The Agility Command "turn"

[bridgie_cat]

Hey guys!

I am asking this for a friend - Lana isnt advanced enough to need it yet

The dvds/books teach different forms of left and right - but in competition I see many handlers that use "turn" - and seemingly for either direction...

was wondering if anyone who uses such a command (or some form of a turning command - diff words and meanings all welcome!) could explain what it means to them/their dogs (ie what situations you use it/what you expect the dog to do on the command etc) and how you trained it!

Thanks

Bridget

[Vickie]

Yep, I use the word "cross". It means turn away from me. I teach it to puppies on the flat starting with a lured spin from my side & then progress it to obstacles as & when they become old/mature enough. I use the same command for both sides, it always means I am about to rear cross/change sides on my dog. It is always given prior to the obstacle so that my dog has an opportunity to change her leading leg before taking off.

I have always envied people who are good enough to use "left" & "right" on the fly...my brain just won't work well enough for that.

[sandyl]

Another way to teach the turns is to have a straight tunnel, with two jumps on either side at one end. Send the dog through the tunnel, then pull him over one of the sides. Keep practising that, eventually adding a command. Hope that makes sense?

I'm teaching my Border Collie this atm. I should of taught him ages ago, but haven't had the need to use the commands in the ring. I do use 'out' though.

Sandra

[skip]

I'm only new to agility. I had a article that explains some agiltiy lessons you could teach without equipment as such. As I didn't have access to an instructor close I did some of these exercises.

One was the word "OFF" and the dog learns it means to run out to a jump or whatever and complete the obstacle. So mine will, if I point to a tree out a few metres run around it. And if I do the same to a jump they will go out and over it. I don't know but is this like "OUT" command, Sandrasm?

And I walk between two jumps, one on my left, one on my right. As I walk towards them in the centre I tell the dog left or right and point accordingly. So is this how you teach Lt and Rt? Will the dog eventually understand the words or is it just the finger pointing?

So teaching "cross" (or left and right) is just a way to inform the dog which side you will be on. That sounds good to me as I started to learn cross behind and found the dog would turn completely around to find where I'd gone. My now instructor said keep trying. I need to cross so the dog knows I've changed sides. So if I say something ( like CROSS) it should work?

I tried throwing food out the way I was going to end up on so that the dog was looking that way. This seems to work too. So I should put the cross behind to a word like CROSS? Is that right?

[skip]

Sorry Sandrasm, I've just read your post again.

If you use the tunnel exercise you mentioned, this would be another way to teach the dog the connection between the command and which side you will be on.

So the command at the end of the tunnel would be right or left if those were the commands you have used?. Thanks!

[leopuppy04]

Yep, I use the word "cross". It means turn away from me. I teach it to puppies on the flat starting with a lured spin from my side & then progress it to obstacles as & when they become old/mature enough. I use the same command for both sides, it always means I am about to rear cross/change sides on my dog. It is always given prior to the obstacle so that my dog has an opportunity to change her leading leg before taking off.

I have always envied people who are good enough to use "left" & "right" on the fly...my brain just won't work well enough for that.

That's me precisely only I use "turn" rather than cross! I was worried they wouldn't know which way to turn, but in they know to just turn 'away' from me etc :D.

I don't know my left and right at the best of times, so how will I be able to on the run and know the dog's left and right :) :D

[Silvawilow]

Yep, I use the word "cross". It means turn away from me. I teach it to puppies on the flat starting with a lured spin from my side & then progress it to obstacles as & when they become old/mature enough. I use the same command for both sides, it always means I am about to rear cross/change sides on my dog. It is always given prior to the obstacle so that my dog has an opportunity to change her leading leg before taking off.

I have always envied people who are good enough to use "left" & "right" on the fly...my brain just won't work well enough for that.

That's me precisely only I use "turn" rather than cross! I was worried they wouldn't know which way to turn, but in they know to just turn 'away' from me etc .

