Snoozie Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Hi everyone, Well Zed and I are onto week 7 of our basic obedience training. Everything is going really well except in one major area...Heeling! I have been doing everything they tell me to do, and in the backyard it works perfectly (treat luring), stopping when he pulls and asking him to come back to me, rewarding when he does. The only problem is, this is the only place where this method works! As soon as I move outside the backyard, he starts pulling like a steam train and is not interested in the treats at all...Strange for a Lab, I know :rolleyes: When he pulls I am stopping and asking him to come back to me, rewarding when he does, but at soon as we start walking again, he starts pulling again. Is there a way that I can get through to him quicker about what we are trying to achieve or is it just a case of because he is older (18mths) he needs longer to absorb and get used to the idea and I should just persevere? If not, is there a better method to be used? Any hints, tips, suggestions would be helpful! Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Are you after a competition style heel or loose leash walking? You may use a different method depending on what your goal is. Have you tried changing direction when he starts to forge ahead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tahini Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Hi Snoozie, I took me a long time to teach Nemo to heel... The only way I could get Nemo to get the idea was every time he pulled I would stop, I would pull him back to me on the lead (not yank), and say uh uh. Then I would start walking again but when he pulled again, I stoped, pull him back to me (not yank), and say uh uh. When he didn't pull I gave him a treat, he soon got the picture... I don't know the difference between competition style heel or loose leash walking, but I am guessing that Nemo does loose lead walking... Nemo, too, didn't work for treats out of the garden :rolleyes: I don't know if this helps -Nemo :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 What type of collar are you using? What collar "won't " you use? How many lessons during the 7 weeks? What duration (for heeling) Heeling properly is actually the hardest thing that you will ever teach your dog. I am an experienced handler and I have been teaching my dog heeling for 12 months, and only now is he ready at competition level. An experienced handler should be able to get a dog to loose lead walk in a handfull of lessons, but that is not "heeling". There is alot to learn about the exercise for a newby, but I take it that you just want a loose lead walk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rhapsodical78 Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 One word: "correction". Buy yourself a check chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 If you are after competition heeling, you will want focus first, there are several exercises which teach attention and eye contact which helps a lot for building a good foundation for heeling. Clickers can be helpful for this, or you can be crazy like me and spit food :rolleyes: I also think heeling is one of the more difficult exercises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Zed and I are onto week 7 of our basic obedience training. Everything is going really well except in one major area...Heeling! I have been doing everything they tell me to do, and in the backyard it works perfectly (treat luring), stopping when he pulls and asking him to come back to me, rewarding when he does. The only problem is, this is the only place where this method works! As soon as I move outside the backyard, he starts pulling like a steam train and is not interested in the treats at all... Bearing in mind that I am not your instructor but just some random stranger on the internet... There is a difference between loose lead walking, and the formal heeling exercise. Loose lead walking is the dog walking at any position, providing the lead is loose, and the dog is responsive to your directions. It's your basic good doggie manners training. Heeling is a formal obedience exercise with the dog right by your side, paying attention only to you and your next command. For loose lead walking what you are doing is good but I would try and lose the treats. If he's ignoring treats in class, it's because his immediate environment is more rewarding than the treats. I think the better method is to make sure he understands that a loose lead is a condition of moving forward and that you control his access to the environmental rewards. So what does that mean? There are plenty of rewards on a walk that you can use instead of treats. Does he want to sniff the light pole? He has to have a loose lead and he isn't allowed to pull towards the light pole. If he does, you stop until he looks at you with a loose lead and don't let him sniff that light pole until he does! If you have to wait 5 minutes, wait. If you only get 20 metres in your first walk, fine. The object is not to cover a lot of distance but to teach the dog the rules of walking. Your dog only gets to sniff/play with other dogs/run when he does as you ask. Be clear about what your rules are, and be consistent (if you give in sometimes, he will push for those sometimes all the time) If he's just forging ahead try the "be a tree" method. If he pulls, stop. Don't yank the leash back, just stop. Don't move until the leash slackens and he looks at you. As soon as you get a loose lead and a "c'mon mum!!!" look from him, praise him for looking at you and move. If he pulls again, stop. If he pulls again, turn around and walk 50 metres in the opposite direction. The key message for your dog to get is that you decide where you go and how fast, not him. If you haven't got the stubborn streak to train this way, consider a prong collar until he's a bit older and a bit more settled down. If it's the formal heel exercise, that will take longer than a post here to explain. I had to reteach heel to my bitch because I had poisoned the "heel" cue by waving treats in front of her nose and giving her a mixture of confusing sit and walk signals. Essentially heel is a position right next to your leg. Teach the position first, and the rest follows. As for classes vs the backyard, you are the most interesting thing in the backyard, you are not the most interesting thing in class. If he's good in the backyard, try the exercise on the footpath outside your house next. When he gets that right, then try in a local park. Slowly increase the levels of distraction so you're not asking him to go from performing in the boring backyard to performing in a super exciting dog class full of dogs and lots of interesting smells. By the way, dog classes are for learning techniques that you then practice at home. They are not for trying to impress the instructor and other students with your l33t doggie skillz! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Essentially heel is a position right next to your leg. Teach the position first, and the rest follows. This is what I teach. It is posn not walking beside you so no matter what you left leg does, the dog has to follow it to remain in the heel posn. I teach the it in the halt to start off with by luring the dog up to the heel posn, then reward. Once the dog has learnt the posn I then move forward a few steps at a time and gradually build up duration. I also do a lot of 1/4 and half turns on the spot. Heeling can take 12 months to teach for competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangerineDream Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 I've found the easiest and quickest way of teaching heel to be this (have tried it on forging Dobes, GSP's that work 5' off the ground with enthusiasn, and it takes almost no time at all). 