Curious

[MrsD]

Really poor analogy but take your example above about the child doing the maths question. Imagine the child does the maths question wrong & the parents say "No! Do it again". The child goes "Ooops " then does it again & does it right & the parent says "That's fantastic!!! Lets go out for a milkshake & I'll take you to the movies!". Do you think that the child would try hard to do the maths right the next time or not?

Because i'm not talking about the child being told 'no, do it again' - in which case I completely agree with. I'm talking about a child getting smacked for getting a question wrong.....

But that's where your arguement is flawed - who said a correction is smacking your dog?

You need to use a correction that is appropriate for the dog & what you are trying to teach.

If my dog ran away & wouldnt respond to my recall command (when it *knows* what "come" means), then hell yes, my dog is in biiiig trouble, because to me that may save the dogs life in the future. If the dog did something minor, I would probably use a verbal correction - just like if my child got a maths problem wrong (one which he should know how to do). But afterwards, my dogs think they are the best dogs in the world! - cos they get lots of positives for doing the right thing, just so happens that they get corrected for the wrong thing as well .

ETA - I think I'll just let Myszka answer from now on, she says what I am trying to say & does it in about a quarter of the time - she obviously types alot faster than me .

Edited June 12, 2007 by MrsD

[MonElite]

ETA - I think I'll just let Myszka answer from now on, she says what I am trying to say & does it in about a quarter of the time - she obviously types alot faster than me .

I just have a simplistic view to life and therefore to dog training. And I dont type fast either.

[leopuppy04]

Mrs D - in no relation to the thread - how would you correct a dog for not coming when called? I am genuinely interested as I find this hard to follow through as you can't obviously correct the dog once it has come back to you . Would you verbally correct it or what?

In all honesty - my training is not much different to what you all are saying - except for the absence of a check chain - but even that I will use if the dog needed it. Perhaps we are all achieving the same thing, but having different ways of saying it.

As for what myszka said:

If my kid made the same mistake 3 times - I would say that they wouldn't understand it. The only reason I use this concept is because it is from personal experience. My maths is rather poor. I always used to get 'corrected' for mistakes (no, i'm not talking about getting smacks), but it wouldn't help me - i'd still get the same mistakes. I wouldn't in class, just in homework. But then, if I got it right - I certainly wouldn't get any praise..... I completely understand what you are saying about balancing the two.

In the case of kids - I wouldn't pack up and go home... if they got it wrong - i'd say - nope wrong, do it again.... if they still get it wrong - i'll explain.... if I know that they know it - they can't leave the table until their work is complete (ie: fun stuff taken away)....

Mrs D - sorry - it was the best analogy I could come up with.... something that doesn't hurt the dog/child, but has a -ve effect to a certain degree?

Anyway - back to what I really wanted to discuss....

How come it is that we can correct a dog 'physical corrections' yet it fails on all other animals.... why does pack structure allow us to do this.... Dolphins have (I know i'm talking wild here) strong pack instincts yet it doesn't work on them - or is that simply because we don't understand the species enough??

[JulesP]

Leo, most horse trainers do use physical corrections. Even the natural horsemanship people do (they might not agree that they do).

[leopuppy04]

Leo, most horse trainers do use physical corrections. Even the natural horsemanship people do (they might not agree that they do).

Oh - I thought they only did things such as exclude from pack etc, nowadays? - I'll stick to my knowledge of dog training then shall I?!

[MonElite]

Mrs D - in no relation to the thread - how would you correct a dog for not coming when called? I am genuinely interested as I find this hard to follow through as you can't obviously correct the dog once it has come back to you . Would you verbally correct it or what?

What I would do - and assumptions are that the dog knows what come means.

Dog runs towards the target, I give a comand, it gets ignored, the dog gets to the end of the long line and gets a correction on the collar, of if I was using the ecollar it would get the correction on the ecollar.

Dog returns - heaps of rewards.

How come it is that we can correct a dog 'physical corrections' yet it fails on all other animals.... why does pack structure allow us to do this.... Dolphins have (I know i'm talking wild here) strong pack instincts yet it doesn't work on them - or is that simply because we don't understand the species enough??

