Just Midol

Monelite, I meant 1-3 days as in maybe 1 day paid trainer, 2 days club or 2 days paid trainer, 1 day club :D

I've already got 2 prongs and I "own" an e-collar but I don't "have" it I'd need new prongs though (or new links) as mine will be too small for a GSD. I'd probably want to go up in thickness as well though.

I just got the e-collar as from my reading they have many uses. I don't see it as a "final step" or "last resort" so whether my trainer uses one or not it will still benefit me.

Yeah, Monelite, time will be the main factor for me. But I can organise work to give me 1-3 regular days off work a week.

I've been looking into a few clubs in the past few days and I emailed the trainer Jeff recommended me last night to find out how often he'd want to see me

Equipment is a bitch, as from what I've seen quality gear (like muzzles) is expensive. But meh, treat them well and they'll last a long time.

I'll do that then

No guesstimates? I just want a range, like, 1 trillion dollars to 30 trillion dollars (or 1 billion dollars to 3 billion dollars a week)... but a bit more realistic.

How much do people generally spend on ongoing training?

Cost doesn't faze me, I am doing it no matter the costs but it's still nice to know how much I will be forking out

(That word probably doesn't exist.)

Everyone keeps telling me about how expensive it is...

But it appears my idea of expensive isn't matching others ideas of expensive (just from browsing sites and lesson costs.)

Anyone want to tell me how much they paid a trainer when they were learning? How many lessons a week/how many hours? Half lessons and half club work?

Yeah, just go see Steve.

What were the hours like?

Just trying to work out my schedule, especially the last day.

Any ideas on cheap places to stay?

Yeah, Erny looks nothing like I imagined she would.

She said the basic tests only cost $40 so it's not a huge expense (and I don't get charged consults if its for a problem I've already discussed so that helps.)

White Vinegar.

Can you rule out a medical issue for his peeing?

Gizmo pees inside sometimes, quite often he has no idea he is doing it. The vet is going to get my to collect a sample and run some tests. For ages I thought it was a training issue but after a few suspicious urinations we've figured it's probably medical.

EFS.

Just going to answer the original question. I thought about this in relation to my dogs and how they interact with each other. The lower 2 dogs would not dream for physically moving the older girl who is the boss. They would with each other. If they do bump into her by accident they get told off.

Maybe not dominance but a lack of respect possibly. If your dog growled or something if you didn't comply then I think it would be going into dominance. Lots of lack of respect issues do then also lead to dominance issues. I've found that if you let these little things slide that you then get problems.

Thanks for your opinion I appreciate it.

The foundation work in prey is similar, but security does a lot more defence work, Schutzhund stays in prey. Most security dogs I know stick with basic commands - heel, sit, drop, recall and don't do anything fancy. The heeling tends to be more utilitarian and less showy for security.

Thanks, that is what I meant.

I can see why schuhtzhund isn't very big in Australia, anyone who as any intention of doing any protection work gets shot down. Luckily I am stubborn, and I AM going to train a dog in protection. That really isn't up for discussion, if you want to discuss methods of training or recommend reading material (or DVDs) then that would be a far better idea.

what has Sch really got to do with protection??

there is a big diff between Sch and protection work.

Sch is more like a dance routine than anything else, putting a Sch dog into a protection situation would probably not do to well.

i would love to get back into protection work, after me family has been training pp dogs for 25 years, so i know how you feel, and you have to have a lot of knowledge.

i advise you to watch as many movies, read as many books and see as many trainers working hands on as you possibly can.

good luck

oh and if "know one has given any advice worth listening" to why did you bother staring this thread, people did try to give you advice what more do you want.

Both are trained to attack. I'd say the similarities are pretty strong.

No no, I meant it isn't hard to stop him from pawing my hand I am aware that dealing with dominance isn't easy (well, I personally feel it is relatively easy once you've got a plan like I had with Axle.)

Axle was incredibly dominant, obviously not as dominant as a working line GSD would be but he was still fairly dominant. He taught me a lot.

I've got Leerburgs DVD "Dealing with Dominant and Aggressive Dogs" here, need to watch it but haven't had a chance yet.

I was an instructor at an obediecne club for couple of years before.

And I still didnt go and got myself a dog suitable for personal protection....

No one has given any advice worth listening to.

You are free to have your own opinion, I happend to ahve a different one to yours

Ill make a comment about this

wouldn't bother me if it was dominant anyway

if you are getting a dog for PP perhaps you should start practicing not allowing your dog to be dominant.....

I wouldn't care if it was a dominant behaviour because it's not exactly hard to stop?

I do not believe his behaviour was dominant, I believe he was just trying to be close.

I can see why schuhtzhund isn't very big in Australia, anyone who as any intention of doing any protection work gets shot down. Luckily I am stubborn, and I AM going to train a dog in protection. That really isn't up for discussion, if you want to discuss methods of training or recommend reading material (or DVDs) then that would be a far better idea.

