I Need Advice On Diagnosed Torn Cruciate Ligaments In Both Legs Please

[nellbell]

My dog has been diagnosed with 2 torn cruciate ligaments in his back legs by the vet, which was quite disturbing.

It started last week when I was looking after another dog, and I saw my dog holding his back leg up one time. Then he did it once again, so I took him to the vet. He was x-rayed on both hind legs, and the x-rays were normal, but the vet did the manipulation drawer test and said both legs have torn ligaments.

I find this hard to believe as my dog is quite happy running around and doesn't favour either leg. he stands on his hind legs and waves his front paws when excited, and runs and plays with his toys, so I'm a bit confused as he is not lame, and as it happened last week, there would be not scar tissue that has formed.

He is a little dog, around 6 kilo's and just does not appear to act like he has torn these ligaments. Is it normal for a dog with torn cruciate ligaments to walk, run and play like there was nothing wrong with him.

As the surgery is very expensive, I'm just not able to see any symptom to show me why this will be necessary.

Can I please get advice on this.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Go to another Vet and get a second opinion.

Dogs under 10kg, well I have only ever heard Vets recommend that the surgery is optional as they tend to cope very well and make enough scar tissue to keep the joint stable.

If you want to do agility or flyball in the future then that is a different story.

Mel.

[BC]

I think it is possible for the dog to show no symptoms with torn ligaments.

I have had 2 torn cruciates myself, but could still walk normally and do every day activities, but as soon as there was some unusual pressure on my knees, the pain was horrific, but would then go away in a day or 2.

I had mine reconstructed as I play lots of sport, but as SnT said, if you are not going to do any sports with your dog, the joint may be kept stable with scar tissue.

[JulesP]

With my BC she was sound as long as the knee cap was in place. She only held the leg up when the knee cap moved. She never cried or whimpered about it. If I put it back in place for her she would run off again happy as.

I did have the operation but it didn't work. Enough scar tissue formed though to keep the knee in place but she limps.

[anniejac]

My dog has been diagnosed with 2 torn cruciate ligaments in his back legs by the vet, which was quite disturbing.

It started last week when I was looking after another dog, and I saw my dog holding his back leg up one time. Then he did it once again, so I took him to the vet. He was x-rayed on both hind legs, and the x-rays were normal, but the vet did the manipulation drawer test and said both legs have torn ligaments.

I find this hard to believe as my dog is quite happy running around and doesn't favour either leg. he stands on his hind legs and waves his front paws when excited, and runs and plays with his toys, so I'm a bit confused as he is not lame, and as it happened last week, there would be not scar tissue that has formed.

He is a little dog, around 6 kilo's and just does not appear to act like he has torn these ligaments. Is it normal for a dog with torn cruciate ligaments to walk, run and play like there was nothing wrong with him.

As the surgery is very expensive, I'm just not able to see any symptom to show me why this will be necessary.

Can I please get advice on this.

My Staffy had her cruciate ligament done about 4 months ago, and she is still favoring the leg, so i have made a appointment with Vet.

It is expensive, but I am unable to understand after getting the op done and paying a lot of money why she is still favouring the leg.

My Vet also came to the conclusion by doing the manipulation test when he originally diagnosed the problem. I realise that a Staffy is a lot heavier than your little dog, but I am still not happy with her progress.

[Tibbiemax71]

When my GSD Zana ruptured her Cruciate she was extremely lame, couldn't put her foot on the ground at all, but being a big dog it might have affected her more. My friend has a Chi who ruptured both of hers and she didnt need the surgery as she is a tiny dog, she copes fine, she is stiff when she first gets up, she is an old dog.

When my vet diagnosed Zana she didn't do ex rays though, just the manipulation thing.

[Georgie-boy]

My Staffy had her cruciate ligament done about 4 months ago, and she is still favoring the leg, so i have made a appointment with Vet.

It is expensive, but I am unable to understand after getting the op done and paying a lot of money why she is still favouring the leg.

My Vet also came to the conclusion by doing the manipulation test when he originally diagnosed the problem. I realise that a Staffy is a lot heavier than your little dog, but I am still not happy with her progress.

