leopuppy04

Hehe- let me tell you our sides were splitting watxhing percy go! Not to mention he put himself in the yard with the kelpies to play sheepies!

Do share this link vs the Facebook one if you want to share- we want percy to be you tube famous for his herding instinct :)

So Didi and I are slowly clunking our way through the Rally O exercises and we have the call front - finish right down really well so I've decided to move onto the the finish left but... I don't really know how to go about it?

Does anyone know of a good video they could link me to explain it or break down the command?

When I watch videos of dogs doing it they all seem to spring back into place and face forward but Didi is big and awkward and has more of a 'slow and steady' approach to commands so I don't know if she can manage that sort of movement.

Thanks!

How have you taught heel work? My dogs are always taught heelwork via a pivot or perch work - so they swing their butt around into heel - like this:

Because they are taught to 'find' heel this way - teaching a finish left is just an extension of this. so instead of having her find heel from my side, I would ask her from sitting in front of me to find heel. I find they catch on easily. I would toss food infront of me and then they come into heel - C&T.... clear as mud??

Today would have been your 11th birthday mate. Missing you now more than ever.

It's easier now to think of you and speak of you with laughter instead of choking up. It still seems so unfair that I didn't get long enough with you, but I suppose now I will always remember you as young at heart with a spring in your step. I never had to watch you grow old or frail.

I see you in so many Aussies that are still around and kicking today. Your little brother Brock is just so like you and every time I play with him I see a little glimpse of you too. Koda is growing up to be just like his big Uncle Leo. He has taken many sleeping spots that you used to lie in and I think the two of you have secured my love of blue merle boys. I will always have to have a blue kid in my life.

I know you are not alone up there for as the months have passed, there have been some canine friends who have joined you at the bridge. I'm sure you guys are having a great party up there as you wait for us.

We talk of you often at trials - of the way you barked all the way around your agility courses focusing more on getting a good camera angle than the task ahead. We talk of your lovely heelwork, your brain farts in UD and I still remember the time you ran out of the ring to get your little cuz squeaker and presented it to me SO proudly instead of getting your seekback article. You knew how to make me laugh, you knew what buttons to push to make me so mad at you, but then you would just wriggle with glee and I couldn't help but smile!

The house is quiet still without you around. You had such a presence. I hope you are having a great party up there today - on your special day. May it be filled with the loudest, biggest cuz ball to squeak, butt scratches all day long and the best treats.

Awesome!

I can't wait to see it in person Miru - I'm so excited! Just beautiful and you captured him perfectly :)

I hope that the person who get's this picture of him will love it as much as I do - I can't wait to see their face :)

I am not an experienced collar shopper at al and my dogs do not have way too many collars....

Lupine http://www.fouryourpawsonly.com/index.html

Up Country http://www.upcountryinc.com

Artful Canine http://www.theartfulcanine.com

Saffron http://www.thehill.org.au

Cozy Critter http://www.cozycritter.com (click on the fabric options – they will show you the collar image – changes things completely! )

Hill Top Leather http://www.hilltopleather.com

Luca’s Welt http://lucaswelt.weebly.com (Custom made collars – discuss with her through FB – she’s awesome)

RC Pets http://www.rcpets.com/Default.aspx (Great Quality – order through Amazon)

My standard agreement is the person pays for the dog up front. (I don't charge more for pet/show/performance home).

If I use the dog at stud or for a litter, either way - the person gets a full refund of their purchase price OR 2nd pick of a pup.

The full costs of the litter are borne by me as it after all my litter. All proceeds from the litter come back to me with the exception of the above.

The reason I do this, is the person has looked after, trained and the dog for me. This is a saving to me by not having the dog at my place. If I had kept the animal at my place, then training, food, etc and cost of health tests would normally have been borne by me as well if the dog had stayed here.

The reason I charge up front is if the person desexed the dog before it is bred - they still have their pet at the normal rate and I have at least the puppy money from that sale so no one is out of pocket.

If the bitch/dog is in another breeder home and you both want use of the dog/bitch, then the cost of health testing is 50:50. Each litter costs are borne by the party doing the litter.

I try to be fair in this regard. The person who is looking after your dog for up to two years is doing you a favour. I offer back the choice of a pup or their full purchase price as a thank you. If the dog stayed with me, I would not have got a purchase price to begin with, so that is no loss.

