Kelpie-i

I do many private consults and quite a few of them involve dogs who don't recall (come back to their owners when called). Funnily enough almost all of these dogs are allowed to romp off lead at dog parks with other dogs. Now I am not saying that all dogs that go to dog parks don't recall, but the majority of owners who allow their dogs at the parks do have the same repeated problems. The dogs place extremely high value on playing and chasing other dogs and the owners fair only 2nd or even 3rd or 4th in some cases. So what chance do these owners have of getting their dogs back when their dogs don't see them as a highlight? Even when my 2 kelpies get together with their regular group of friends, their focus is not on the other dogs but rather myself and the frisbee/toy. This is what has been conditioned into them. Are my dogs missing out? Missing out on what? Like Superminty, one of my dogs does not like other unknown dogs but seems happy and comfortable around his loose "pack" of friends but they are not his focus.

LL, he's bouncing around like a baby puppy :D ...well maybe not literally like a baby puppy but you get my drift. He's recovered from whatever it was...we think it quite possibly may have been a bad bout of gastro...thank Goodness! He's eating well and seems back to normal. The ultra sound scans came back fine, albeit they did find some small cysts on his kidneys and liver but they believe he may have had them for quite a while and don't pose any threat. Thanks heaps for your concern LL...I hope your gorgeous Cracker is going well too! Maybe they can meet one day and share their stories of "the good ole' days"

LL a little birdie told me that both the guide dogs and assistance dogs training schools are being evily infiltrated by Delta trainers, therefore trying to change the methods used.

Corvus, that would certainly be of benefit to sled dogs and one of the things they would breed for, however I believe it is also possible to teach a dog (maybe not all, but some) to pull, even if they are not sled dog breeds. Borders collies are not sled dogs and are not bred for sled pulling characteristics, yet they are still used in sled races. They would not have been purpose bred to have OR but would most likely be trained into it. This is why our domestic dogs are most certainly evolutionary wonders!

I have some friends who are in Kilmore and are on alert as we speak. My thoughts are with everyone who has been affected or may be affected. Here's praying for a decent dumping of rain!

Agree Erny, it is based on the survival of the pack since the pack migrates to where food is more plentiful. There are plenty of other animals who migrate in groups in the same manner. But to say that our modern day sled dog teams are looking at survival tactics is not correct as you already know. I believe the entire act of migrating is based on pack related behaviour and has nothing to do with predatory drive.

Tony have you actually seen a sled dog race such as the Iditarod? Have you actually watched the pace and manner in which these dogs move? Like I said, not everything a dog does centres around predatory drive and survival, especially NOT our modern day dog of today. You will have to give me a whopping explanation as to how this is prey drive...and I don't mean going into things like comparing them to bloodhounds or the fact that they are running, since they are not! Also, please provide relevant details on how predatory drive can be "switched on" without a key impulse present or a predatory drive satisfaction at the end. I'm all ears!

Based on a great telephone conversation I just had with Erny, we concluded that the instinct behind sled pulling and racing is based on the innate migratory instinct, termed the "migratory drift". It is a behaviour derived from pack drive and lends the pack to form and migrate from one point to another which is exactly what a team of sled dogs, Sibes or otherwise, do. This migrating behaviour involves either walking or trotting from point A to point B but not run as running consumes too much energy whereas walking and trotting conserves the most amount of energy. The dogs are able to cover a great distanct by maintaining a steady gait without exhausting themselves. This rings true with the "social facilitation" theory. I'm not gifted with eloquent writing so I hope this makes sense.

Scenting is most certainly an offset predatory motor pattern. It is exaggerated in the bloodhound genetics (ie what we have created and continue to breed for). We have enhanced the dog's features to ensure maximum scenting capabilities. But to say that the bloodhound is scenting today due to "predatory" drive and drive satisfaction and as a survival instinct, or whatever else people like to conjure up is not correct.