I don't know my left and right at the best of times, so how will I be able to on the run and know the dog's left and right :) :D :D

I've only recently introduced turn (just learned about it recently, I'm just coming out of the dark ages

I tried left and right the first few times and Kiz was so smart that when I told her 'left' which was quickly followed by 'the other left' from me she knew what I really meant - I'm hopeless with left and right!

[kelpiechick]

This is one command I taught my kelpie that I really regret and won't be teaching it to the younger one.

Susan Garrett and Greg Derrett call it the 'motherflicker'

Imagine a straight line of jumps with another jump at a right angle let's say to the left of jumps 2 and 3.

You want dog to take 3 jumps in a straight line but as the dog clears 2, you happen to raise your arm ever so slightly without meaning to and dog turns away from you and takes the jump to the side.

How many times do you see this in a trial?

They are all dogs who have been taught to turn away from handler. (including mine)

Under GD and SG handling system it would not happen as dog learns turning away is not an option.

In this system dog either turns with handler or a 'threadle arm/serpentine arm' is presented to get dog to change their line.

Watch SG perform the 5 jump serpentine exercise at start of 'One Jump' DVD and you will see what I mean.

[sandyl]

Sorry Sandrasm, I've just read your post again.

If you use the tunnel exercise you mentioned, this would be another way to teach the dog the connection between the command and which side you will be on.

So the command at the end of the tunnel would be right or left if those were the commands you have used?. Thanks!

Hmm, yes. This method is used to teach turns. [back, Turn - or whatever words your using]

The following diagram i quickly drew up is just to illustrate what I'm talking about! You can also add in another jump after to teach "go on!"

After you've taught turns, you can go on to doing 'double-box work' to reinforce what you've taught.

Did that make any sense?

[Vickie]

Susan Garrett and Greg Derrett call it the 'motherflicker'

Imagine a straight line of jumps with another jump at a right angle let's say to the left of jumps 2 and 3.

You want dog to take 3 jumps in a straight line but as the dog clears 2, you happen to raise your arm ever so slightly without meaning to and dog turns away from you and takes the jump to the side.

How many times do you see this in a trial?

They are all dogs who have been taught to turn away from handler. (including mine)

Aren't they referring to the opposite arm by "motherflicker"?

I would think that dogs are constantly reacting to lots of ever so slight movements, intentional or not & yes it is the cause of many of courses, but I think it happens in many situations for many reasons.

[kelpiechick]

Aren't they referring to the opposite arm by "motherflicker"?

Not always - a flick or flip occurs any time you turn your dog away from you on course (which does not include a rear cross by that terminology as in a rear cross your body movement, driving the shoulder across the line behind the dog, indicates the turn and you are coming in the same direction as your dog)

Many people do use the opposite arm to indicate a turn away (think of how serpentines are commonly handled, plus rear cross on landing side) which is why SG and GD refer to that as the 'motherflicker arm' , but you can also use the same arm to turn dog away - clean run had a foundation exercise a few yrs ago teaching the dog to turn away at handler's side where the same arm was used - it is this movement I am referring to.

From my experience - taught it, sorry I taught it and won't be teaching it in future.

How many places can you think of on a course where your dog actually needs to turn away from you?

Serpentines, threadles (use threadle arm) rear cross on landing side (don't do them)

The only time I would turn my dog away from me on course would be when I was totally out of position for the cross I wanted to do, in which case, shame on me/bad handler!)

Have seen it on a masters gamblers course that was given to SG to look at at her seminar earlier in the year and she still came up with an alternative to handle it without turning the dog away.

So for me it is not an alternative.

(providing you don't have a problem with moving around a course, then directionals become a issue for sure)

Also not suggesting that people don't teach it if you think it will be of more benefit than not, go for it.

Just to me it is an unnecessary move- more time I can devote to teaching something else.

[Vickie]

How many places can you think of on a course where your dog actually needs to turn away from you?

Serpentines, threadles (use threadle arm) rear cross on landing side (don't do them)

The only time I would turn my dog away from me on course would be when I was totally out of position for the cross I wanted to do, in which case, shame on me/bad handler!)

Have seen it on a masters gamblers course that was given to SG to look at at her seminar earlier in the year and she still came up with an alternative to handle it without turning the dog away.

