Steve K9Pro Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 K9: careful how that effects your pack position... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 Not a problem with these two K9. Most submissive sooks ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Does anyone here who trains their dog think it cruel to keep your dogs separated (even if you don't do it yourself)???? Seems that the general dog community seems to think so, and I'm stumped as to why???? Wouldn't you think it more cruel to keep the dogs together all the time and have them fret if emergency calls them to be separated? Well..... back to being the 'cruel' dog owner that I am Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 leo- the argument is that dogs are pack animals and they need to be in the pack not isolated. Pack can be dog or human of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 leo- the argument is that dogs are pack animals and they need to be in the pack not isolated.Pack can be dog or human of course. But do you not agree that in the general 'domesticated' lifestyle that we live in, a dog should be able to cope with being separated from the pack? Human or otherwise? I'm not talking about being excluded obviously, but able to survive periods away from the pack? To me - it is an important part of 'modern lifestyle'..... I mean 'single dogs' have to deal with it on a day to day basis when their owners are at work..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 I agree with you and both of my dogs are able to cope with being alone. However in some of the neutralisation programs the young dog is separated from the pack (other dogs) but able to see the rest of the pack, this is no viewed upon favourably by those against the program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Well obviously I train my dogs and I have said that I wouldn't keep them seperated. They don't carry on if I take one off without the other. But the cats are part of the pack and usually hang around with the dogs too. I would never have a single dog either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Well obviously I train my dogs and I have said that I wouldn't keep them seperated. They don't carry on if I take one off without the other. But the cats are part of the pack and usually hang around with the dogs too. I would never have a single dog either. But IMO - training also helps the dog 'deal' with being separated from the other as you will take Brock out to training and not your other (sorry I don't know her name!). Likewise, when you do training at home they realise that there will be times when neither their mate or you will give them attention . Just like having one inside and the other out for a 1/2 hour - it all adds up and helps them in the end ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 I could be wrong and stand corrected but the from what I understand some people have a dog in a pen all the time and it only comes out for training, socialisation/neutralisation excercises and some bonding with the owner. So it learns that all satisfaction comes from the owner. This is the bit that the other side is against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 You were talking about keeping them seperated during the day/night though. Not about when training. I wouldn't have one in the house and one outside. Think that is a bit mean on the dog left outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 K9: I dont claim to have invented the idea of keeping dogs separate, but I have never heard anyone other than me calling this neutralisation... So I wonder when people talk of "other" neutralisation programs, whom they are talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 You were talking about keeping them seperated during the day/night though. Not about when training. I wouldn't have one in the house and one outside. Think that is a bit mean on the dog left outside. Do you mind if I ask why? Is it your own personal feelings on the matter or is there a specific reason as to why you wouldn't do it??? Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Mainly because they are pack animals. I don't think feelings come into it. Dogs are not supposed to be solitary animals. Look at all the behavioural problems that are caused by dogs being left alone. As for being left outside and the rest of your pack being inside that must be rather painful for a dog. They don't know why you are doing it, they would just see it as being turned out from the pack. Which in the wild could mean death. Sounds dramatic I know, but you asked! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 (edited) K9: I dont claim to have invented the idea of keeping dogs separate, but I have never heard anyone other than me calling this neutralisation...So I wonder when people talk of "other" neutralisation programs, whom they are talking about? I have adopted the word nautralisation from this site and your programs K9 and it seems to be understood by others on this forum. I dont think Im the only one tho, if your post was aimed at me. tonymc In my case I want my Dogs to see a Neutral value in other People. Tony Lablover Isn't this what I call poor manners, possibly created by nerves and improper neutralisation? Erny What I will do (ie socialise or neutralise) when I get my next pup will depend completely upon its temperament and also what I want to use the dog for. Either way, I will be aiming closer to neutralisation. Whether that be the "zero" factor or not, I will determine at the appropriate time. As to answering who are the other people - Id say Jeff Jones is another person that uses the separation of dogs as part of his programs. I guess Jeff calls it something else (what do you call it Jeff?) Im happy to adapt a differnet name if you clinging to yours K9. Edited May 18, 2007 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 (edited) J: Mainly because they are pack animals. I don't think feelings come into it. Dogs are not supposed to be solitary animals. Look at all the behavioural problems that are caused by dogs being left alone. K9: neutralisation isnt leaving our dog alone, its having your dog mainly interact with you. J: As for being left outside and the rest of your pack being inside that must be rather painful for a dog. They don't know why you are doing it, they would just see it as being turned out from the pack. Which in the wild could mean death. Sounds dramatic I know, but you asked! K9: this isnt actually true in our case. If a dog is raised with the pack 24/7 for a number of years & then it is pushed out of the pack for a reason, this is considered punishment, but if the pup was not raised in that circumstance then it isnt. Its the change of pack presence that is punishment not the absense of it. If a pup is raised with an older dog & then the older dog dies, that is hard on the dog that was raised with it, & may force you to get another dog, whether you want one or not... So to apply that train of thought all facets of it must be considered. Edited May 18, 2007 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 M: Im happy to adapt a differnet name if you clinging to yours K9. K9: do whatever you like, as long as is clear where the names & the programs come from I am not fussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 K9 none of my comments have been about your neutralisation training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 K9 none of my comments have been about your neutralisation training. K9: yep I know that JulesP, just clearing up the section about dogs being separate from the pack part for all the readers.. No probs there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 K9: do whatever you like, as long as is clear where the names & the programs come from I am not fussed. you obviously are fussed.... otherwise you wouldnt point this out...... I hope this is for all the posters not only me I wouldnt want to feel extra special Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Mainly because they are pack animals. I don't think feelings come into it. Dogs are not supposed to be solitary animals. Look at all the behavioural problems that are caused by dogs being left alone. As for being left outside and the rest of your pack being inside that must be rather painful for a dog. They don't know why you are doing it, they would just see it as being turned out from the pack. Which in the wild could mean death. Sounds dramatic I know, but you asked! LOL - ask I did . hmm.... yes - I agree they are pack animals. I know you have already stated that you would never have one dog alone..... so what of those that only do have one dog? Are they not doing the right thing by the dog in your mind? Hmm... the behavioural problems caused by dogs being left alone are only by those that don't know how to manage dogs properly. Leo was alone for 2yrs, my previous dog before that for 13 years. I never had a *separation* related behavioural issue with them. My old girl - yes, we had issues - she was a shelter dog and ended up in her 'twilight years' being a little aggressive..... Also IMO - relations that we like to draw to wolves cannot always be true. Separation related issues have not crept up to my knowledge until the past 20 years. Dogs are now a huge part of our lifestyle.... sometimes a baby replacement - it is not 'pack related' such as the size of the pack but rather how we treat them in their environment. In the lifestyle we lead today a dog needs to know how to live on it's own - whether in a pack or not. If they are 'only dogs' they must survive while the owner is at work, if in a dog-pack - need to survive when the other dog is not there - whether it be ill, in season, at the vet, dead or whatever. For thousands of years dogs have been domesticated, so in my mind, they need to be able to deal with being separated from pack...... remember - if we were talking wolves, dingos or other species of wild canids - my approach would be different. As to everything else..... I agree with K9 If a dog is raised with the pack 24/7 for a number of years & then it is pushed out of the pack for a reason, this is considered punishment, but if the pup was not raised in that circumstance then it isnt.Its the change of pack presence that is punishment not the absense of it. If a pup is raised with an older dog & then the older dog dies, that is hard on the dog that was raised with it, & may force you to get another dog, whether you want one or not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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