Tony it seems that you are absolutely hell bent on everything being due to Prey drive. Sorry, but everytime someone asks about dog behaviour, you insist on it being about predatory drive. Why? This is what a bloodhound is bred to do. They BREED for these traits and it has nothing to do with predatory drive. I have never heard of people saying "that bloodhound had great prey drive". Seriously, this is a very bad example! :rolleyes: Sled dogs pull because that's what is bred for, it has nothing to do with survival and nothing to do with predatory drive. Dogs have more than "one speed" and their lives do not depend entirely in being engaged in predatory activity. To think such things is simply ludicrous. Perhaps, just perhaps, the reasons for dogs doing what they enjoy might have something to do with Pack drive as opposed to prey drive for once. And perhaps, just perhaps, just because a dog runs, it is not necessarily for prey drive. Not everything a dog does is for "survival" purposes, some of it is just done because it feels good to do so and also what we breed into them. I cannot believe you think I am "stuck on the outdated belief". On the contrary Tony, I attend just about every lecture I can from "modern day" behaviourists and animal biologists and learn the new information that is studied today about animal behaviour. It is YOU who is stuck in the ancient "predatory drive" rut. C'mon Tony, look outside the Predatory drive square...

tkay, I speak of sled dogs in general, not Sibes in particular, and from what Ray states, yes they breed for specific traits such as the love of running as well as specific gaits and body structure. It takes years and years to get the "perfect" team. He stated that if a person wanted to rehome their "out of control" dog, that would be the dog they would look at recruiting. If you look at the Alaskan Huskies and other sled dogs, they are dogs with slightly elongated backs for longer strides. But it is not speed they look for, but rather the steadiness of the gait and the length of the stride. It's all in Ray Coppinger's book if you're intereted in reading it. Erny, this was not mentioned by Ray therefore I would doubt that this is the reason they (sled dogs) enjoy mushing. He did speak about the opposition reflex but how it can hinder the training of assistance dogs due to unwanted force and/or incorrect positioning of equipment. Good point SilverHaze, of course training and actually running the races can be just as gruelling as real work, but I would dare say that hundreds of years ago, the dogs were not looked after as well as they are today, therefore their fitness levels and general wellbeing would not have been as our dogs today who don't actually "work". I would expect that most of the true working dogs back then, didn't live very long lives. Today we have specific diets, booties on the dog's feet, proper ganglines and angling/positioning of such to reduce resistence and aerodynamic sleds to help slice through ice and wind. The sport is certainly designed to simulate work but I don't personally think it would have matched the true working conditions of yesteryear. :rolleyes: Pretty much the same as Phar Lap, although I think he was actually born that way...amazing is Here is a small piece from Ray's book: "Running is Social behaviour...running together as a team is a social event, a system of togetherness. The description of a social system is very different from the way dog teams are often described. The pervasive cliche is that they are like a pack of wolves, with a leader which dominates the pack. The analogy then designates the driver as the supreme pack leader, the so-called alpha dog, exercising his will over his pack and forcing them to run with threats of physical violence. Nothing could be further from the truth. Dogs are not wolves, dogs are not running as a pack. A pack is about chasing something. Sled dogs are running because other dogs are running. They are motivated by something the animal behaviourists call social facilitation. There is a rhythm to their run and they can hear that rhythm and they run to it. When you stand on the back of a sled, you can feel it. It is powerful.......The stucture and behaviour of a dog may superficially resemble that of wolves but in fact, to focus on similarities does the dog a great dis-service. Sled dogs are an evolutionary advancement over wolves. Sled dogs are as close to an evolutionary perfection as you can get...." So there you have it...apart from it being a feel good thing, the running of sled dogs is done in drive....PACK drive!

Midol you need to remember that this IS a discussion board, therefore no matter what you request, discussions will be had, even if you care for them or not. It's your tone that gets people's back up, not your point of difference. Regarding "dominance" theory, yes this was discussed at length in a previous thread. It's not so much that I don't believe in the dominance theory, it's just that I have a much better understanding about it these days than I did 10 years ago and it's not as "cut and dry" as many would like to believe it is. There are those who hold onto 19th century beliefs and those who move on from there. Each may still believe in same or similar concept but the level of understanding and the also the knowledge of variables is where the difference lies. We've come a long way from Konrad Most.

Midol, you know what happens when you ASS.U.ME! Listen...and you must just learn something. Are you not going to answer my question, regardless of what I may (or you assume) believe?? Fully agree Tony, but what an interesting debate it would make.