Unfortunately paying a lot of money is not going to guarantee the success of any operation. Sometimes we as pet owners expect surgery or drugs to be a cure all when in reality they are not. I have had my left knee operated on twice (same problem both times) and I still favour that leg - doesn't mean the surgery wasn't successful, just means it is a working, weight bearing joint which is not as good as it once was and will continue to deteriorate.

Cruciate surgery is massive surgery and I would certainly recommend those that are unhappy with the proposed diagnosis do get a second opinion.

[anniejac]

My Staffy had her cruciate ligament done about 4 months ago, and she is still favoring the leg, so i have made a appointment with Vet.

It is expensive, but I am unable to understand after getting the op done and paying a lot of money why she is still favouring the leg.

My Vet also came to the conclusion by doing the manipulation test when he originally diagnosed the problem. I realise that a Staffy is a lot heavier than your little dog, but I am still not happy with her progress.

Unfortunately paying a lot of money is not going to guarantee the success of any operation. Sometimes we as pet owners expect surgery or drugs to be a cure all when in reality they are not. I have had my left knee operated on twice (same problem both times) and I still favour that leg - doesn't mean the surgery wasn't successful, just means it is a working, weight bearing joint which is not as good as it once was and will continue to deteriorate.

Cruciate surgery is massive surgery and I would certainly recommend those that are unhappy with the proposed diagnosis do get a second opinion.

The problem is that I don't know if she is in any pain, and I would say that the Vet is going to want to do a Xray.

It does not bother me at all as long as I know her leg isn't hurting her, but how do we know this. I was told that she would be fine after having the operation,the only thing was that there was a 60% chance that her other leg might end up with the same thing.

So because she is still holding up her fixed leg, she is bearing more weight on her good leg, which in turn could cause the cruciate ligament to go in that leg also, so that is of great concern to me also.

What a dilemma!!!!

[Georgie-boy]

Totally understand your concern. It's possible that her leg favouring IS a pain response...but then I am not a vet. If only our pets could talk huh??

[Tibbiemax71]

My Staffy had her cruciate ligament done about 4 months ago, and she is still favoring the leg, so i have made a appointment with Vet.

It is expensive, but I am unable to understand after getting the op done and paying a lot of money why she is still favouring the leg.

My Vet also came to the conclusion by doing the manipulation test when he originally diagnosed the problem. I realise that a Staffy is a lot heavier than your little dog, but I am still not happy with her progress.

Unfortunately paying a lot of money is not going to guarantee the success of any operation. Sometimes we as pet owners expect surgery or drugs to be a cure all when in reality they are not. I have had my left knee operated on twice (same problem both times) and I still favour that leg - doesn't mean the surgery wasn't successful, just means it is a working, weight bearing joint which is not as good as it once was and will continue to deteriorate.

Cruciate surgery is massive surgery and I would certainly recommend those that are unhappy with the proposed diagnosis do get a second opinion.

The problem is that I don't know if she is in any pain, and I would say that the Vet is going to want to do a Xray.

It does not bother me at all as long as I know her leg isn't hurting her, but how do we know this. I was told that she would be fine after having the operation,the only thing was that there was a 60% chance that her other leg might end up with the same thing.

So because she is still holding up her fixed leg, she is bearing more weight on her good leg, which in turn could cause the cruciate ligament to go in that leg also, so that is of great concern to me also.

What a dilemma!!!!

That is exactly what happened to Zana, she was not using the leg that had the surgery at all and putting all her weight on her "good" leg, a week later the "good" leg cruciate went!! Zana isn't 100% on her back legs now, she has arthritis in her knees as well and she is getting on a bit, she will be 12 years in October. The vet told me the reason her cruciate's went was because of the arthritis, it eats at the ligament and fray's it, much the same way as a rope would fray and eventually it snapped.

In saying that my FIL's Corgi had a cruciate rupture when she was young, she chased a ball and turned too quick, you would never had known she had surgery, she led a normal life and never limped.

[Rappie]

My Staffy had her cruciate ligament done about 4 months ago, and she is still favoring the leg, so i have made a appointment with Vet.

It is expensive, but I am unable to understand after getting the op done and paying a lot of money why she is still favouring the leg.

