Puppy Nipping

[Jigsaw]

I have a 12 week old koolie pup. She's quite a nice pup, she's gorgeous but she has a tendency to nip and bite. She is much much better than she was when I got her at 71/2 weeks (jumping and nipping) but the problem still remains.

Generally when she starts nipping, biting, chewing (especially toes -she likes toes), if I am sitting I will stand up and say "don't you bite my toes" and generally blather on in a growly voice and leave the area she is for a short time. Now often she will stand in front and bark at me and try to stop me leaving and nip as I walk away! If I turn my back on her to ignore her she sometimes goes for the ankles or the toes, if she can get at them. She gets worse when she is tired or hyperexcited (just like a kid!).

Does anyone have any extra advice about anything else I should be doing, the family is getting a bit frustrated with it - we haven't had a puppy for about 18 years!! Our last dog went to the bridge 2 years ago at 16 years. We can start walking this weekend after 2nd vacc!!!

[Poodle wrangler]

Koolie's are working dogs, aren't they?

They need lots of mental stimulation and a reasonable amount of exercise.

Good leadership, too.

Start training!

One thing you can start with is Triangle of Temptation (TOT): http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=64101

Even if you don't understand the principles, just do the program exactly as described ..helps teach your dog to pay attention to you and sets up the basis for you establishing good leadership.

[sas]

LOL Puppies are fun aren't they.

Anyone who has had a nippy puppy will tell you that you need to get this under control now otherwise you could end up with a 12 monthd old nipper....not fun at all.

There are many different methods to try and prevent nipping, some work on some dogs and not on others, it's a bit of trial and error.

You said:

if I am sitting I will stand up and say "don't you bite my toes" and generally blather on in a growly voice

I don't have to remind you that she's a puppy not a child, so just one word is all you should be using, not a whole sentence, the dog has no ideal what you're going on about.

As a reminder, any repremand needs to be followed up with praise as soon as the puppy is doing what it is meant to be doing....i.e. not biting you.

Here's some different methods, some people will agree with these and some people won't, I started out with the soft methods on my own puppy but ended up having to be rather firm when he didn't comply.:

1) In a basey voice give a GROWL when she nips you, men are much better at this than woman, if you're a lady, you'll need to practice, it'll probably hurt your throat.

2) Yelp like she really hurt you even if she didn't and then ignore the puppy until such a time you can give praise.

3) Walk away and shut yourself in another room for a minute....granted the puppy won't chase after you and bite you......you've probably already learned that running away can make it worse. When you renter the room, ignore the puppy until such a time you can give praise.

4) Firmly grab the muzzle and GROWL (you don't want to hurt puppy though, so be careful here).

5) Wrap the dogs jowels/lips over its' own teeth so it's effectively biting itself and Growl. - Short not long and drawn out otherwise you'll just have the puppy fighting with you.

6) Put the puppy outside for 2 minute time out, don't say anything, just excourt the puppy outside and shut the door, you may end up doing this 100 times a day, when you let the puppy back in, ignore the puppy until such a time you can give it praise.

7) Re-direct the puppy to a toy and then praise....you're stuffed if you don't have a toy handy.

8) Get yourself a water pistol and squirt the puppy when it bites, be careful though, if the puppy actually sees the water pistol it'll only behave when the water pistol is present. If your Puppy like the water, put some Apply Cider Vinegar in it.

9) Spray yourself with yucky tasting spray you can get from the Vet or Petstore.

10) Completely ignore the puppy for 24 hours, no talking, no touching, no walks, just feed & water it, then after the 24 hours implement the Nothing in life is free (NILIF) method as well as the Triangle of Temptation (TOT).

11) Ask the dog for a command if it knows one such as sit and be ready to give praise of a treat, you may need to carry a bum-bag around with you to dispense the treats. Be careful with this one, you don't want to end up rewarding the puppy for biting, so much sure you ask for a command and then give the treat, don't just lure the dog into a sit.

When the above fails you need to step up the level of dicipline, it is advised that you speak to a qualifed trainer or behaviourist in this regard as you don't want to over step the mark in regards to the dicipline.

Your breed is an active one that requires plenty of mental & physical stimulation, if you didn't get your dog from a Breeder, give the Koolie Rescue a buzz and ask for their advice in regards to how much exercse you can give your puppy.

Edited March 17, 2008 by sas

[Jigsaw]

Thanks for the help!!

Firmly grab the muzzle and GROWL (you don't want to hurt puppy though, so be careful here).