I've no doubt that your dogs are very well trained.

So basically, you learnt by getting a dog and getting into it? Yet you are telling me not to do the same?

I'm confused...

What is this 'protection work'? What do you intend to do with a 'protection trained' dog?

Is it a sport like shutzhund?

Or is it a profession like being an armed security guard or a bodyguard with a dog?

Added...Or are learning to train protection dogs for one of the purposes above?

Genuinely curious about the demand for protection dogs, and protection dog trainers..

I've already stated that I do security work and once I leave the security profession I intend to compete in schutzhund. (I might not have said the second half.)

That's fine but you're really the first person (out of many whom I have spoken to) who has an issue with the way I am doing things (and by the "first person" I mean the first person who actually does some sort of protection training.)

I dont do any sort of protection training! and I dont have and ISSUE with what you do, not my dog/dogs dont know you forma bar of soap and dont really care.

I am pointing out to you that some people in this thread have a lot more knowledge than you do and you for some unknown reason dismiss that knowledge and their advice.

No one has given any advice worth listening to. PAX attacked me and offered nothing of value.

So you don't even do protection training and you are lecturing me on it?

Hmmm, I dont think its exactly the right order of things and where to start.... NDTF is great but the rest...

First learn about training, practice on some dogs than go and get a puppy. Not get a puppy and dump the responsibility on a trainer as you might just pick up the wrong puppy.

That's fine but you're really the first person (out of many whom I have spoken to) who has an issue with the way I am doing things (and by the "first person" I mean the first person who actually does some sort of protection training.)

For now I see you are having problems with your dog being crate trained

What? I don't even have a crate yet.

chasing chooks

I know how to stop it, I haven't yet. There is no real rush for me to fix this and I intend on using the e-collar to fix problem but since the chickens don't share land with him I have no desire to rush with this. When I get around to it I will.

pulling on lead

Wrong. He used to pull on the lead. I successfully fixed that problem.

and no recall

I haven't even tried to obtain a recall. I've done no recall training at all with Gizmo so this isn't a case of my training "failing".

I am seeing Steve SPECIFICALLY about recalls. I want a clean slate when I see him so I have no intention to even try and get him to recall.

etc. Not so great basis when considering you want to get yourself into personal protection training with a new dog/puppy. Why dont you try training the dog you already have to respond to some techniques you are learning with NDTF? or you havnent progressed that far as yet?

I've only received my first batch of notes as I pushed my block training back to september-oct. So far I've really only learnt about the basic things. Conditioning, reinforcements, punishments (what they are not how to use them), basic dog training rules. I put all that into practice every time I teach Gizmo something new.

I can't move to a company with dogs as we have none in the area. I COULD ask to use one of the other handlers dogs but they're all crap. One guy semi-trains his but not to a very high standard.

And if you are going to employ a trainer I hope you have a nice pile of money stashed away - personal protection is an expensive "sport"

Sure, but it's a job right now, not a sport. I also intend on joining the police force and attempting to get into K9 squad so I am not to fussed on spending money to learn about protection work.

How did YOU learn?

Why would I want to do that?

We all start somewhere, this is where I am starting.

I'm in the process of doing the NDTF course, should be finished that by the time I get a pup. I'll have a decent understanding of dog training by then. Won't know much about protection training but I don't really care. That's what a trainer is for.

ETA: Thanks Kavik, will send them an email in the next day or so.

Not sure yet. Still looking for breeders.

I was going with a GSD but I can't seem to find any working GSD breeders in QLD :S I might just be looking in the wrong places though. Did some talking with Jeff and he recommended I get a GSD as my first "protection" type dog.

I've also got to decide on who to go to for training up here.

If my dog did it to me, I would see it as dominance. But nobody knows your dog as well as you do.

I was more asking if in general, behaviour like that would be considered dominance related. BEFORE I created this thread I was 99.9% sure he just wanted to be close but I was curious as to how others would interpret similar behaviour in dogs. I am not a dog training, I do not have much experience training dogs so I wanted the opinions of more experienced trainers on how they MIGHT interpret such behaviour (so I could look at it from another perspective.)

And I'm saying that, in general, I would consider that behaviour to be dominance related.

I won't let my dog on any of the household furniture. He goes into and out of doors when invited. He eats after me, and only once released. He sits for any form of attention.

But I have only trained my dog. I am therefore not the experienced trainer from whom you sought opinions, so I'll butt out

Good luck with Gizmo.

Lmao, sorry, I was just venting and you were the unlucky person. I appreciate all input (okay, I might not appreciate it all but at least it all makes me think.)

One dog is enough

If my dog did it to me, I would see it as dominance. But nobody knows your dog as well as you do.

I was more asking if in general, behaviour like that would be considered dominance related. BEFORE I created this thread I was 99.9% sure he just wanted to be close but I was curious as to how others would interpret similar behaviour in dogs. I am not a dog training, I do not have much experience training dogs so I wanted the opinions of more experienced trainers on how they MIGHT interpret such behaviour (so I could look at it from another perspective.)