My Vet also came to the conclusion by doing the manipulation test when he originally diagnosed the problem. I realise that a Staffy is a lot heavier than your little dog, but I am still not happy with her progress.

Have you been back for regular checks with your vet - ie. do they know you're not happy and are concerned with the progress?

It can often take a while to get back to adequate function - non weight bearing on leg that has had a cruciate repair is not absolutely indicative of pain. All of the techniques that are commonly used involve "changing" the joint somehow. None of the repairs create a joint that is "good as new" but aim to stabilise the joint to allow a return to function. Particularly with an extracapsular repair (DeAngelis suture) although the relative movement between the femur and the tibia is resolved, and the angle of the suture approximates the cruciate ligament, it does apply external pressure to the whole joint where there would not normally be tension. Thus - sometimes the stiffness will be an physical limitation to movement because the joint doesn't flex quite as well as it used to, sometimes depending on the length of time between injury and repair there can be a significant loss of muscle mass that means that the injured leg gets tired more quickly and sometimes the dogs just learn that it is easier to hitch the leg up if you want to run faster. That does not discount the possibility that the leg and joint may BE painful, but it is not the only possibility.

I think if you are concerned that you should get your vet to recheck the leg - I suspect they will be able to give you an idea of what is going on without taking xrays. Since the operation was expensive, you owe it to yourself to try to get the best possible outcome - that will start with a recheck, and possibly some physiotherapy or proactive joint support.

[anniejac]

My Staffy had her cruciate ligament done about 4 months ago, and she is still favoring the leg, so i have made a appointment with Vet.

It is expensive, but I am unable to understand after getting the op done and paying a lot of money why she is still favouring the leg.

My Vet also came to the conclusion by doing the manipulation test when he originally diagnosed the problem. I realise that a Staffy is a lot heavier than your little dog, but I am still not happy with her progress.

Have you been back for regular checks with your vet - ie. do they know you're not happy and are concerned with the progress?

It can often take a while to get back to adequate function - non weight bearing on leg that has had a cruciate repair is not absolutely indicative of pain. All of the techniques that are commonly used involve "changing" the joint somehow. None of the repairs create a joint that is "good as new" but aim to stabilise the joint to allow a return to function. Particularly with an extracapsular repair (DeAngelis suture) although the relative movement between the femur and the tibia is resolved, and the angle of the suture approximates the cruciate ligament, it does apply external pressure to the whole joint where there would not normally be tension. Thus - sometimes the stiffness will be an physical limitation to movement because the joint doesn't flex quite as well as it used to, sometimes depending on the length of time between injury and repair there can be a significant loss of muscle mass that means that the injured leg gets tired more quickly and sometimes the dogs just learn that it is easier to hitch the leg up if you want to run faster. That does not discount the possibility that the leg and joint may BE painful, but it is not the only possibility.

I think if you are concerned that you should get your vet to recheck the leg - I suspect they will be able to give you an idea of what is going on without taking xrays. Since the operation was expensive, you owe it to yourself to try to get the best possible outcome - that will start with a recheck, and possibly some physiotherapy or proactive joint support.

Going to Vets on Monday, went back for regular checks after she had it done and she had weekly injections of cartrophen for 4 weeks, so I will let you know the outcome on Monday.

[nellbell]

Lots of different experiences there. Wow, this seems to be such a common problem.

My vet quoted $600 - $800 for the repair on one leg, which is the deAngelis (think thats how its spelt) type repair. Though she said that the second leg will need to be done within a couple of months after .... I won't go into my financial affairs etc, but at the moment thats a lot of money.

My dog has been put on anti-inflammatories, he is a placid dog about 2yrs old, but still bounds and zooms when he's excited.

The vet said that if nothing was done, he would build up scar tissue and as he got older would have very bad arthritis, then his quality of life would have to be looked at and assessed. The vet basically said that you would have to look at quality not quantity of life. I took this as - if I did nothing, I will drastically shorten his life (certainly a healthy and happy doggie life). So that has left me with the notion that I had to get the surgery done sooner rather than later and that there is no other option unless I was prepared to see him suffer.