As for whelping/raising the litter - I guess that comes down to trust and the person's ability to do so. If I felt the person capable of doing it, then it would be better if the bitch stayed there in her known comfortable surrounds. Otherwise I get the bitch back two weeks prior to whelping so she can settle in. Once the pups are about 4-5 weeks old or fully weaned, then I see no issue of sending the bitch back to the owners.

I have one bitch out at present on breeder terms. I will probably whelp her here as they are not experienced. After the pups are two weeks old if she is comfortable with it, send bitch and pups to her for raising with guidance. She lives only 15 minutes from me, so I am not too far away to lend assistance if needed. At worse, I will at least try to get the family of the bitch owner involved and maybe even be present at whelping and involved in their raising of the pups (I don't have kids, so the fact the family has children is good once the pups get older for child socialisation)

Some great advice here - thanks :)

TSD have you seen Susan Garrett's current litter? They all seemed to reliably use litter trays filled with paper based kitty litter by 6 weeks of age, and toilet outside when they have access. She says she never has issues transitioning.

Yes! That's what has got me thinking. It actually looks easier to deal with and that's what I've been thinking about using. I'm pretty familiar with cat litter as you can imagine!

I actually find puppies are REALLY quick at learning appropriate toileting and if you think about it - if we as breeders can even prevent 'accidents' from such a young age, they never really should get into their heads that anywhere other than 'outside' and their toilet spot is the place to go! TSD - I too have been thinking about the litter substrate too but not sure of the availability of the exact litter that SG uses. Prior to knowledge about this I have found puppy grass has worked to the same level of success :).

As for an update pet loo wise - gone back to grass mats and we are back to 100% success and no more accidents even when I'm out. I have left the pet loo out a few times and he has used this - but someone's suggestion on here about texture seems to have done the trick - cut up the pet grass mat and put on the pet loo - this seems to have worked.

We shall see!

OT but which brand of pet loo are you using for babies LP? Still not sure what I will do in that regard...

One from crazy sales.... if I was purchasing again - I would buy this one:

http://www.crazysales.com.au/online-large-indoor-pet-toilet-73921.html

The bunnings grass mats work well FYI. At about 2 weeks I turn the whelping box into 1/2 drybed and 1/2 grass mat - they all pick it up super quick. I then transition the grass mat to outside without too much problem. Most leave at 8 weeks about 80-90% toilet trained! Mind you - apparently Kinta's 2nd litter was a bit of trouble and my puppies have chosen carpet before - but I think that comes down to my house not having any! :laugh:

Thanks - I was looking at Crazy Sales just before and didn't know which one would suit. Doesn't the pee soak through the grass mat though??? I did like the mats that Pers posted though to go under a grass mat. Think we might get that for under the kitty litter tray too! You're all brilliant enablers :D

with the bunnings mats it goes through to whatever you put underneath - so yes, it soaks through - I think it drains better than the 'fake grass' on my pet loo which may also contribute to why Ari doesn't choose it..... As for the pet loo - drains through to the tray :)

OT but which brand of pet loo are you using for babies LP? Still not sure what I will do in that regard...

One from crazy sales.... if I was purchasing again - I would buy this one:

http://www.crazysales.com.au/online-large-indoor-pet-toilet-73921.html

The bunnings grass mats work well FYI. At about 2 weeks I turn the whelping box into 1/2 drybed and 1/2 grass mat - they all pick it up super quick. I then transition the grass mat to outside without too much problem. Most leave at 8 weeks about 80-90% toilet trained! Mind you - apparently Kinta's 2nd litter was a bit of trouble and my puppies have chosen carpet before - but I think that comes down to my house not having any! :laugh:

Are you using your normal piece of grass on the new loo ?.

I have just purchased one, as so many people are buying them and my future pups will be already pet loo trained.

It's the fake grass which came with the pet loo - so just a cheapy. I have however trained my puppies to use them and the breeder of Ari, my Lowchen used the same brand of pet loos and the pups were using them then too...

We used a pet loo for Jager for about 2 years. We only had a balcony so it meant that he had a "grass" area to use when we weren't home (we took him out a few times a day to toilet so this was only used when we weren't home). I found he was fine with it for #1s but didn't use it for #2s. I think cause he circles a lot more. So maybe if your pup does a lot of circling, the area might not be big enough to find a good spot to go. Also make sure that it is 100% stable and that the grass fits in the lip. If the grass slips or its not stable you will just deter them from using it.

