Australian Dog Training

[deltron]

Thought i'd start a new topic on ADT, as the other ones are from a few years ago.

I'm going to an intro session this Sunday arvo and i'm wondering what i'm going to be in for, the person on the phone wasn't very forthcoming with the info ;) .

My Tenterfield Terrier pup is 13 weeks and we initially wanted to just take him to puppy school but it seems you have to take a package, so we thought we might go for Gold level obedience.

We are very interested in the socialisation aspect. He loves dogs his own size and friendly adult humans. We've not tested him around bigger dogs (we don't know anyone with a big dog who is calm enough), and he is a bit unsure about kids (don't know anyone with suitable young kids).

I read that ADT sometimes include different sorts of animals and situations into the training for socialisation purposes. Is socialisation with children also included? I'd really like my dog to have the opportunity to be able to socialise with some kids in a safe environment, as he is very tiny and hence is a kid magnet when we go on walks.

[Guest rhapsodical78]

Thought i'd start a new topic on ADT, as the other ones are from a few years ago.

I'm going to an intro session this Sunday arvo and i'm wondering what i'm going to be in for, the person on the phone wasn't very forthcoming with the info .

My Tenterfield Terrier pup is 13 weeks and we initially wanted to just take him to puppy school but it seems you have to take a package, so we thought we might go for Gold level obedience.

We are very interested in the socialisation aspect. He loves dogs his own size and friendly adult humans. We've not tested him around bigger dogs (we don't know anyone with a big dog who is calm enough), and he is a bit unsure about kids (don't know anyone with suitable young kids).

I read that ADT sometimes include different sorts of animals and situations into the training for socialisation purposes. Is socialisation with children also included? I'd really like my dog to have the opportunity to be able to socialise with some kids in a safe environment, as he is very tiny and hence is a kid magnet when we go on walks.

Which ADT will you be going to?

Perhaps you could suggest that to the instructors and they may be willing to incorporate kiddie socialisation in.

[deltron]

Which ADT will you be going to?

Perhaps you could suggest that to the instructors and they may be willing to incorporate kiddie socialisation in.

Oakleigh South.

It's been suggested to me to check out some local community obedience clubs so I think I might check out 'Moorabbin & District obedience dog training club' and perhaps 'Eastern Suburbs Obedience Dog Club' too (as they are in the vague vicinity of where I live) before I commit to anything.

[Ms James]

Thought i'd start a new topic on ADT, as the other ones are from a few years ago.

I'm going to an intro session this Sunday arvo and i'm wondering what i'm going to be in for, the person on the phone wasn't very forthcoming with the info :D .

My Tenterfield Terrier pup is 13 weeks and we initially wanted to just take him to puppy school but it seems you have to take a package, so we thought we might go for Gold level obedience.

We are very interested in the socialisation aspect. He loves dogs his own size and friendly adult humans. We've not tested him around bigger dogs (we don't know anyone with a big dog who is calm enough), and he is a bit unsure about kids (don't know anyone with suitable young kids).

I read that ADT sometimes include different sorts of animals and situations into the training for socialisation purposes. Is socialisation with children also included? I'd really like my dog to have the opportunity to be able to socialise with some kids in a safe environment, as he is very tiny and hence is a kid magnet when we go on walks.

Hi Deltron!

We're seasoned ADT attendees (usually Hawthorne, but have been known to float to Okleigh when we're too lazy to get out of bed early on Sundays!). Your first introduction session will include a talk by one of the instructors as to what you can expect from training with ADT, they go indepth about the socialisation aspect of the course, and what outcomes you can expect from all the different levels. Towards the end of the session, several different trainers come & take dogs & owners for little one-on-one session so that they can assess the dog & you can talk about what you want to achieve with your doggy. It's all very much no-pressure, & you get given an info pack so that you can take it home & think about it further.

So far, we haven't had socialisation with children - and I guess this is probably due to indemnity insurance more than anything. I know as a parent I'd be pretty reticent in allowing my kid to be guinea pig to a bunch of doggies! What you'll see is a bunch of people dressed up in weird outfits, jumping & screaming etc etc, rattling noises & you're given the tools to learn how to keep your dog under control & non reactive in these situations. It'll be one step further for you to use those tools in your own home & outdoors setting once you've learnt them & then you can take it on to socialising with children.