Is say dogs have a extra strong understanding and bond with human packs, I dont think dolphins come anywhere near as close to humans as dogs.

Edited June 12, 2007 by myszka

[JulesP]

Also do dolphins use physical corrections with each other??

Horses certainly do, which is why I believe that they understand it. Same with dogs. Horses and dogs also can cope without the pack, I think dolphins are much more effected by being isolated.

[MonElite]

Mrs D - in no relation to the thread - how would you correct a dog for not coming when called? I am genuinely interested as I find this hard to follow through as you can't obviously correct the dog once it has come back to you . Would you verbally correct it or what?

Out of interest what do you do?

BTW - I dont use a check chain.

[leopuppy04]

Mrs D - in no relation to the thread - how would you correct a dog for not coming when called? I am genuinely interested as I find this hard to follow through as you can't obviously correct the dog once it has come back to you . Would you verbally correct it or what?

What I would do - and assumptions are that the dog knows what come means.

Dog runs towards the target, I give a comand, it gets ignored, the dog gets to the end of the long line and gets a correction on the collar, of if I was using the ecollar it would get the correction on the ecollar.

Dog returns - heaps of rewards.

Would you still reward after giving the correction or not reward that one? What if the dog was off lead completely and no e-collar???

Would you use one of those sound things that emits a sound aversive to the dog?

I'm just thinking that with an e-collar, you have more to wean off- ie: the weight of the collar also...

How come it is that we can correct a dog 'physical corrections' yet it fails on all other animals.... why does pack structure allow us to do this.... Dolphins have (I know i'm talking wild here) strong pack instincts yet it doesn't work on them - or is that simply because we don't understand the species enough??

Is say dogs have a extra strong understanding and bond with human packs, I dont think dolphins come anywhere near as close to humans as dogs.

But would this also mean that they are more 'accepting' of what we dish out for them?

JulesP - good point - I don't know if dolphins do correct each other.... perhaps that is the definitive reason as to why it can work on dogs/horses....

[leopuppy04]

Mrs D - in no relation to the thread - how would you correct a dog for not coming when called? I am genuinely interested as I find this hard to follow through as you can't obviously correct the dog once it has come back to you . Would you verbally correct it or what?

Out of interest what do you do?

It varies - hence the question .

If they were on a lead - i'd do exactly as you said.

If they were completely off lead - I'd do a variety of things....

*If I knew they were completely safe - i'd call them - no response - i'd go and hide... praise them when they find me but not make a huge fuss.

*If they were going to chase something they shouldn't - i'd call them back and put them on lead before them charging off.. perhaps even a verbal correction if they were seriously thinking about it...

*If they were running off somewhere and I could catch them without them coming back to me (or engaging with me) I would correct them, then put them back on lead..

If they *did* run off - i'd then practice lots of short recalls for the rest of the walk - praising heavily for coming back ALL the time. The next few walks they will be back on a long line for ah... about 2-4wks.

I don't know if what I am doing is right or wrong, but I can say that my dogs have very reliable recalls.... there are huge rewards in it for them. I usually also don't say the word 'come' until they have engaged with me. We also do heaps of recalls during a walk also.

[MrsD]

Mrs D - in no relation to the thread - how would you correct a dog for not coming when called? I am genuinely interested as I find this hard to follow through as you can't obviously correct the dog once it has come back to you . Would you verbally correct it or what?

Firstly I have to say I am a big one in believing that, in general, you shouldnt give a dog a command unless you are in the position to enforce it .

I used an e-collar (I can hear some people's gasps from here ), the dog was setup to make the choice between doing what I asked or ignoring me - the dog didnt come, so it got a correction & then when it did come, lots of praise & a great game, so I became more fun than whatever it was doing out there when it didnt come. Only took a couple of goes & I got a reliable recall.

Jonty I have never had to really do anything with his recall , 99 times out of a hundred he will come immediately, in fact he is a fairly good case of why the correction has to suit the dog, I very rarely have to correct him at all & if I do it's almost always simply a verbal correction.

I also tend to think that the more you are the "leader of the pack" the more the dog respects you & is less likely to disobey. This was most definitey the case with my old dog & bitch as well, I simply used a long line on them & tHey never got a chance to get away with it & were very reliable. But I did find the e-collar to be quicker & easier .