I will re-word my question....how do you tell the difference between the two...ie the body language, etc etc. How does a dog show "rank" aggression compared to how a dog shows fear aggression? Just interested in your interpretation that's all Sorry, didn't realise the thread was about aggressive handlers...should probably read the thread a bit better ....silly is me!

So how do you diagnose a "rank" dog and one that is fear aggressive? Aren't both emotive behaviours based on defense drive? Lord Midol, you seem to be the expert in drives...what do you think?

So I wonder what the dogs in the leading team are chasing? This is the category that the ANKC and other governing bodies around the world place them in, otherwise Sibes and unfortunately most breeds nowadays are not bred for working purposes. There are no Sibes out there actually working for a living, rather more for sporting reasons....well for those who actually partake in a sport with their dogs. Sport is not work and does not and cannot simulate a true working environment. Sport and races are controlled in length and time and have rules and regulations with weight allowances etc. Although that is not to say that they don't enjoy doing what they were, once upon a time, originally bred for and that is pull. Predatory drive requires key impulses to set it off. From what Prof Ray Coppinger states, and he is one of the most highly regarded animal biologists in the world who studes predatory motor patterns in wolves and dogs, (not verbatim) when sled dogs race the only motivation is the feel good factor. When a dog runs, their brains release chemical endorphins which emit the "feel good" feeling. This same phenomenon occurs with us when we exercise. It becomes addictive and this is exactly why sled dogs enjoy doing what they do. Also, the pace of the sled dog is not conducive with predatory drive. It is actually a trot rather than a run. The trotting is controlled and paced, again pretty much like jogging in humans. The dogs establish rhythm breathing with their heart rates so that they can intake and metabolise maximum oxygen levels. If they run too fast, they will tire, therefore the musher must ensure that he/she keeps them at a steady pace. This is most definitely not prey drive example. And lastly, when dogs are in predatory drive their pupils are fully dilated, when sled dogs are racing they are not. Did you also know that an extremely fit sled dog's blood is thick and almost "sludge" like due to the high concentration of oxygen? Interesting fact!

I am interested in your comments Silverhaze, and just for the record, I am by no means an expert in sled dogs ie sled pulling or races, just what was told to me during the seminar and am reading about at the moment, so please feel free to correct me at any time. ;) I find it really difficult to see where and how prey drive fits with sled pulling. We all assume that just because a dog runs, then it must be prey drive. This isn't always the case. Some dogs love to run, just as some people love to exercise and run. Prey drive, or the predatory motor pattern is a survival instinct and is really only relevant in the "chase" of something, usually related to movement which stimulates the drive. Sled dogs pull and run, so apart from their love of running, there is no predatory key impulse going on....ie. they are not "chasing" anything. There was also discussion about the proper "pairing" of the dogs for similar gait. Ray showed us images and footage of bady paired partners with differing gaits which looked extremely messy and slowed the team down significantly. Similarly proportioned pairs with same/similar gaits mean a smoother run and perhaps the winners cup. One image in Ray's book shows a perfectly matched pair standing side by side they looked like sihlouette of each other. They were Greyhound crosses. I am intrigued....where in the world are they working Sibes? From what was told, Sibes are not favoured for sled pulling work (real work, not sport) at all, not even Malamutes.

I think that's probably the case S&S. From the many pics of sled dogs that were shown during the seminar, it was quite obvious they are bred for performance, not looks!

Erny, who says I haven't already

Oh okay....Ray mentioned that it is very rare to see pure bred huskies at such races....but I certainly won't argue the point.