Midol OT question re this

when I start protection work

what do are you going to do this with? Do you know whats involved? Do you have a trainer you will be doing this with? and lastly do you have the knowledge to engage in this type of training?

Security, yes, no, no.

I've stated numerous times that Gizmo IS below me in pack structure.

How do KNOW this? Surely if you were comfortable that you are 100% Alpha you would not concern yourself with a behaviour like the one you are describing as it seems to me that you don't dislike it so why worry about it if you and he can enjoy that act without any concerns to your pack status as you are 100% that he is below you?

I am confortable. You are assuming that I created this thread because I was worried. It was more of a general question...

I know it alright, so like I said to pax, bugger off if you are going to keep questioning this ONE thing.

Geez, do I really need to write a bloody essay explaining why I ask something every time I do?

I've stated numerous times that Gizmo IS below me in pack structure.

ETA:I am not going to discuss the e-collar in this thread or my training methods. I asked a simple question, that's all I wanted answered. If you feel like attacking me for letting him on the bed then go ahead but I'm not going to give those comments a response any longer.

Midol,

I don't know why I am wasting my time replying to you but I quess it's your age that I cut you some slack.

I actually don't give a toss how you train your dog or what you do with it. I know how well my dogs are trained and I know I haven't used harsh methods to acheive it (I am only saying this as I know your favour for E-collars and prongs which I don't have a problem with if you have done your research).

I just hope you explore all methods of training before you totally close your little tiny mind for your dogs and future dogs sake. God help the dogs.

If you have anything else to say may I add that you might not like my reply.

I don't favor any training method. I look at my dog without bias and decide which method will obtain the best results with the least amount of stress. If it is +ve, then fine. If I need to use my prong collar, great. If after I've been trained in the correct use of an e-collar I decide that an e-collar is the best tool for the job then I will use the e-collar. If a problem can not be fixed without resorting to corrections then I will use them.

My primary reason for seeing Steve (yes, I am getting a training session with him at the same time that I get my e-collar) is because I need an e-collar for when I start protection work (unless you are the first person I've come across to use only +ve methods to protection train a dog) and I figured since I am in Sydney it is a perfect time to obtain one.

I also believe the only way to get a reliable off leash long distance recall is with an e-collar. A view many of the top trainers share, but that's a discussion for another day. So getting the e-collar now works out for everyone.

If you chose to believe I am narrow minded (or I have a little tiny mind) then that is your right, but I don't really care. I am happy with my training methods.

Can I ask what qualifications you have in dog training (no real reason, plenty of people have no formal qualifications and are fantastic trainers)?

ETA: I am heading to bed now - so if you reply I won't see it till tomorrow.

Dear Midol,

I am a +R trainer but I am not permissive, my dogs do not get to choose where they sleep or how they behave. I will also admit that I have all or most of my dogs since puppys so they don't get to form bad habits.

My dogs know the difference between if I invite them to sleep on my bed or if I don't, they don't need to be injured or have a car trip or accident, it is the same every day, where I say is where they sleep, they don't make the choice, I do.

I really hope (seeing you are so vocal about it) that you go to some of the top +R trainers as well as the others before you continue to sprout your training knowledge. There are plent of +R seminars in QLD that you could attend to truely have have a broad knowledge of most training types.

That's great, my dog does chose where to sleep. It's my choice, makes no difference to him.

I have no issue with any style of dog training. I do have an issue with people like you telling me how I should train my dogs. My dog WILL be trained to go into the crate. He WILL be trained that if he is told to go into the crate he shuts up and goes in it.

I WILL NOT force him to sleep in it unless there is a good reason. If he was getting dominant, or it was causing problems in other areas of his training then he would be off the bed. He is trained that he can get on my bed when he wants but if I ask him to get off, then he gets off and will stay off till I invite him back up. This is how I wanted to train him, I am happy with him being trained like this. You clearly were not content with answering the question, if it happens again then don't bother replying. You answered the initial question (and thank you for doing so) but why did you then feel the need to start telling me I am training Gizmo incorrectly?

Difference between what?

If I tell him to go in the crate he will go in. But if it's quite obvious that he prefers sleeping on my bed then why would I force him to sleep in the crate?

I'm not on some power trip...

My dogs prefer to pull on the lead, should I let them after all I am not on some power trip????

Midol, get real.

Pulling on a lead has negative consequences. Gizmo sleeping on my bed has NO negative consequences so if he prefers to sleep on my bed there is no logical reason to restrict him from doing so.

If it was causing problems then I would stop it.

Not all of us chose to treat our dogs like you. That doesn't make me wrong, and it doesn't make you right. I do what works for MY dog. If you can't respect that then I have no time for you at all. I know what works for my dogs, you don't. If he prefers sleeping on my bed and it causes no complications then he can damn well sleep on my bed. Like I said, power trip.