But I have read that small dogs can survive without the op, as they don't have to support as much weight, or is it all relative.

I really appreciate all your thoughts and advice on this as I'm also sure this thread is hopefully helping others in similar situations.

thanks guys

[anniejac]

Lots of different experiences there. Wow, this seems to be such a common problem.

My vet quoted $600 - $800 for the repair on one leg, which is the deAngelis (think thats how its spelt) type repair. Though she said that the second leg will need to be done within a couple of months after .... I won't go into my financial affairs etc, but at the moment thats a lot of money.

My dog has been put on anti-inflammatories, he is a placid dog about 2yrs old, but still bounds and zooms when he's excited.

The vet said that if nothing was done, he would build up scar tissue and as he got older would have very bad arthritis, then his quality of life would have to be looked at and assessed. The vet basically said that you would have to look at quality not quantity of life. I took this as - if I did nothing, I will drastically shorten his life (certainly a healthy and happy doggie life). So that has left me with the notion that I had to get the surgery done sooner rather than later and that there is no other option unless I was prepared to see him suffer.

But I have read that small dogs can survive without the op, as they don't have to support as much weight, or is it all relative.

I really appreciate all your thoughts and advice on this as I'm also sure this thread is hopefully helping others in similar situations.

thanks guys

Thats not bad mine for one leg was about $1400, that is why I am concerned why it she is not using it still, how much is he going to charge to find that out.

[persephone]

When my old Mitch had his op ( one leg) he had been lame on and off for a while, and he coped , but then it got worse.

It didn't really STOP him, but when he was running /twisting, the patella would slip , and then he would stand there patiently and wait for me to pop it back in!

After the op, which I assisted at, and found fascinating...he was heavily bandaged and out of action for weeks...and after a long recovery, was never troubled again, and went around happily chasing sheep and rabbits etc til old age.

[anniejac]

My Staffy had her cruciate ligament done about 4 months ago, and she is still favoring the leg, so i have made a appointment with Vet.

It is expensive, but I am unable to understand after getting the op done and paying a lot of money why she is still favouring the leg.

My Vet also came to the conclusion by doing the manipulation test when he originally diagnosed the problem. I realise that a Staffy is a lot heavier than your little dog, but I am still not happy with her progress.

Have you been back for regular checks with your vet - ie. do they know you're not happy and are concerned with the progress?

It can often take a while to get back to adequate function - non weight bearing on leg that has had a cruciate repair is not absolutely indicative of pain. All of the techniques that are commonly used involve "changing" the joint somehow. None of the repairs create a joint that is "good as new" but aim to stabilise the joint to allow a return to function. Particularly with an extracapsular repair (DeAngelis suture) although the relative movement between the femur and the tibia is resolved, and the angle of the suture approximates the cruciate ligament, it does apply external pressure to the whole joint where there would not normally be tension. Thus - sometimes the stiffness will be an physical limitation to movement because the joint doesn't flex quite as well as it used to, sometimes depending on the length of time between injury and repair there can be a significant loss of muscle mass that means that the injured leg gets tired more quickly and sometimes the dogs just learn that it is easier to hitch the leg up if you want to run faster. That does not discount the possibility that the leg and joint may BE painful, but it is not the only possibility.

I think if you are concerned that you should get your vet to recheck the leg - I suspect they will be able to give you an idea of what is going on without taking xrays. Since the operation was expensive, you owe it to yourself to try to get the best possible outcome - that will start with a recheck, and possibly some physiotherapy or proactive joint support.

Going to Vets on Monday, went back for regular checks after she had it done and she had weekly injections of cartrophen for 4 weeks, so I will let you know the outcome on Monday.

Well Vet found her leg to be okay apart from some tenderness where internal stitches were placed.

She is on rimidyl for a week, and if these make no difference it means that she is uncertain herself of putting it down.

The other thing they can do is strap up the good leg to encourage her to use the bad leg. It has put my mind at rest though now that i know she is not in any pain at all.

[InspectorRex]

if it were my dog I would take it to a Vet who specialises in orthopaedics and get an opinion there( one who does regular x-rays for GSD's etc for their hips is what I mean).