Tried this early on as this was recommended by most koolie owners as being successful - mine only got excited and then went for my hand!! So I stopped this one!! I have asked the koolie forum and they've been really helpful but apparently she's one of the exceptions it doesn't work for! But each dog is different.

Tried the water pistol when she gets going with the cat and it's turned into a game for her but haven't tried the Apple Cider.

I have been working on the NILIF - all food has to be worked for and playing has to sit for ball to be thrown.

Will try the TOT as I think she is doing what she wants when she wants and if she wants to get a treat she'll sit or do whatever I ask. Actually started it last night (without the tie up) with her dinner making her wait before I posted. Will try it outside tonight.

I'm hoping that once we get out and about the extra exercise will help, she definitely needs the stimulation - although walking on a lead is another fight we have - paw on top or lead in mouth or both!!! She's better in a harness but has managed to get herself out of the harness while in the car too!! That was fun!!

Edited March 18, 2008 by Jigsaw

[persephone]

Hi..and good to see you have a spotty dog

Stimulation doesn't always mean a walk... in fact a walk may not be terribly exhausting at all!

hat DOES work is obedience exercises... 'games' like searching for food hidden around the yard.. working hard at operating a treat ball or fully stuffed Kong..

or learning fetch.

having the pup on a leash will help, too.leashes are definitely NOT just for walking long distance.

A leash connection with your pup enables YOU to guide and control her behaviour..to be immediately able to either correct or REWARD ..and to educate her as to her position near you, and the behaviour expected of her when you are together!

being attached to you by her leash, and then rewarded for calm behaviour is a BIG plus !!

Oh..and I thought 16 weeks was the age to go out & about...or am I behind the times again ?

[sas]

persephone,

I think they give different types of vaccinations these days where you have to wait 16-18 weeks.

I had Dante out and about early on, took the risk, but didn't go to dog parks etc.

[Studebaker]

Hi Jigsaw,

I have a Coolie too (he is now almost 2) and am waiting for 2 more pups to age a little so I can add them to the household

What you have to remember with coolies is that although they are working dogs they can be quite soft in personality. I have found that if you tell them off they never forget it - they can hold a grudge but they also get quite upset if you get angry at them.

Water pistols may not work as coolies are renowned for loving water (my boy used to play up just to get squirted, I am sure).

It sounds as though your pup may already be exhibiting signs of wanting to work. It sounds as though she needs to be kept occupied and interested.

As the others said firm growling works but if that doesn't then try what I did....

every time my boy nibbled I squealed in pain - loudly, high pitched and as if I was dying! He only did it a few times and then stopped. Has never nibbled since.

As soon as she can comfortably be exercised then get her out and about. Take her everywhere with you. They are extremely intelligent dogs and although they can spend an afternoon on the couch quite happily they need their brain exercised.

She really sounds as if she is trying to work you so also try to distract her with a ball or a toy. They can get very focused and yes, they can get very annoying at times!

[Studebaker]

PS. They are great agility dogs - they seem to thrive on this. It might be worth considering this as a hobby

[Jigsaw]

Thanks again for your posts!

Vaccinations 1st one 6-8 weeks, 2nd 10-12 weeks and third one month after that. 10-14 days after second vacc dogs are able to be taken outside for walks. That's how my vet does it these days. I still won't take her to dog parks for a while yet - too many unknowns re temperament, size etc.

I think we are getting there with her. She did jump and nip me today and drew blood but that was the first time for four days and she is starting to mouth me rather than biting, well most of the time. She seems to be listening to me now when I yelp whereas previously she would bite harder. She is now giving me this look as if "OMG what've I done"! Maybe my yelp technique has improved.

I did work her hard today - working on "touch", sit, drop, waiting for food even going up and down stairs (in our house) which she hadn't done before. I will definitely continue her education with obedience and/or agility. Even managed to get her to sit while she was concentrating on the cat!!

Edited March 19, 2008 by Jigsaw

[NoodleNut]

Thanks again for your posts!

Vaccinations 1st one 6-8 weeks, 2nd 10-12 weeks and third one month after that. 10-14 days after second vacc dogs are able to be taken outside for walks. That's how my vet does it these days. I still won't take her to dog parks for a while yet - too many unknowns re temperament, size etc.

I think we are getting there with her. She did jump and nip me today and drew blood but that was the first time for four days and she is starting to mouth me rather than biting, well most of the time. She seems to be listening to me now when I yelp whereas previously she would bite harder. She is now giving me this look as if "OMG what've I done"! Maybe my yelp technique has improved.

