Kelpie-i

Toilet Duck, here are the drive swtiches: Looking at the ball awaiting your throw: prey (play) Chasing the other dog away: defence Coming back to you: pack Looking at the ball again: prey(play) I would say there would be a small section of intermingled drives between his initial inention on the ball and deciding to chase the barking dog away.

YOUR THOUGHTS K9... I notice that you mention the following drives in various threads: prey food play In my learnings about drives, there are only 3 drives being, pack, prey and defence. Of these 3, stem the anthropomorphistic descriptions such as "food", "play", "chase", "fight" etc. Also, my belief is that a dog cannot be in two drives at once therefore the dog is constantly switching. These switches/changes in drive can be extremely subtle and we may or may not see them occur. However, the last ever drive that the dog will switch to is pack drive, before defence and before that, prey. I'd like to hear your comments on these.

Can someone please tell me what we're up to??????????

I agree K9...the risk of creating an even more feaful dog by trying to push drive isn't worth it. It creates a great deal of angst for both dog and owner. I've found that this sort of dog is best trained (again I speak only of companion obedience) using a gentle reward system being whatever the dog sees as a reward (this also has to be worked on)...in extremely small steps with lots of slow confidence building. Most (not all) of these dogs do eventually learn to work in drive as their confidence levels build.

LL, All breeds of dogs, surprisingly enough even the little ones go hard. But we start developing their prey drive from when they are young puppies in most cases, which is the best time. When a dog commences at an older age, the drive is raw and has never had a proper outlet so we teach the dog to channel it. Those dogs with low drive and weak nerves we certainly don't push. This is where patience is the key and we eventually find what drives the dog even if it's somewhat. Edited to say: I speak of general companion obedience training only.

Definitely am....started working with drives just over 2 years ago and haven't looked back. Dog and owners love it and accelerates the training! Thanks for your answers/comments. Interesting point where the starved dog is driven by food and the affection starved dog driven by affection. I certainly see some of these but more often those that get way too much of these things LOL!

I work with drives and must admit that when I come accross a dog with low prey drive, it is a little hard for this dog to find anything exciting, let along it's own owner/handler most of the time. Most of the owners are dedicated and these dogs usually come through (once the dog's object of affection is discovered).....I would say that most of the time problems like this are due to a) some form of leadership issue b) the dog having access to its toys/treats and handler 24/7 c) low drive. Either one or a mixture of all. In the case of pound dogs, most of them (and I say this lightly) seem to be highly focussed on their new owners. Would you say this is due to them being incarcerated (sp?) for a period of time only to be entertained by their new owners. I say this as I have noticed this occur from time to time. Since we don't know what the previous owners have done with the dog prior to surrender, one can only assume that this would be a genetic trait in the dog rather than successful neutralisation. ??

Oh My, I leave for a day and already this thread is 4 pages long..... What an intersting topic and interesting to read every ones thoughts on this subject. K9 would you say that some dogs are more "doggy dogs" and others are more "human dogs" regardless of the sort of imprinting we do?? I tend to sway towards genetics somewhat in that I feel this plays some part on the sort of dog you'll end up with. Of course, the socialisation/neutralisation a handler does is very important, but I believe that some dogs, no matter how much we neutralise them may be prone to seeking others of their kind more so than humans. I'd love to know you thoughts on this. Edited coz I carnt spel

Too right!!!

Amen to that K9! I totally agree with you. The situation is that today's dog owner does not have the skills and knowledge on how to do this precisely. Therefore for the safey of others and of their own dogs, socialisation provides a safety net from possible aggression issues which would most likely be the result if they didn't socialise. To an expert trainer/handler, tolerance of all things around is what you are after from your dog, to the average layman owner, they want happy dogs that they can walk with and take to the park. Some owners take delight in their dogs frolicking in the park with others and rightly so. But I do agree with you in that this has it's risks and when you are expecting 100% compliance from your dog, you don't want him turning "ga ga" whenever it sees another dog.

In that case they are also good for tracking and flyball as well. But certainly not good to use for walking a a dog that is not trained and has a pulling habit. I refer to a normal harness not the Sporn harness.

The only thing I believe harnesses are good for are for car rides and that's about it. Harnesses are not a walking/training aids and they actually encourage the dog to pull as it centres on the dog's strongest part of his body - the chest. This is why a harness is used for sled pulling. Anyone heard of the push/pull effect?? Someone pushes you, you automatcially pull forward towards them. It's the law of physics! This is the way a harness works.

YAY, THREE CHEERS FOR VICKI AND TRIM.