We didn't have any issues training Jager to it but he was paper trained when we got him so we just put the paper all over it and slightly around it to encourage him to use and then slowly reduce the paper.

Also I found that the grass that comes with the loo is horrible. Jager preferred other fake grass. We just bought some from bunnings and cut them to size. They sell 1m x 1m pre cut squares for $20.

Thanks Nushie - this is helpufl :). Yes, the grass mats I am using are the 1mx1m Bunnings squares and we have good success with this. I've gone back to just using this for now until I get some consistency back - saves the cleaning up of accidents! I think I may follow your advice and cut the bunnings squares to the pet loo - you are right in that it slips and it is not a big area so this may be deterring him. He actually likes to lie in it like a bed, not a toilet! The other thing I am trying is two different locations for his bathroom to see if there is a preference :)

I haven't used a pet loo but I wonder if it is the height that is the problem? have you tried slowly building up the height of the grass matting?

Yep I have and this doesn't seem to bother him! I am wondering if because it is a cheap and nasty he just *doesn't* like it...

have no idea about pet loos .

if he is happy with fake grass - then a square placed on one of the conni pet pads may suit :) The conni pads absorb HEAPS , have waterproff backing ..and are machine washable - dry quickly

Thanks persephone. He is pretty good - and we are normally only talking about No 1's - unless I leave him for an abnormally long time then we are usually poop free which is nice :). It's just frustrating but I am coming from the angle of my Aussies are mostly toilet trained by 12wks... but this is a puppy who is outside when I'm not home and if I am going by those standards, Ari is right on track.... I definintely think the ability to toilet inside has slowed us down :)

Hi All,

A bit of a weird post for me but I'm wondering if anyone uses/ relies on a pet loo when they are away from home as a way of an emergency 'spot' for their dog?

I have a 7mth old Lowchen who is an indoor dog - confined to a section of the house when I'm not home. I don't want him wrestling and rambling with the Aussies for extended periods when I'm not there to supervise.

He has always been really good with toileting when I am home (no accidents) and he will reliably use the grass mat that I use (with training pads underneath or newspaper), however whenever I try to transition him to the pet loo (or version of) we go backwards (as in, he stops using the pet loo, will go back to 'accidents' on the floor, and not exactly in the designated 'toilet' location.

Ideally I would like to use the pet loo for ease of cleaning, but if I have to keep to the grass mats, I'd rather that than finding accidents everywhere in his little area.

Oh and before anyone asks - yes, I have a dog door, yes I plan to allow him access to this, however this too is unreliable for him to *choose* to go out using the dog door.

I would also like to reiterate that when I am home, he is very reliable and is completely fine overnight out of his crate too...

Who's Digger LP? Boy aren't you going to have fun with the new H360 verbal :laugh:

Hahaha - Digger is Meg's boy - my prized Tahli baby :) Actually the 3rd pick of the litter, but seems to have the 'wow' factor and has surpassed his sisters as the 'pick'.. LOL

Yes - I heard about the new verbal - hmmm... that could be interesting for Meg!

Oh and Silentchild - What day are you doing Dog lovers? Will I see you there? I'm doing Fri/Sat and then off to Ballarat for agility on Sunday :)...

Hopefully I will see you!! I am doing Sat arvo and maybe Sunday as I have to take Breeze to her UWT session Sat morning - probably won't bring her to Dog Lovers tho!! Bit too full-on for her. Just the human this time. ;) Who are you bringing, Kinta?

t is UWT? I'm not sure who I am bringing on what days but Ari will be supporting the Lowchens and Koda/Tahli will be sharing the Aussie role!

HI Miru - Glad to hear that today was helpful for you :). I think everyone here has posted some really well rounded views of what an Aussie is/ can be like and I really like Lisa's (?) advice of thinking about what could be the 'worst' type of Aussie and could you live / manage that - worst on the realm of 'normal' - I don't think anyone goes through expecting to get a dog with serious behaviour issues and this can happen no matter the planning.

I think from what you are wanting - a male would be best for you and also be willing to take the word of the breeder - they shouldn't be afraid to turn around and say 'this one is not for you'. This is not against you as an owner, but because that particular puppy doesn't suit what you want - like I said to you today - this is extremely important to ME as a breeder (and most of the other breeders I know!) because we want a successful match from the start!