I did work her hard today - working on "touch", sit, drop, waiting for food even going up and down stairs (in our house) which she hadn't done before. I will definitely continue her education with obedience and/or agility. Even managed to get her to sit while she was concentrating on the cat!!

Hi!

I can empathise ... our Puli (also a working dog) has a tendency to nip heels ... BUT it seems to follow a pattern of her being either tired or beside herself with excitement about going for a walk.

In the instance of the 'tired' pup (she is 16 weeks now) .. I put her to bed in her crate or remove her from us .. outside or tethere din the kitchen out of the reach of our body parts

In the situation of excitement I play a few rounds of fetch with ehr and that definately takes the edge off! Then we can walk in relative peace .. sometimes a correction or two with the lead but no more. If she is really over the top excited it is LOTS of corrections and not a 'nice' walk

I happened to speak to some Kelpie owners/breeders (dunno if they were breeders but they had pups there) at the RSPCA Open Day in Melbourne the other week as I recall my aunts dog (a Kelpie) doing the nipping of heels when we were young). Two of the kelpie owners suggested I head to Bunnings and buy a cheap plastic rake. Next time I walk with her and she is 'nuts' shove the rake down at the back of my leg so it is an unpleasant experience for her.... not to hurt her but lets face it, ... lunging and nipping at a rake is not quite the same as a lovely ankle. I haven't tried this method. Any other DOL members used this method before for their working 'heel nipping' pups?

[Kelpie_Pup]

We have an 18 wk old kelpie pup. Between about 9-12 weeks of age, her nipping was really starting to distress me. Sometimes I could barely pat her without her wanting to have a go. We tried several things. Letting out a big yelp sometimes worked.. it had to be quite exaggerated though for her to really understand it. We too tried closing her mouth and growling at her, but she saw this as us playing her game with her, so that didn't last long. Each time she put our hands or part of us in her mouth, even if it wasn't too hard, we would let out a big "argh!" as though we were really frustrated, and then give her something more appropriate to chew.

We realised that while we were teaching her what we didn't want her to chew, we weren't providing her with suitable alternatives. We would always have a pork chew or one of her toys around so we could put it in her mouth and praise her for chewing the correct thing.

Being a working dog, we have worked very hard to establish ourselves as the pack leaders. I really believe that this has helped us with her nipping. If we are walking through the house, we always make her sit and wait for us to walk through the door before she follows us..the same when going inside or outside. When meal time used to come, she would be running in circles around us, jumping up on us wanting her food. She now knows she must sit at the top of the steps until we give her the "ok" to come down. she will sit and wait at her bowl until we again say "ok". it is very easy to start and really helped us with most aspects of her training. She knows how to sit, stop, stay and come and very rarely mouths our hands anymore-only when she is extremely excited when playing!

When we leave her alone outside when we are at work, we leave little bits of treats around the yard, hide her toys, stuff like that. The only thing we are now having issues with is her deciding its more fun to not "come" on command. Working on that now!

[Guest Nicedoggy]

Dont use a sentence on your pup, use one word for him to learn from. Like no, stop, or bahh,

[NoodleNut]

The only thing we are now having issues with is her deciding its more fun to not "come" on command. Working on that now!

I had to laugh! Noodle turned 20 weeks yesterday (also a working dog - Hungarian Puli) and she has been deciding it is more fun not to come .. I just turn on my heels and come inside .. end of play .. no chasing etc. Backfires on her a bit

We also hide treats around the back yard, use the Aussie Dog toy when I go to work, fill her treat ball with her breakfast and freeze it .. keeps her busy for quite while in the mornings

We have noticed the nipping has definately calmed down although the mouthing was not great last weekend ... reason ... she lost about 6 of her top teeth in one go (who knows where they went??), within 24 hours she went from gummy to having 'nubs' of teeth showing through. On inspection this morning the same thing is happening with the bottom set .. poor thing ... giving her LOTS to chew on!!

Meant to have the first obedience lesson this mornin g.. turned up all enthusiastic to find they had trials on this morning and the classes had been cancelled ... no matter .. no to be outdone we happened to find a couple with a 14 week old boxer so convinced them perhaps the dogs could play .. the boxer hadn't been socialised at all .. they had a WONDERFUL time after the boxer decided that Noodle was actually fun to play with.