Oh, & I know what you mean about the receptionist chick! I think she must be new there, or in training, because I recently called there & didn't get much help either! The lady I had when we first signed up earlier this year was waaaaaay more knowledgeable!

Good luck

[Arya]

Hi Deltron, I'd STRONGLY STRONGLY suggest you check out your local not for profit obedience clubs first, or at least as well as ADT. Moorabbin and Districts is a long established club with a good rep, though I don't train there and am not a member so even if I was looking for a club and thinking about joining I'd look hard first. My advice would be to visit a good half dozen different clubs in your general area. Even travel as far as Croydon and District DOC if you can. Or Frankston. I don't mean just different ADT centres. Every club trains differently. The ADT group of centres train one way, other clubs train other ways. Don't just listen to the people who work there at any of these clubs who advise you. Get out into the clubs and WATCH carefully how the dogs are trained. Then go on the Internet and decide how you want to train your dog and do some research into different training methods. Do you want to use a more compulsive method with correction chains or are you into more of the 'purely positive' and luring type of training? Look at your dog's temperament and then look also at what will suit the dog best because if its temperament. Every dog is different. Don't go to a club where the training method is all the same for every dog if you can avoid it. Ask lots of questions at each club but use your eyes to work out what is best. If trainers/instructors have their own dogs at the club hang about and watch how they interact and work their own dogs. Do they just 'talk the talk' or can they really 'walk the walk' too? You'd be surprised at what you will see. Finally, I must say here that some places will tell you that not for profit VCA affiliated obedience clubs are geared more towards competition. This is totally untrue. You can gain a really good level of happy family/domestic obedience with your dog at these places and have real fun with you and your kids OR you can go on and take up options for competition obedience, flyball, agility, whatever you choose to investigate. One thing I have learned... never be swayed by purely recommendations of others about clubs. Check out everything for yourself.

[PossumCorner]

... It's been suggested to me to check out some local community obedience clubs ...

Good suggestion, good advice (Arya's reply is spot on also). My own experience with ADT was not good. Signed up before I watched a class which was totally unattractive, feet on leads to force-drop a dog wasn't a good look to me. Had to pay my hundreds up because I had signed for a set of courses: but never went back. Others find them great I know, but to me it was too commercial aside from the method. (This was about four years ago).

At VCA affiliated clubs there are generally other member's children around who would be happy to spend time helping your dog to be kid-friendly with parent's and instructors' co-operation.

[KittyCat]

I was quite impressed with ADT too after reading a bit about them on their website. Jorja has her name down for puppy pre-school at a local vet but I thought this would be good for ongoing obedience traning. I am still to ring them and enquire so we shall see what eventuates. Hopefully it isn't too expensive :rolleyes:

[Guest rhapsodical78]

Which ADT will you be going to?

Perhaps you could suggest that to the instructors and they may be willing to incorporate kiddie socialisation in.

Oakleigh South.

It's been suggested to me to check out some local community obedience clubs so I think I might check out 'Moorabbin & District obedience dog training club' and perhaps 'Eastern Suburbs Obedience Dog Club' too (as they are in the vague vicinity of where I live) before I commit to anything.

They might be reluctant about introducing kids to older dogs but puppies shouldn't be too much of a risk. Talk to them and see what they say!

I second the recommendation to look around. There are so many different methods and techniques out there you might want to find something that you're comfortable with. Remember that whichever club you choose you will be attending once a week for at least a year, and they're all so different, so choose very carefully.

What are you hoping to achieve with your dog? If you want to trial, ADT is not the best option as they tend to be very socialisation based and they don't focus on trialing at all. If that doesn't interest you then it doesn't matter so much.

[Paganman]

I once went to an introductory session and the guy running it did the hard sell, youd think he was selling Gold Coast apartments or something. We were all recomended to take up the top plans, I think theyre gold and platinum something like that and they were both quite expensive. This guy implied that the lower plans really werent having and that if we joined on a lower plan and then wanted to upgrade it would cost us a lot more than joining a top plan first up. Theyve also got a sort of installment system where you pay it off but this costs a lot more in the end. The instructor I talked to after was quite nice but I decided not to go ahead with it because I probably wouldnt use it all the time and youd really need to to justify the cost.