Pack structure means that dogs constantly "correct" each other - funny, I just had a thought! I was thinking about how alpha dog very rarely corrects dogs way down the pecking order, his biggest threat is from dogs up close to him on the pecking order. So dogs that are the more submissive type (in general) are more likely to be adversly affected by a correction from their alpha ie the owner, whilst a stronger willed dog is much more likely to take notice of an owner who can give alot of guidance & enforces much stricter rules. (Does that make any sense? )

You keep mentioning other animals, as I said before horses are trained using heaps of adversives & physical handling to make them do what you want ie leading by a head collar, picking up feet, horses move away when you use your leg (or hand if on the ground) on their sides, they "give" to the bit & bridle, all dressage manouvres are trained using adversives ie leg or spurs, no positive training there, yet most people dont consider that to be cruel or nasty, do they?

eta - I give up you all type too fast for me

Edited June 12, 2007 by MrsD

[MonElite]

Would you still reward after giving the correction or not reward that one?

Dog runs towards the target ignores the comand gets a correction, dog turns to run back to me, gets to me gets rewarded.

What if the dog was off lead completely and no e-collar???

Dog wouldnt be if it wasnt proofed, weaned off the collar. Or more dog - untrained/unproofed dog off lead runs off _ I wont waste a come comand on a dog that I know wont come. I than would whistle and hide.

Different excercise to the come in the dogs mind. Reward when it gets to me.

Would you use one of those sound things that emits a sound aversive to the dog?

an ecollar has a sound button, its not unpleasant to the dog. YOu have an option of using it as a clicker type sound or warning of a correction or a blind comand.

I'm just thinking that with an e-collar, you have more to wean off- ie: the weight of the collar also...

What do you mean by more? more tahn a long line? - My Rex is 100% line smart and somewhat collar smart.

I have tried weaning him off the line with no sucess, somewhat tried weaning off the ecollar but in reality I have no need to wean him off so he can wear it for the rest of his life.

Its often not even charged when he has it on... but as I said - I have not tried to wean him off the collar as I have no need to do so, and it gives me a mental assurance (for me not for him)

Edited June 12, 2007 by myszka

[MrsD]

Would you still reward after giving the correction or not reward that one?

For me, when the dog does the right thing it always gets the reward, if it didnt, what would be the point of it doing what I ask?

What if the dog was off lead completely and no e-collar???

I'd smack myself over the head with a heavy object for allowing my dog to be in a position where he can choose to disobey me .

[leopuppy04]

What do you mean by more? more tahn a long line? - My Rex is 100% line smart and somewhat collar smart.

I have tried weaning him off the line with no sucess, somewhat tried weaning off the ecollar but in reality I have no need to wean him off so he can wear it for the rest of his life.

Its often not even charged when he has it on... but as I said - I have not tried to wean him off the collar as I have no need to do so, and it gives me a mental assurance (for me not for him)

Just in the instance of getting the dog completely onto a normal collar - you have to wean them off the weight of the collar so that they will be just as reliable with a normal collar. But like you said - if the owner is happy for it to be permanently on - there wouldn't be an issue

[leopuppy04]

Would you still reward after giving the correction or not reward that one?

For me, when the dog does the right thing it always gets the reward, if it didnt, what would be the point of it doing what I ask?

What if the dog was off lead completely and no e-collar???

I'd smack myself over the head with a heavy object for allowing my dog to be in a position where he can choose to disobey me .

You sound like me!! What is your favourite object to hit yourself over the head with though??

[MrsD]

What do you mean by more? more tahn a long line? - My Rex is 100% line smart and somewhat collar smart.

I have tried weaning him off the line with no sucess, somewhat tried weaning off the ecollar but in reality I have no need to wean him off so he can wear it for the rest of his life.

Its often not even charged when he has it on... but as I said - I have not tried to wean him off the collar as I have no need to do so, and it gives me a mental assurance (for me not for him)

Just in the instance of getting the dog completely onto a normal collar - you have to wean them off the weight of the collar so that they will be just as reliable with a normal collar. But like you said - if the owner is happy for it to be permanently on - there wouldn't be an issue

I found that if you get the dog used to wearing the collar first for 3 or 4 days they very rarely realise when it's not on or twig that that's where the correction is coming from, well mine didn't anyway, it's not that heavy really & they usually don't even realise it's there.

