... Blue

I'll try and get that footage up and running. I'll have to copy it from the tape onto the computer first. Then i'll see how I go

My first two dogs were mainly trained using mainly compulsion, no food rewards, just pats and praise - one by a private in-home trainer the other at a club. I knew no better other than to accepted the methods that were being taught by the instructors at that time. The results...dogs who were obedience but worked very robotically, with minimal focus and who generally looked as though they were not having a very good time. This was many years ago of course! Nowadays, it's a totally different story! The classes at our school are full of motivational fun, food rewards and even games. The instructors are having a ball as well as the dogs and owners. You can tell by the constant wagging of tails, prancing as they heel and the smiles on their faces. Of course, there are the normal "static" exercises that need to be practiced, but we quickly move onto other things and keep the classes interesting. Fortunately, more and more clubs and schools these days are adopting more motivational techniques and rightly so. I feel sorry for those who are stuck in the dark old days

Wow Vickie, you must tell us what he says, sounds fantastic! I think I worded my last post incorrectly, didn't mean that we "kill" the instinct outright, but rather induce a sort of "fatigue" in the dog. I see your point Vickie where it's constant drilling of the dog which can cause problems such as alternative behaviours and induced sheep fatigue. I think as humans we sometimes don't think about the consequences of "over training" our dogs. We don't always get to work our girl and sometimes it's weeks inbetween and she seems almost refreshed and goes in all guns blazing - this can be a good thing! I would like download some video footage of Blue working to show you guys. He actually drives the flock on his own! Pretty amazing to watch this dog. The footage was taken at Casterton Vic, just before the auctions this June. The footage runs for approx 3 mins, so was wondering if anyone here has some tips on how I can upload and compress it??

It's good to see that herding is actually a popular subject! Very interesting write-up Vickie. I tend to agree where he says about the dogs burning out if they are not allowed to use their own initiative ie, if not doing normal work. I was told the same thing by our herding trainer and it rings true. I wonder why this would be b/c you can put a dog through various obedience trials without burning them out, but herding is so very different. Perhaps it's because we continuously try to control their strong instinct and perhaps eventually kill it :rolleyes: This sort of thing is seen when some dogs are working (ie farm work) and also is a requirement in the Open trials. Our previous dog Blue, never won any trophies in trials but is worth his weight in gold on the farm with the cattle.

Hmmm, sounds like my dog! :rolleyes: Oh it feels good for her alright She looks almost like a statue!! I can't say I've heard of anything like this either, but as ML said, its probably a precaution incase the dog gets up too quickly and can startle the sheep. I think it all comes down to experience....this is why working with the birds work so well as it teaches them to be a little softer and patient. Has anybody had a go on cattle?? Our girl took off into the paddock where the cows were when she was 4 months old and thought she was doing a fantastic job rounding up the cows thank you very much, until she dropped to rest then turned around to find that 2 bulls were heading her way AND FAST! I've never seen her jump up so fast and run straight into my OH arms. That was her only encounter with cows at this stage. Perhaps one day!

Great points you make Barb! I don't know about you, but my dog makes me feel like an idiot when she reads the sheep better than I can ;) She picks the head sheep out of the flock almost instantaneously and works with it. At the beginning we (includes my OH) would get frustrated b/c we didn't know what she was doing and thought we were doing something wrong ie. she would flank too high. By the trainer said that she was keeping an eye on the head sheep and to trust her judgement. We used this method for both the stop and the recall off the sheep. Her ultimate reward was to return to the sheep.

Hi Teaching general obedience ie sit, down etc won't go astray to begin with, but you also need to practice and work with these when the dog is in with stock. But as ML stated, you start off with tame sheep, perhaps no more than 3 or 4 of them in a small pen. Working with ducks is also good as it teaches the dogs to go easy. I would not recommend "dry" training but would use things such as ducks and seagulls. I have a friend who whenever he sees a flock of seagulls, works his dog (on lead) and teaches him steady with them. It's a great concept b/c if his dog moves too fast too soon, the seaguls fly away, it also teaches a good natural stop. ;) It has worked very well for him.

I agree with your decision to encourage the dog to make some decisions. An exampble is when we come to a gate, I will stop her and she waits until all sheep are through just in case some stray, then she goes through. There are no commands given here, just purely trusting her judgement. I have seen some dogs at trials which work almost robotically, always waiting for their handlers every command. IMO, these dogs are not doing the work, their handlers are. It's almost like watching an obedience trial! Funny things is, sometimes the dog will use its own brain and will disobey the handler's direction which only makes the handler angry. I suppose I cannot comment as we have never used a lead, but I do know of some people who prefer to start with one.