I just though I'd write a quick updated on Buddy. He had is ultra sound today and all is A.OKAY!!!!! Nothing un-toward was found and he has been given a clean bill of health. I am absolutely ecstatic about this news which means I can now breathe easy and look after him as best as possible in his golden years. So it stands that he suffered a bad bout of gastro which has now passed and after the sedation wears off (hopefully by tomorrow), he should be back to his old self again. I am not looking forward to the 43 degree day which is forecast for Saturday but I have borrowed a friend's cooler jacket so he'll be wearing that all day. I'd really like to say a huge THANK YOU to everyone who sent their well wishes and who were concerned with Bud's condition. I will now go and "Gabe Proof" my vegie garden, otherwise I may be reporting the sudden disappearance of a certain red and tan kelpie :wink: Thanks again everyone.... Trish

Having attended a seminar with Prof Ray Coppinger in November he spoken at length about sled dogs and sled races. He'd been breeding and racing sled dogs for 12 years. There is no particular drive being engaged by sled dogs to make them pull and run (in a sled pulling capacity of course). It is merely a "feel good" thing for the dogs which is why they do it. He likened it to when couples cuddle, kiss or hold hands....is merely feels good so they do it. The dogs are not actually chasing anything, but simply running to reach a destination and there is no "prey" reward at the other end. BTW, they don't actually use Siberian Husky's for sled races like the IDITAROD (sorry Husky people ). They are too clumsy and are not "built" correctly to withstand the pressure of the long hauls and steady speeds. Apparently this is mainly due to what has been done to the S/Husky conformation over the years of breeding that has seen them lose the ability to pull for long distances and maintain steady gaits and speed. They use mainly cross breed dogs and what they call "Alaskan Huskies" which, from what I remember, a mixed breed dog with some spitz breed in it somewhere. Dogs like Border Collies and even greyhound crosses are also used sometimes.

Spotted Devil, I have not given him any Tramadol since the other night. Instead, I have been giving him an asprin to help with any pain. My vet told me they were very strong, which scared me a bit so I decided against using them. Interesting that they made you feel "high"..I too wonder how they must affect the dogs. I have booked him in for an ultra sound on Thursday at 10.30am. I had him down at my own vet today as he has developed an infection in his eye (if it doesn't rain, it pours ) and she checked his abdomen to which is was still somewhat tender. Erny if that's the case, I'll take the bloody tablets myself! God only knows I need them right now. Because of all the attention Buddy is getting these days, my Kelpie, Gabe decided he would go and destroy my vegie patch today ....he was so lucky I couldn't catch him...he would have been one very sorry dog. Boy did he know I was NOT HAPPY JAN Funny thing though, all of a sudden, Gabe (who is the youngest of the all the dogs..he's nearly 3) has started licking Bud's face and dances and play bows around him like a puppy. He has never done this, well maybe when he was a wee pup, but definitely not normal behaviour for him. Interesting!!

Oh my LL, I can only imagine how horrible it must have been to find your loved pet that way. I absolutely shudder at the thought. Your Cracker sounds like a hoot....she also sounds as though she is still active and enjoying life which is fantastic. I think the more active a dog is when younger, the more graceful it ages...well that's my belief and I'm sticking to it. The only 'take home' medication were painkillers called "Tramadol". They told me only to give it to him if I felt he was in severe pain. I gave him one last night and another today but I don't think he will need to continue on with them. My regular vet said that I can safely give him an Asprin a day to help with ease the discomfort of his arthritis. The only other medication he is on are his regular (6 monthly) cartrophen (sp?) injections and that's about it. He is also given some human grade Glucosamine daily to help his joints. BTW, he ate all his dinner tonight....so I am absolutely jumping for joy. My only concern at this stage is the fact that he still looks like he's in a daze constantly. Could it be dementia setting in and/or becoming more predominant due to the bout of illness??? He just stands there and stares at the floor or whatever! Could it be pain? His teeth are fine although he doesn't chew bones with as much gusto as he used to, but otherwise the vets are happy with the state of his teeth and gums. Yes I am beginning to think that is the way to go too. Spotted Devil, the reply I got from Bud re Ziggy's request was ..."no, go away!" How rude!!

LL, yes we were extremely concerned. He wasn't well at all and especially since he's already on the thin side, I was extremely worried after all those days without any food and his lethargy, but hopefully he will keep getting better as the days go by. I am really sorry to hear about your lab who went over the rainbow bridge a couple years ago. If you don't mind me asking, what did he or she pass away from? Hmmmm, know of any good dog trainers? He hasn't barked again, just that once in the morning but it was better than nothing I suppose. He is normally at the fence a few times a day checking on what the magpies are doing and more recently, what the chickens are doing.