It was alright but I really didnt like the hard sell from the guy running it, made it seem that all they were after was the money. Im not saying theyre not good trainers, but I didnt like the way they tried to make people join up to the more expensive plans and the guy running it was pretty awful, he was the one who made me decide not to do it.

[deltron]

Thanks to everyone who has replied to my post and has PMed me privately, it's much appreciated.

At this stage i'll still be going for the free ADT introductory session and i'll see how that goes. I hope they don't give me the hard sell, because that is the perfect way to turn me off!

I've found who I think will be a good puppy school in Ormond which we will be probably attending, which will buy me some time before I have to decide on an obedience school.

I've been looking at Southern Obedience Dog Club and Knox Obedience Dog Club and they both look good.

However, I wish there was some closer to where I live!! (Oakleigh/Carnegie/Malvern/Caulfield area)

Have been turned off Moorabbin a bit as I was told they don't use food based training. My dog is only interested in performing for his food!

We have done positive training with him (food and clicker) and it works very well for him, so that is what we want to continue doing. I wouldn't want to use a correction chain as his breed tend to cringe and I don't want to encourage that.

At this stage we are wanting to achieve a well behaved dog, and will be happy with that. A win for us would be a dog that doesn't bolt once off the lead, and that does what he's told, rather than what he decides he feels like doing! He also needs to learn focus, and i'd like him to understand what it means when I point at something.

I don't think he's got the temperament for showing, but who knows - he might settle down.

I definitely want to do lure coursing with him (I think he'd love it), and will consider agility he is becoming a very fast and muscly little guy, and he enjoys lots of activity.

[Cosmolo]

Southern also frown upon food use once the dogs get out of puppy classes. I do agility there only (not obedience) and use lots of food and toys- you just need to be prepared to say what you want to do and how you want to train. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have an open mind though- look at the other dogs that are training where you attend- are they generally happy to be there? All training involves a degree of stress, but it is how that stress and confusion is worked through that is important. The dogs should finish happy

[Arya]

Thanks to everyone who has replied to my post and has PMed me privately, it's much appreciated.

At this stage i'll still be going for the free ADT introductory session and i'll see how that goes. I hope they don't give me the hard sell, because that is the perfect way to turn me off!

I've found who I think will be a good puppy school in Ormond which we will be probably attending, which will buy me some time before I have to decide on an obedience school.

I've been looking at Southern Obedience Dog Club and Knox Obedience Dog Club and they both look good.

However, I wish there was some closer to where I live!! (Oakleigh/Carnegie/Malvern/Caulfield area)

Have been turned off Moorabbin a bit as I was told they don't use food based training. My dog is only interested in performing for his food!

We have done positive training with him (food and clicker) and it works very well for him, so that is what we want to continue doing. I wouldn't want to use a correction chain as his breed tend to cringe and I don't want to encourage that.

At this stage we are wanting to achieve a well behaved dog, and will be happy with that. A win for us would be a dog that doesn't bolt once off the lead, and that does what he's told, rather than what he decides he feels like doing! He also needs to learn focus, and i'd like him to understand what it means when I point at something.

I don't think he's got the temperament for showing, but who knows - he might settle down.

I definitely want to do lure coursing with him (I think he'd love it), and will consider agility he is becoming a very fast and muscly little guy, and he enjoys lots of activity.

Okay, if you are looking at somewhere to do positive training without use of correction chains it's a shame you aren't a bit further north, towards the airport. There is a good one I've had some experience of at Diggers Rest. I think it's called Four Paws. They do luring, postive stuff. Way over the other side of the city from me unfortunately. You really will have to look around closely as if you want to train in this manner there are several that frown on the use of food, though they are still good clubs! I personally prefer food, toys, any motivator. NEVER let anyone talk you out of this imho. It's not just for use with beginner dogs. Take a look at some of the best trainers in this country and they still use their motivators like this with their top dogs! If you have a dog that loves performing for food or a toy, build this up as it is a real bonus Others may have suggestions for clubs who will encourage you to train this way in your area. I must say that unfortunately, my experience of ADT is that they are big on correction chains and using the person as a motivator (which isn't enough for many/most dogs) and not so keen on using food and toys as motivators CORRECTLY, as a reward after an action once you get into the higher classes. That is only my personal experience though and I know others have found huge success and very high praise for ADT. Once again, make up your own mind and stick to your guns which sounds like you are going to do, so good on you

[jaybeece]

I've been looking at Southern Obedience Dog Club and Knox Obedience Dog Club and they both look good.