[MrsD]

Would you still reward after giving the correction or not reward that one?

For me, when the dog does the right thing it always gets the reward, if it didnt, what would be the point of it doing what I ask?

What if the dog was off lead completely and no e-collar???

I'd smack myself over the head with a heavy object for allowing my dog to be in a position where he can choose to disobey me ;) .

You sound like me!! What is your favourite object to hit yourself over the head with though?? ;)

Something like this .

[leopuppy04]

I'd smack myself over the head with a heavy object for allowing my dog to be in a position where he can choose to disobey me .

You sound like me!! What is your favourite object to hit yourself over the head with though?? ;)

Something like this .

LOL - personally I prefer the brick walls - means I have to carry around less....

[Cosmolo]

Another one of these threads.. But if i didn't like them i would stay out of them so here goes !

To try to answer your questions Leo, in a succinct way-

Firstly, i have extensive experience with horses, although they have been put on the back burner for dog exploits for now. Natural horsemanship works on the principal of negative reinforcment and levels/ phases- ie, i tap lightly, no response, increase to phase two (more pressure) etc etc till the response is gained. Horses, while some may be 'pack driven' as you put it are often kept away from a pack situation (not as punishment, just as way of keeping) and are trained to respond to their owner as a leader (thats the only similarity i see with dogs) Positive reinforcement for the horse is the removal of pressure and/ or a stroke/ pat/ verbal reward. But i never stopped mid show jumping round to give a carrot.

As for the child/ maths example- if the child knew the maths well and wouldn't do it because they were running around the classroom, not giving a sticker (removal of positive reward) would probably not be effective. Not giving the sticker and a time out (because rulers are no longer used to correct children) is likely to be more effective. There is a big difference between this and a child who is trying to do the maths but doesn't understand it and gets it wrong because they're confused. I can't say i like the analogy much though..

I used to train in Perth using positive techniques- no physical or verbal corrections. I saw many dogs with serious issues that could not be practically trained using these techniques and as a result were either very difficult to manage, medicated or euthanased. So i am in fact, a convert TO using a combination of aversives and positive reward. For a few reasons-

- i worked with a number of dogs who were difficult/ impossible to motivate using a treat or toy or praise- even if they would work for it before a meal, they would not do so afterwards.

- There are many adult dogs with exisiting behaviour problems that, while they could have been trained positively if we were with them as puppies, cannot do so now. For example, the dog who has learnt that chasing stock is more rewarding than anything i can provide- the option to use a positive reward only is taken away- i have to devalue the other rewarding prospect too.

- I believe that clear, well timed and appropriate level corrections can make things clear for both dogs and owners. There are many owners who will use a 'correction' regardless of being instructed not to- isn't it better that they know how to do it properly? For the dogs sake?

- I also believe that corrections can build a dogs attitude and confidence. 6 months ago i had a dog join our family with serious fear based psychological issues- others had tried and failed and we were unsure as to what we would achieve. After much work- some corrections and plenty of positive reward- georgie, is a happy dog with mild- moderate issues that no longer impact her daily life.

- Reliability in either older dogs with pre exisiting habits OR in dogs that are difficult to motivate through purely positive means

- LP- the reason why corrections are not used generally in agility/ tricks etc, is because the dog you are working with is considered to be high drive so the removal of the reward is enough. When you are utilising drive, speed etc and doing exercises that are rewarding within themselves- positive training works very well. I use corrections because not every dog is like this AND many owners want to reduce drive, not increase it. (and yes of course i tell them the dog has to have an outlet etc etc)

I wish very much that all of you had been able to attend a recent e collar seminar i went to with Bart Bellon on the Gold coast. Put a whole new spin on using an e collar and every dog that he demonstrated with improved their attitude/ confidence with the e collar- some had been positively trained, some had not. Some of the things he said were like revelations- and this is to someone who had been 'taught' how to use an e collar correctly- i was wrong and happy to admit it. And it is not that hard to wean off an e collar.

[jesomil]

I completely agree with everything Cosmolo said in her post.