Lablover, I was replying to your original question:

It may be easy to control the toys you use as rewards such as balls etc, however it won't be as easy to control those left by nature ie. sticks etc. So if your dog brings over a stick and you feel the urge to let him win, make sure you make him do something for you first before he gets the game. This would be a good time to do some boring obedience commands or perhaps a good time to teach your dog a trick. He will soon learn that each time he brings the sticks he is made to do something for it and should lessen the amount of times he nags you. If you don't feel like giving him a game, simply ignore him and walk away. Save the high "powered" toys for retrieving work.

Hi Rusky Actually I think it was Erny who originally suggesed this, I just seconded it. I too would like to concentrate on techniques used for teaching companion dogs and not trialists. I think most of the posters here do some form of companion dog training - please correct me if I am wrong here guys! I don't know how to start this, but I do notice that there is a separate "isolated" section on teaching tricks. Perhaps we could ask the Forum admnistrators for something like this specifically on techniques for obedience. It would not be a sort of "discussion" thread but mainly something where trainers/instructors could add valuable technique information and what they have found works or doesn't. What do you guys think???

Hi K9 I didn't make the statement re the "harsh correction collars". I think it may have been Wagalot. Ciara, it wasn't from a book. I saw it on Joanne Plumb's video and also saw it being used at Shutzhund training club.

Hi K9 Unfortunately prong collars are banned here in Melbourne, so these are out of the question when training companion obedience in a school. We have to make do with correction chains, margtingales etc. I would be inclined to praise after correction with both types of dogs. I have seen no harm in doing so especially with a softer dog. In my experience they recover quicker and don't end up working like robots or look as though they are trying to forever beat a correction. This I find rarely happens though when training in prey. Ours is a little different ie. drive-lure-drive. We still achieve the desired results. Again, training for companion obedience, some handlers are reluctant to use compulsion therefore we don't use it - only on rare occasions. Totally agree, these were hard Shutzhund dogs in training with experienced handlers.

Hi Wagalot This is interesting. There are some who don't advocate praising after correction. I, for one, do as I feel this teaches the dog to cope with corrections resulting in them bouncing back quicker. The level of praise used is low key and is limited to pats or verbal only- no treats or games. I've seen a technique whereby you correct (physical) and treat simultaneously which results in even quicker compliance along with eagerness. I certainly wouldn't use this on all dogs but the result was astounding. I'd been interested in learning what others think of praise immediately after correction.

Well if the forum would be easier then that would be a better option. That way we could keep track of what has been written and readers can backtrack to earlier posts if they wish. Perhaps a new thread can be started regarding this topic rather than keeping with this one since the OP's question hasn't really been answered.

I would love to discuss various training methods. This could be done as a separate thread for each topic ie. sit, drops, etc and we could all share out techniques and problems encountered etc. Being trainers/instructors, I'm sure we've all hit snags on occassion with various techniques and it would be good to learn what these were and how they were rectified.

It's all cool! NFR - no flaming required

Both are excellent training establishments and both have the same goals in sight, to train dogs and educate their owners. Credit goes to those trainers who choose to work with various different schools and clubs as they are willing to broaden their horizons and make better trainers for it.

Hey Haven, There should be pride in the club you work with , infact this is certainly beneficial for the club (otherwise you wouldnt work there) and in return 4paws have also recommended ADT on many occassions due to fact of the training course their trainers go through with NDTF, as well as experience (as a trainer) with ADT myself. In relation to HR's comment, it is more a dig at saying "borrowing" when infact the correct words should probably be "some of 4paws Trainers also work with ADT". Borrow also infers free or on contract, when in fact these trainers are paid and enjoy, like you with ADT, their time with 4paws and their clients.

HR, please reconsider your statement, 4Paws doesn't borrow" trainers from any establishment, rather their trainers choose to be there as the methods used by 4paws are different to those of ADT and this adds to their knowledge base of variant training techniques. Trainers are sourced through the NDTF not ADT unless you're suggesting they are 2 of the same! 4paws use positive, motivational play based training techniques. This technique works with the dog's prey drive and involves no element of compulsion whatsoever - hands-free! They also specialise in working dogs with high drives and problem dogs. HR, please make sure to get your facts correct first and please be very careful of what you state in forums such as this! You wouldnt want to be portrayed as having sour grapes, nor make a reflection on ADT in general that may make it look like they are threatened by any other schools/clubs which are enjoyable, educational and informative for their trainers and customers alike In the dog training world, there are many trainers that also operate at various centres, again to enhance their knowledge and experience. We wouldnt want to become stereotypical or institutionalised would we! This sort of behaviour restricts your capabilities and introduces "blinkers" to the way professional dog trainers react in varying circumstances when handling dogs. As for Vern Ryan, I agree with K9Force in that I what I have heard has also been heresay and it isn't polite to comment on information you haven't seen or experienced yourself.