I noticed Noodle going into the drop (laying completely prostrate on the gound) looking at teh other dog this morning ... seems she has a real 'herding' instinct ... where are those damn sheep!!

[Jigsaw]

Glad to hear other people have had problems with nipping! I have to day she has settled down, and is mouthing much more although I did notice today a couple of her front baby teeth have disappeared so will make sure she has lots of chewing things around. (She's about 17 - 18 weeks - I think - I'm tired!)

Dont use a sentence on your pup, use one word for him to learn from. Like no, stop, or bahh,

This was actually based on advice to use my attitude rather than the words. Dogs read body language much better than they do words. But I must admit that this technique was discarded as it was not as effective as the yelping - however it has/had to be the right type of yelp otherwise it is ignored! A dog has to be taught what no means first otherwise it is useless, you could train your dog to sit using "no" if you wanted to!

NoodleNut - maybe Noodle is calming herself so she doesn't get too excited when watching those other dogs! My pup did this during puppy classes - it was like "I must not get excited, I must not get excited"! Check out some books on dog calming signals, it's interesting reading if nothing else! If I hid treats in the backyard at the moment they would be sodden messes within minutes it's so wet here!! Go away rain!

Edited April 20, 2008 by Jigsaw

[NoodleNut]

NoodleNut - maybe Noodle is calming herself so she doesn't get too excited when watching those other dogs! My pup did this during puppy classes - it was like "I must not get excited, I must not get excited"! Check out some books on dog calming signals, it's interesting reading if nothing else! If I hid treats in the backyard at the moment they would be sodden messes within minutes it's so wet here!! Go away rain!

Yes, perhaps she was calming herself ... I was SOOO proud of her today when she played with the Boxer .. she backed off a couple of times and sat down and then let the Boxer jump all over her .. then she did the same to the Boxer (good turn taking .. no growling from either of them, no baring of teeth and the Boxer was wagging her tail and initiating play which was great to see. Can't see Noodle's tail as it is curled up!! The boxer was able to be off lead even though she is younger but Noodle is so fast on her feet she could spin on a 5c piece!! Not game to let her off yet.

On the treats point .. try jamming your pups food into a large treat ball (I have used a football shaped treat ball with larger holes .. it is bright orange - she could not get it out of a Kong) and then freezing it. I put a combination of raw chicken meat (usually fatty bits off the chicken fillet, some rice and her rehydratable Advance dry food .. sometimes even a chicken neck in the middle). If you fill it with some water (while in the bag) and freeze it your pup will have to work hard to get her breakfast .. nothing like a bit of mental stimulation to wear her out as well as being rewarded with the food. Perhaps better than leaving food around that will go mooshy in the rain (where the heck are you .. Melbourne is dry!) The other thought is jamming a long thin chew down the middle of a Kong, putting in bits of dried liver in the middle so it falls out more easily and putting a large dollop of cream cheese around the ends and put that in pups dog house.

I also have a plastic box full of all sorts of chew things (not toys) like biscuits, raw hide/pig chew, greenie bones etc. I take out two and let Noodle decide which she wants to chew on. She is sitting on the kitchen floor chewing hard on a bone 'thingo' which was too hard for her 3 weeks ago but now seems to be perfect. I have to watch her soft toys now as I have noticed her chewing ears/noses/and tails off them!!

Lots of appropriate stuff to chew on has certainly curtailed her nipping.

[Frodo]

Does anyone have any extra advice about anything else I should be doing, the family is getting a bit frustrated with it - we haven't had a puppy for about 18 years!! Our last dog went to the bridge 2 years ago at 16 years. We can start walking this weekend after 2nd vacc!!!

The best advice about puppy nipping is in The Bite Stops Here. If the whole family follows the rules it really works!

[Jigsaw]

Can't access the link to The Bite Stops Here for some reason.

Thanks for the tips NoodleNut. I have been giving her pig's ears and bought some pig's trotters today but noticed they have some small bones in them which she politely left outside at the back door! She has chewed one of the kitchen chair's rungs (fortunately the only piece of furniture) and she has a box of toys to chew or chase and she is very good at sorting through for the one she wants! Am going to try and teach her to put them away! The frozen football/kong is a good idea. At the moment she only gets her kong when in her crate with cream cheese of course so I might look for the football thing again - I actually gave one to a friend the other week for her GSD as it was too heavy for Paxy. She had the same problem with getting stuff out of a kong it's often still in there if I stuff it. Haven't tried the greenie bones either - shall get some next time at the store! Your Noodle looks gorgeous!