Knox is probably a bit of a hike for you, but I really enjoyed going there. The instructors vary quite a lot in their methods and are very approachable if you have any questions. They're well worth the tiny subscription fee.

They also score bonus points for having a bar- it's great to sit down and have a beer after a long training session

[deltron]

The dogs should finish happy

This is my goal. ;)

Okay, if you are looking at somewhere to do positive training without use of correction chains it's a shame you aren't a bit further north, towards the airport. There is a good one I've had some experience of at Diggers Rest. I think it's called Four Paws. They do luring, postive stuff. Way over the other side of the city from me unfortunately. You really will have to look around closely as if you want to train in this manner there are several that frown on the use of food, though they are still good clubs! I personally prefer food, toys, any motivator. NEVER let anyone talk you out of this imho. It's not just for use with beginner dogs. Take a look at some of the best trainers in this country and they still use their motivators like this with their top dogs! If you have a dog that loves performing for food or a toy, build this up as it is a real bonus Others may have suggestions for clubs who will encourage you to train this way in your area. I must say that unfortunately, my experience of ADT is that they are big on correction chains and using the person as a motivator (which isn't enough for many/most dogs) and not so keen on using food and toys as motivators CORRECTLY, as a reward after an action once you get into the higher classes. That is only my personal experience though and I know others have found huge success and very high praise for ADT. Once again, make up your own mind and stick to your guns which sounds like you are going to do, so good on you

I think the most I'll do is martingale collar, we use that on his walks.

I WISH I could use just myself as as a motivator but food works so much better. I wonder why using food is frowned upon in some circles?

And to use yourself as a motivator, doesn that mean you'd have to withdraw affection from your dog and only give affection when the dog is doing what you want it to? I can't see my dog working for praise alone. Food holds his focus for longer.

Knox is probably a bit of a hike for you, but I really enjoyed going there. The instructors vary quite a lot in their methods and are very approachable if you have any questions. They're well worth the tiny subscription fee.

They also score bonus points for having a bar- it's great to sit down and have a beer after a long training session

OOOH now you're talking my language... I can train my OH to go to obedience with me and his reward will be beer! Beer is a much better motivator for him than praise from me

[ravensmyst00]

I must say that unfortunately, my experience of ADT is that they are big on correction chains and using the person as a motivator (which isn't enough for many/most dogs) and not so keen on using food and toys as motivators CORRECTLY, as a reward after an action once you get into the higher classes. That is only my personal experience though and I know others have found huge success and very high praise for ADT. Once again, make up your own mind and stick to your guns which sounds like you are going to do, so good on you

Arya, Not sure which ADT centre you would be referring to as they prefer to use flat leather collars for training over any other type of collar. It took me ages to get a few of the trainers to understand that my bullmastiff would only be trained on a correction collar as there was no control with a flat leather collar (not to mention they didnt have any that would fit his neck).

Possumcorner, the "forced drop" is only used when all other methods of training have been tried and have failed - it does not cause any harm to the dog.

All up the best people to ask about ADT are Haven and HeirRottweiler. Haven was one of the trainers that helped me train my bullmastiff. HeirRottweiler has been fantastic help on a few issues I had in the past - he's with ADT as well.

I didnt totally agree with some of the training methods used but I found that they were the best for the purpose I needed. They trained me and I trained them in the ways of the confirmation ring. When I get my next dog I will most likely be going back to them again.