1. Take end of lead in both hands and clasp hands against your chest - this is where your hands both stay at all times. 2. Without a word, start walking....and dog shoots past, without a word, turn and walk in the other direction, as dog shoots past you, without a word, turn and walk in the other direction. Remember that you are silent, and both hands remain clasped against your chest. repeat steps 1 and 2 until you get the response you want. You are letting the dog correct himself, you aren't correcting him. Any dog who has gone to obedience will get the idea pretty quickly and it won't take too long before you find that he's not quite getting to the end of the lead like he was......and then you can use the same silent 'turn and walk in the other direction' to teach him the distance you are happy for him to be away from you - in fact you can teach him the heel position by continuing this method for longer. As soon as he's in the position you want, a quiet stroke and soft 'good boy' will tell him that he's where you want him. Tango ('Mr Overenthusiastic' who would heel 5' off the ground if you let him and pull you to China) learnt really quickly what this was all about, so effectively so, that at his first week at obedience ever, I put him straight into class 3 and the instructor wanted to know why I wasn't in the Novice class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Are we talking loose lead walking or heeling? In terms of LLW (coz I think this is what is meant).... try penalty yards. Start in the house: Have the dogs dinner set up and walk say - to the other end of the kitchen..... if your dog pulls, go RIGHT BACK TO THE START! No matter where he pulls from. Yes, even if he pulls say 3cm away from the bowl - go back to the starting point. Keep repeating until your dog can LLW up to their dinner - you get what you want by doing what I want :D Once you have mastered this inside - then practice out in the yard, fron yard, down the street etc. But above all - the main thing is to be CONSISTENT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoozie Posted July 26, 2007 Author Share Posted July 26, 2007 Hi Everyone, Thank you for taking the time to help me. At this stage we have been teaching heel (stay by left leg, dog's shoulder level with leg) only when using treat lure. When not using treat lure at training we are aiming that dog should be loose leash walking, preferably not too far away (as in not pulling out too much in front of handler)...I hope this makes sense? I am not expecting him to be at competition level for some time, just to be able to walk comfortably on a loose leash would be nice I've tried check chains and the gentle leader on him, I really hate the check chain and because he pulls soooo much, I can't use the gentle leader as it cuts into his nose and chops it to bits. Silly doggy doesn't even stop pulling when it hurts him.. When out walking with him I have used the stop dead when he pulls, and wait until he turns in and lets lead go loose before starting again. I guess all I can do is try a few different methods, such as you've all suggested and see which works the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoozie Posted July 26, 2007 Author Share Posted July 26, 2007 (edited) sorry...double posted Edited July 26, 2007 by Snoozie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 (edited) I also think heeling is one of the more difficult exercises. I do too. It's pretty easy to get a reasonable heel with the basic turns, but start throwing in complicated turns, changes of pace, pivots, jumps, etc or even just demanding a more precise position, and it gets way harder. We go to obedience each week, and my nice instructor is always able to point out at least one problem with our heel work. Teaching loose lead walking isn't as time consuming, though. And it sounds like LLW might be more like what Snoozy is after at the moment? Edited July 26, 2007 by Amhailte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoozie Posted July 26, 2007 Author Share Posted July 26, 2007 I also think heeling is one of the more difficult exercises. I do too. It's pretty easy to get a reasonable heel with the basic turns, but start throwing in complicated turns, changes of pace, pivots, jumps, etc or even just demanding a more precise position, and it gets way harder. We go to obedience each week, and my nice instructor is always able to point out at least one problem with our heel work. Teaching loose lead walking isn't as time consuming, though. And it sounds like LLW might be more like what Snoozy is after at the moment? Hi Amhailte, I think right now I need to have the LLW in check and going nicely before I even think about heeling properly. He will heel with a treat lure at home, and sometimes at class, providing there aren't too many distractions. My main objective at this point in time is to be able to comfortably walk my dog without him tearing my arm out of it's socket, giving me blisters and causing himself pain and minor injuries. Naturally once this is down pat, I'd want to move onto heeling but not until I have solved the LLW problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poodle wrangler Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 I'm no expert here and was at wits end a few weeks ago when it was pull, pull, pull. Time makes a difference! Keep it up. It's great when your dog starts to know what you mean and do what you say. Much more fun . I also find burning a bit of energy before class helps calm my dog- we do a bit of a jog around the oval, not worrying about heeling and have a bit of a play. I also make sure he's not had food for about 4 hours before training, so the treats are more exciting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mutchumbo Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Check out this video... It's SPOT ON! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 (edited) That clip is great but I think what the OP wants is loose lead walking not comp heeling. I believe it is very unreasonable to expect that level of heeling in general walking. Check out these clips. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ8pEsEae4Y...ated&search= Not bad for reward based training. Edited July 27, 2007 by PAX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 (edited) I would suggest you teach heel as a static position first. The dog can understand 'heel' as sit in position by your left hand side before it learns it on the move. You can lure the exact position (sitting close and straight) and use barriers like walls or a piece of rope to assist. If you have already added the cue then I suggest you use another as "heel" has been tainted. Teach the dog that 'heel' means come from what ever position you are to sit in the correct position. Once you have that you use the cue and move forward.. one step or do static turns and reward the correct position. The dog will move and look to sit. After that, all you are doing is increasing the duration of your movement, the speed of your movement and adding turns or giving an alternate position when you stop. In my experience while ever you need to use the lead to gain the heel position, the dog doesn't understand what you want and certainly won't understand when the lead comes off. Personally, I'd be teaching it with the lead OFF first.. start in your back yard. If you cannot get a static heel, movement will be even more difficult. Edited July 27, 2007 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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