I forgot to pull Digger out for you to meet today but if you come to another comp you will have to meet Tahlia (Digger's mum)... she's a little... ummm... different to what you experienced today! Think Zara having a silly then times it by 100! She is an absolute people tart too :p

Oh and Silentchild - What day are you doing Dog lovers? Will I see you there? I'm doing Fri/Sat and then off to Ballarat for agility on Sunday :)...

I'm starting to think more and more about the possibilities of importing to expand my lines. I don't have any money to do it in the near future, but I want/ need to know the rough estimates of costs and what you think is better - ie: do you import just the semen, import the dog or import a bitch in dam?

One of my main concerns is that our lines in Australia always seem to end up in the same spot and I think we need to start expanding. I want to go overseas to see the dogs to help me make the choices rather than just going on what breeders say / show over the internet.

For those of you that have done it before - what led you to your decision? How did you go about it and are you happy with your choices.

Most likely - importing will be occurring from the US.

I received my first GSD bitch on breeders terms in 1982... also had two litters in partnership on a co-owned bitch in the '80's... i think it was more common back then for people to put dogs and bitches out on terms and definately seemed more encouraging back then compared to some breeders terms I have heard of lately.... I use the same basic system as per what my original breeder mentor used.

Bitch goes out on terms - no charge and stays in my name with VCA but resides with them. They pay all the usual costs for keeping a pet but I pay for any fees with regard to hip/elbow, dna testing etc. Bitch is also able to stay with me when no charge when in season if this suits the family.

All the girls reside near me (within an hour drive) so this makes it easier... then depending on the family the bitch might come here to whelp or I go to them when the birth is imminent. If litter whelped at my home the plan is for the girl to be here a week before and stay till pups are 5-6 weeks old.

If at their home and all is well then the litter will stay there for the first 2 to 3 weeks. I visit regularly to check how pups are going and we weigh and record any info needed. By 3 weeks they are ready to start feeding, this could mean that the litter and bitch come home with me... this way I can start the puppy socialising program. Bitch can then go home at 6 weeks.

The litter is in my name therefore decisions on Testing, Dog, Names etc are mine - Financially I pay the costs relating to stud dog, AI, progesterone tests etc. I also buy the puppy food and any related costs to registration of pups, microchip vaccination etc. I also provide the whelping box, vet mats and playpens for the family to use.

First litter belongs to me 100%... the agreement is for 5 or more puppies (surviving 48 hours).... if the litter is smaller then a second litter is done as a 50/50 deal. If there were no surviving pups then I have the chance for a litter at her next season.

If the bitch has more than the 5 healthy pups I am then happy to sign the dog over and they could have the option of breeding their own litter... however if they want to breed with me in partnership that is fine and the bitch stays in my name and we go 50/50 on everything next time round. this litter will also be bred under my prefix under my system.

So far had no problems...

Thanks AB - this sounds very well thought out and I think it sounds like it covers all bases. My biggest thing is that i do not want the person who is 'raising' the litter for me to be out of pocket or feel backed into a corner - so I think I will stick to my original plan of lets just have an open discussion and see what is mutually agreeable for all parties. I think that breeders terms can work really well when both parties enter with a good understanding and agreement of what is to be expected.

Honestly I think this should've been sorted out before the bitches left your care....

Actually it IS written in their contract what I expect from a 'breeders terms' bitch however I think that as circumstances change and you know that they are responsible/ caring people you can move a little on this and I want to do what is right for both mum and also her owners. Both owners that I am talking about here have signed a contract to say that bitch comes back to me for a litter, however I think this is very difficult for someone to go for up to 10 weeks without their dog (sometimes their only dog!) and I want to do what is reasonable for them, not make them stick to something they no longer feel comfortable with.

I haven't done breeders terms as such but I have twice leased back a bitch I bred.

1) The owners had paid for her but not full price (she was an older re-home, long story!). She had lived with us as an adult so "sort-of" knew us.

I picked her up, took her to the dog and returned her to their place. 6 weeks later I picked her up again, as she was to whelp at our house.