So for me it is not an alternative.

I guess we are talking about different things. To me, my dog needs to turn away from me (ie change leading legs) every time I execute a rear cross...and I would say that SG's dogs do the same. Her dogs know before they take off that they are turning away from the direction they are travelling as do mine. I tend to use my shoulders more than my arms in a rear & tend to set the line before the jump, but the only difference is an extra step before the jump rather than an extra one after. I don't do rears on landing sides either as a rule, but will occasionally do one for a very awkward contact entry to straighten them up a bit first.

[kelpiechick]

I guess we are talking about different things. To me, my dog needs to turn away from me (ie change leading legs) every time I execute a rear cross...and I would say that SG's dogs do the same. Her dogs know before they take off that they are turning away from the direction they are travelling as do mine. I tend to use my shoulders more than my arms in a rear & tend to set the line before the jump, but the only difference is an extra step before the jump rather than an extra one after. I don't do rears on landing sides either as a rule, but will occasionally do one for a very awkward contact entry to straighten them up a bit first.

Correct.

This is not what I would define as a turn away from handler so I guess we are talking about different things.

Turn away from handler I am referring to is also known as a 'flip.'

[The Spotted Devil]

I've got nothing to add but have to say that agility is certainly a lot more sophisticated than when I last ran a dog (1990s).

Boy, have I got a lot to learn before my lad starts his training

[dasha]

I have taught my dogs left and right.

The older one is better at it as she is more determined to do the obstacles.

For her "BACK" is left and "COME" is right. It means the same thing no matter what side of me she is on although she is usually way out in front being a Kelpie.

She was taught this on the flat with a long line on and then set it up with the line of jumps and offset ones and then threw her ball or toy to land on the other side of the jump she was directed to go to so when she went the correct way, her reward would plop in front of her. This also encouraged her to work away from me but still be listening for directions with an incentive to obey.

As she is a very hard headed dog I felt it better to be able to guide her with steering rather than have to keep blocking her and yelling (as she has selective hearing) to call her off incorrect obstacles in order to get around a course.

The younger dog is the opposite and is very body language affected and voice affected as she is very sensitive and soft.

[sidoney]

Early on SG taught the flip away (e.g. on the first trip to Australia) and later regretted it heartily, for the reasons given - hence it's no longer taught. It's different to what Vickie is talking about.

Someone described it - who was it? - as letting the dog know that it's going to see you out of its opposite eye. Rear cross achieved by handler movement across the path behind the dog.

[bridgie_cat]

ok... this is not what I was expecting exactly... hehe...

so - we have some with forms of the left and right direction commands... and another... cross is essentially the same but the cue for left or right is no longer the voice but your body position?? and then "out" is to go away on the same side??...

does anyone use a word like "check" or even "turn" (but for a different behaviour) and expect the dog to look back at you for a hand signal telling them the direction??

Thanks for the replies - this is interesting stuff!

Bridget

[sidoney]

Dog looking back slows dog and takes its focus off obstacles - dogs have excellent peripheral vision.

[kelpiechick]

Dog looking back slows dog and takes its focus off obstacles - dogs have excellent peripheral vision.

How true - and dog looking back before entering tunnel , even just for the briefest moment, gets called as a refusal on an otherwise clear Masters Jumping course !

[dasha]

Thats why you give them a verbal command for a direction so even if they are out in front you can still steer them where they need to go. No point having them drop a bar or get a refusal for looking back when their ears could have heard what you want.

I don't want my dogs having my body language over ruling and voice commands they have. We have seen before accidental arm movements causing refusals and incorrect direction changes.

If I trip in a hole or slip on wet ground and put my arm up I still want to be able to tell them where to go to get around as best as possible.

Thats just my opinion and how i want my dogs to work. I am not a fast runner and they are Kelpies so realistically I am more than likely going to be somewhere behind them at some point in the course so rather than be calling them back or slowing them down by checking them for a hand signal, I can let them rip around at their preferred speed. Having said that I do have a steady command and a stop command for emergencies.