Hi Vickie Love the clip of Trim. She looks as though she does well! I feel an "Encourage" ribbon coming on ;) We taught Tasha to sit instead of drop on the stop (just our preference only- even though sometimes she goes into a drop when she is eyeing strongly). We didn't teach the stop straight away, but rather when she was confident with the sheep and when she had good balance. We taught the stop whilst working some "tame" sheep as it would have been too stressful for her on some of the wild buggers. Her hand signal to stop was an outstretched arm, so it made it easier to teach the stop, using a rake as an extension of my arm when in with the sheep. The technique I was taught was that whilst you've got the dog balancing, you turn into the sheep, walk though them and give the command. You then use your body to block the dog from going anywhere else until they stop/sit. Lower your arms as you approach and praise, then let them back in again. Eventually you pair the hand signal with a whistle and slowly remove the hand signal. We found this worked well with Tasha. You're not alone with this one! I'm not too sure about working with leads whilst the dog is in with sheep because then you have to wean off the lead which is just double the work.

Hi Vickie Love the clip of Trim. She looks as though she does well! I feel an "Encourage" ribbon coming on ;) We taught Tasha to sit instead of drop on the stop (just our preference only- even though sometimes she goes into a drop when she is eyeing strongly). We didn't teach the stop straight away, but rather when she was confident with the sheep and when she had good balance. We taught the stop whilst working some "tame" sheep as it would have been too stressful for her on some of the wild buggers. Her hand signal to stop was an outstretched arm, so it made it easier to teach the stop, using a rake as an extension of my arm when in with the sheep. The technique I was taught was that whilst you've got the dog balancing, you turn into the sheep, walk though them and give the command. You then use your body to block the dog from going anywhere else until they stop/sit. Lower your arms as you approach and praise, then let them back in again. Eventually you pair the hand signal with a whistle and slowly remove the hand signal. We found this worked well with Tasha. You're not alone with this one! I'm not too sure about working with leads whilst the dog is in with sheep because then you have to wean off the lead which is just double the work.

Hi Alibear I didn't go to the seminar but am familiar with the technique. If I can suggest one other technique that has worked for some. Catching treats from mid-air is a skill, some dogs naturally get it and some dogs need to be taught. Try it with a crumbly sort of treat first. Feed him the entire treat from your fingers as per normal a few times. Then slowly lift the hand higher so that he is stretching up to reach it and give it to him Once he gets this, lift slightly higher again and slighly crumble the treat in to his mouth. Then keep going from there until he starts to "catch" the treat in his mouth. From there you can start moving the treat into your mouth. You need to take it really slowly and not allow him to take any treats from the ground should they fall. There are a set of videos by Joanne Plumb called Obedience 1 and 2 (I think). They show you some really nifty techniques on this. Good Luck :rolleyes:

No, don't know him at all, but I certainly know of him!

Phew....Ok Thanks!

Phew....Ok Thanks!

Hi, Sorry to come in so late on this thread. Ralphy's mum, was it Hans Vanhassbeen (spelling??) that took the puppy class, just out of interest?

No problem, I'll send through the info as soon as it's ready to go. We're all getting anxious about it as well.

AAhh you are familiar with the "dog whisperer" of the herding kind. :D Yes, very similar. Paul will actually be the honorary (spelling?) member of the association and will occassionally come down to do some lectures. Have you been to one of Paul's workshops??

Yes, they will certainly run herding weekends. They will be more in tuned for city slicker herding breeds ie. herding breeds that live in the city and have never seen sheep and of course for those that wish to work/practice with their already working dog. It will be in the Tullamarine area. I will provide more information as it is to hand but I can say this, it isn't too far away.

Oooh, I though Steve stated in other post that he was coming to Melbourne in November?? :D

Tess32 A friend of mine is in the process of setting up a Herding Dog Handlers Association in the heart of Melbourne. All herding breeds will be able to attend and it will include small lectures on herding and how to get started. It will be completely independent from the VHA, VCA or any other governing body, therefore will not have all the rules and regs attached. You can also prepare for trails if you wish to. If you are intersted, let me know as he is currently collecting names of interested people - I will pass on to him.