She only had one pup (which we kept), the owners were happy to have a pup from a different litter so they got a pup from her aunty about 6 months later. ETA: for free

This sounds similar to what I want to do with the older bitch. Owner wants something to show and she wants to keep something from the litter. I have already told her that she can have her pick from the litter (under our guidance of course as to what we feel is best for what she wants (show and performance)). There will be no payment for this puppy.

2) The owner bought the bitch as a puppy (had waited nearly 3 years for her). We kept the sister. Sister turned out to be a horrible mother.

Owner took the bitch to the dog as it was close to her (she is an experienced breeder). I paid the stud fee direct to the stud owner.

At 6 weeks the bitch was flown to us as owner was going overseas. This was arranged right from the start, if she'd not been going overseas she would have whelped the litter herself.

We raised the litter, paid all costs involved. Kept two pups and the proceeds of the sale of the rest of the litter (ie total sales, not "profit") was given to the owner of the bitch. This was a total of the sale of 4 pups. So technically I got one pup for paying the stud fee and one pup "free" even though everyone knows raising a litter is an expensive undertaking! This was a nightmare litter actually as the bitch got black mastitis and was very very ill - while her owner was uncontactable overseas. That doG we had known each other for nearly 20 years :)

Firstly - I use the term 'profits' loosely 4 litters in and I am yet to see any "profits". Perhaps I should use the terms monies instead if people find that less offensive? Anyway - that is beside the point. My main concern is that I do not want my puppy buyers who are allowing me to continue my lines (and kennel name) through their bitch to be out of pocket. I don't care if they end up a little better off ie: from a big litter, easy whelping etc.. as that would be my 'thank you' for all the hard work of raising, but I certainly don't want them to be out of pocket, so I'm trying to work out what is fair and reasonable.

I think in a round about way - you have answered my questions as it is pretty much exactly what I envisage for both scenarios, however both owners I think would want to be heavily involved in the raising, breeding and decision making, which I would be more than happy to include them in.

I have a girl out, who we are not sure if we will breed, but we sorted terms with the new owners before they bought her.

Charged normal purchase price (in Shelties there is often no difference between pet and show price), they are raising the litter and are responsible for all costs associated (stud fee, eye testing which is mandatory in the breed, vet fees) and receive all moneys from puppies. If I want to do additional testing I will pay for that (DNA etc). i have said I will pay for registration of the pups (largely because they are being bred in my kennel name and this would simplify any paperwork etc - it is not a big part of the cost). I have the option of purchasing pick puppy for the same price as they paid for their girl - as I would be picking the stud and it would be part of my ongoing breeding plans etc (if I had arranged this with someone wanting to start up with a foundation etc then I would need to have considered whether I was taking first pick in the first litter then signing her over or ?? but this family really wanted to breed a litter with support but not much more from there so it is simple).

It was what seemed most fair and simple to me - but it is very situation specific I think…

Thanks BC. This is what I am thinking is the most fair scenario - whoever does the 'raising' is responsible for all of the associated costs - but I wanted to make sure that I wasn't doing anything untoward to the owners of the bitch. Like I said - I don't want them to be excessively out of pocket (as we sometimes can be) due to a complicated whelping and pregnancy.

Hi All,

Have a question for breeders who send their bitches out on breeders terms. I have two (technically 3) currently out on breeders terms with 2 likely to be bred late this year/ early next year. One is likely to come back to me for a litter, the other is likely to raise the litter in her own home due to the owner having sufficient experience and she has been showing her/ training her etc for the last 2 years. These two bitches are in very different homes were one is in a show/ performance home and the other in a pet home (but experienced pet home.

My question is a) what do you do with your bitches - do they come back to you or do they stay with their owners? If bitch stays with you - do you keep her till pups go or only to a certain age?

b) finances - do you pay for the litter, does the raiser pay for the cost of the litter/ do you split the costs

c) Do you offer the (pet) owner of the bitch the choice of a pup or the price of a pup for leasing their bitch back to you?

Just trying to decide what is most fair. I'm thinking I will be doing one of each given the different circumstances. The one I raise, she will get option of a pup/ purchase price of a pup as a 'thank you'. The one the owner raises then she will outlay the costs (and retain all puppy purchase fees) but if this doesn't break even then I will pay 50% of what she is out of pocket or something like that.... What do you think is fair and reasonable?