[Arya]

Ravensmyst00, firstly let me say I have nothing against cxn chains/slip chains at all and use one myself. But I must own up and say I have spent some time at several ADT centres and the only time that flat collars were used was on agility or in puppy classes. That was my experience and it is all I can go by, but I have spent years in dogs and have seen lots at other clubs too, so am not coming to this from a beginners angle. I didn't like the way cxn chains were used there. As far as the forced drop goes, compulsion is preferred at some centres rather than luring. This was my experience at more than one ADT centre. I am NOT criticising ADT here as I know many people, as stated before, have great success at their centres and love them. I am simply stating my personal experience. I do believe that you must fit the training method to the dog and did find that it is a 'one size fits all' at ADT with regard to use of food and motivators, or lack of appropriate use. I queried this extensively in my time there. I was not happy there. BUT, I will state again that this is only MY opinion and others think very differently and are very happy there. This is one of the reasons I think it's so important for new handlers to visit lots of different clubs/centres and see lots of different training methods in action and see trainers training their own dogs. Then they can make judgements about what is best for them. :D For some ADT will be the best way to go. For others, it may be a more 'purely positive' as it is called, approach to training. For others it may be something else that suits them. For me, I like a highly motivated dog, working in drive for me. But I competition train as well as tricks train.

Cheers

[Tapferhund]

"Not sure which ADT centre you would be referring to as they prefer to use flat leather collars for training over any other type of collar. It took me ages to get a few of the trainers to understand that my bullmastiff would only be trained on a correction collar as there was no control with a flat leather collar (not to mention they didnt have any that would fit his neck)."

Ravensmyst00,

Are you sure it was an ADT center you went to(?) because the ones I have attended ALWAYS recommend Sprenger brand(the best brand) slip chains over anything else and for those owners who want to use nothing but flat collars on their dogs ,the trainers recommend the buckle type flat collar.

On reading some of the other posts I have to agree with a few of the comments such as in the over use of one method , ie compulsion , for all dogs regardless of the dogs temp and char.........and the lack of use of other more positive methods at these centers.

Don't get me wrong......I am not against compulsion....it is a valid method and has it's place in training but IMO it should be in conjunction with other more positive methods. My problem with seeing compulsion being the only method taught to the clients or members is that this is what they (the clients) think training a dog is all about and many , IMO, become bullies towards their dogs..........and this in turn is reflected in seeing very unhappy dogs who comply because they have to and not because they want to........IMO.

[Cosmolo]

As with any large training group, what is taught will vary depending on who is taking the class and where. As for compulsion as a preferred technique, this needs to be explained to people as to why is can be adantageous to do things a certain way with their particular dog. I do both luring, drive training and guide show and place (compulsion) depending on the exercise and puppy/ dog in question. I always teach G/S/P in puppy classes as part of manual handling and getting the dog used to being manipulated into different positions. Its not rough or horrible, its a gentle guide.

I disagree with something like foot on lead being a 'last resort' after all other methods have failed because i believe a trainer should be able to assess what method would best suit the dog from the beginning, not just try random exercises until one works.

What others need to understand as well is that within a large class, its difficult to tailor techniques to puppies/ dogs and people. Try taking a class with 5 dogs on correction chains, 3 on headcollars, 4 on flat collars- 2 with clickers etc etc. This is why i like clients to do private training or a puppy school before they do one of my group classes so that we have already gone through what works best for their dog and i don't have to cover that with 10 different dogs in 50 minutes!!

[Miranda]

I once went to an introductory session and the guy running it did the hard sell, youd think he was selling Gold Coast apartments or something. We were all recomended to take up the top plans, I think theyre gold and platinum something like that and they were both quite expensive. This guy implied that the lower plans really werent having and that if we joined on a lower plan and then wanted to upgrade it would cost us a lot more than joining a top plan first up. Theyve also got a sort of installment system where you pay it off but this costs a lot more in the end.

Was this at Boronia Paganman because I went there earlier this year and had exactly the same experience, I found the 'hard sell' pretty hard to take and it did put me off joining. However I've never been to any of their other locations where quite possibly these sessions may be handled completely differently.

[jesomil]

On reading some of the other posts I have to agree with a few of the comments such as in the over use of one method , ie compulsion , for all dogs regardless of the dogs temp and char.........and the lack of use of other more positive methods at these centers.

Don't get me wrong......I am not against compulsion....it is a valid method and has it's place in training but IMO it should be in conjunction with other more positive methods. My problem with seeing compulsion being the only method taught to the clients or members is that this is what they (the clients) think training a dog is all about and many , IMO, become bullies towards their dogs..........and this in turn is reflected in seeing very unhappy dogs who comply because they have to and not because they want to........IMO.

This has been my exact experience. Well said.