Thanks guys the kind words are really lovely, so miss him. I saw his sister yesterday and golly she looks so similar it was a bit of a jolt

leopuppy I think they're the lists I've been poring over. I haven't found any other drug (yet) that is absolutely completely definitely safe for treating mange (because that's how this all started ).

We gave him Revolution and didn't realise selamectin was the active ingredient & was on the dangerous list even moxidectin (Advocate) isn't safe & I think (off the top of my head from the limited so far research I've done) they're the main two that treat mange.

Yep you are correct - most of the medicinal treatments for mange include a 'mectin' or ivermectin based product because it treats mange so successfully. With Collie-type breeds you usually have to go for a 'natural' remedy or other treatments (hard to find!). What is so frustrating is that most of the vets I have spoken to or discussed this with are not aware or they think it is not a problem and the dogs 'should be fine' and prescribe it anyway - I have had a few vets tell me this! Luckily the word is getting out the MDR1 sensitivity is a real issue and they are becoming more aware of it now.

http://happydognaturals.com/sarcoptic-mange/

So sorry to hear Huski . Run Free Cherry

I think that's why the z/d or royal canin hypoallergenic is a little bit easier as now for me too I have offered my dog a wide variety of proteins so a novel one would be tricky...

The dermatologist did explain to me that these commercial diets aren't 100% as there is a chance they'll be allergic to some ingredient in the food (of which there are many, which is why I did a pork and potato diet initially)... the majority of allergies are proteins though. For now I'm really happy with the z/d and cost wise it's not so bad either, the pork and potato diet almost sent me broke!

Also I added probiotics to my dogs food after a tummy upset initially caused by giardia - thinking they would help the gut, that was an oops as they actually prolonged the diarrhea and again it was only when I stopped and had him JUST on z/d that he got better! So my suggestion is to be careful with any probiotics too and if you are considering adding them in do a small trial run and then stop and see what happens.

Interesting - thank you for that - I did have Koda on Probiotics (Protexin) before I started feeding him just on I/D. Good news is he has now been completely normal for the past few days (since starting this thread) and his frequency of poops on walks is now down to 1-2 which is great. Off to the vet tomorrow so I will see if they think I should change to Z/D or stick to I/D

LP, you can do an elimination diet with raw, you just need a novel protein he hasn't had before like kangaroo. Vets will advise on the details, I've used kangaroo, rice(or potato) and a human multivitamin for a long term one.

Nova has poop issues with Chicken, that would be my first thing to eliminate.

When doing an elimination diet I like to get weekly weights too, some foods may seem good poop wise, but they could drop weight on them to dramatically.

thanks LisaCC - the only issue is with my dogs being very lucky and having a 'variety' to raw - there is not a meat we can think of that is completely novel for KK and easy to source

The main ones I can think that are normally less common are venison, goat, duck, rabbit?

Any luck there? If you have any local deer farms/butchers they may be able to help with pet cuts to cut down price.

After having one dog with IBD and going through proteins, I've been careful to leave a few meats off limits for Nova "just in case".

He has not had venison, or goat but has had duck and rabbit. Sourcing goat and Venison would be tough though and on a food trial, i don't want to run out! Finding a 'filler' is also just as hard, hence why i am happy to do z/d and then switch back to a 'normal' dry once we start our trials again. Given his recent reaction to I/D though, I'm starting to feel a little more confident as I/D has both beef and chicken in it and I've noticed really good improvement with him over the last day or so (famous last words!)... time will tell...

I'm not sure if it's even available in safe for consumption meat in VIC but.. horse?

Couldn't do it!

Haha evolving - fingers crossed your girl doesn't do what Tahli did to me - Due on the 1/1/14, pretended to start ont he 31/12, heard the fireworks, shut up shop (not without making us stay up all night!), she slept all day, and properly started the 1/1 night.... I was one very tired and "broken" mum by the end of it! hahaha

LP, you can do an elimination diet with raw, you just need a novel protein he hasn't had before like kangaroo. Vets will advise on the details, I've used kangaroo, rice(or potato) and a human multivitamin for a long term one.

Nova has poop issues with Chicken, that would be my first thing to eliminate.

When doing an elimination diet I like to get weekly weights too, some foods may seem good poop wise, but they could drop weight on them to dramatically.

thanks LisaCC - the only issue is with my dogs being very lucky and having a 'variety' to raw - there is not a meat we can think of that is completely novel for KK and easy to source