Food Aggressive Puppy

[peibe]

I am currently fostering 2 out of a litter of 7 pups, I have already rehomed 1 and the other 4 were PTS due to no foster carers

All three of the puppies were food aggressive, which is not that unusual coming from a BYB and once a day feeding pound environment

I am unsure of breeding but going by the look of two and the colouring there is 1/4 at least Staffy in there, the boy acts like a working breed in attemping to herd the other dogs, so some working breed too. But they are really a 4 cross breed or more I would say

When they first came into foster care I feed them seperately for 2 days, just to let them have their fill

Then I introduced the 3 of them to eating out of their own bowls together, they had a few fights that I sorted quickly

I give them bones and supervise eating, removing the bones when they have finished

Once the female that has since been rehomed fully attacked the male and would not let go, she ripped his ear and put some holes in his head

I worked with her over a week and she improved greatly and stopped the food aggression over bones

The male has gone the smallest female a few times over bones, pigs ears etc anything that is out of his normal daily food

Yesterday I heard a big ruksus while cooking dinner and realised I had left one small bone by mistake

What I saw really worried me

The male had the female on the ground by the neck and was shaking the s##t out of her, he has put small holes in her neck, ear and leg

I got him off her and he immediately rolled over on his back to me, which he always does

The girl was in shock, covered in dirt etc as he was dragging her around

She is fine today and they are quite happily playing again

This food aggression and the level he went to yesterday concerns me greatly, I have PTS pups before that have behaved this way as I beleive they are too unstable to rehome BUT this boy is so submissive with my adult dogs and with all people he meets

It is just over bones

I am able to take bones off them anytime with no problems

I started TOT 2 weeks ago and the girls are fine now

What would you do?

I do not want to PTS but he worries me

I am not set up for long term foster care for a pup with his issues, so this is weighing on my mind too

ETA, I let them run with my dogs when I am there to supervise for about one hour per day but other than that they are seperate

Edited March 19, 2008 by peibe

[trishalouise]

Wow Peibe - that sounds pretty serious to me. How old are they? Have you noticed any difference in the boy since doing TOT? My initial thoughts are that unless you can rehome this dog to be an only dog - and probably an adult only home with a person experienced with dogs - I would seriously consider euthanasia. A bit of noise to work out who will get the bone is reasonable - doing physical damage is not. I assume that you can remove high value things from him? What do you think he would do if a child tried to do the same thing?

Hard decision - have been there with a foster myself. There was more to it than just food aggresion - but it was still a heart breaking decision. 6 months after the fact I know it was the right one but still bloody hard.

Good luck.

Trish

[persephone]

Oh

if it were me..I would be not persevering with this pup//sorry.

[Kaz]

I have never experienced this level of aggression in pups though I have heard tales of it.

I would be interested in hearing what the behaviourists say.

[peibe]

Thanks for your replys

I have tested him with a bone and a few different people including getting my 3 year old nephew to walk past him, all he did was drop the bone and follow my nephew to play

My best freinds 10 year old took the bone off him no problem, he will even eat the bone near my Shar Pei adults and will walk away if they come near him, his bone aggression is only directed at his litter mates

I normally would PTS, but there is something about him that is holding me back

Normally I am ruthless in my rehomings and temp testing but in all other areas he tests beautifully

He is not timid or over the top, all food can be taken off him by different adults, teenagers and even 2 people (my neighbours) who he has never meet walked straight up to him and took a bone

I understand where you are coming from persephone and I am the same normally but with him I am holding off

I have been in that same place ginger, having to PTS a litter of 3 for killing another pup and attacking me over food, but he is not like this

I really beleive that this can be worked on by me and maybe in his new home, I know it is resourse guarding and I know he could decide in 6 months to guard a toy etc, but he is a really good pup (excpet for his barking, which is great now) that I have to try my best for him

[BomaBec]

Ive seen pups like this Piebe... was a whole litter and would gang up on each other and would be hard to get them to stop as they just wouldnt let go, it was never picking on just one pup but once one started others would follow, their mum was a lovely natured dog.

I think its a dominance issue.

I have no suggestions on how to fix it but considering he so good in other ways I would give him a little more time to see if he comes around... if there was issues in other areas I prob would say different.

You said his sister had a similar issue and was worked through... sounds like as he was next inline in the order of the pack he is taking over now she is gone....perservere with him and see how the next week goes.

[peibe]

Thanks for that BB, that is how I feel

He has always been top dog out of the three, being larger than his sisters

The smallest has no issues and will make someone the best pet

She was very protective of me when she was sitting on my lap and the others came over for attention, but she almost died on me and I really had to fight to keep her alive and spoilt her more I think

I got that out of her quick smart and she will now share

I really blame pounds for this, puppies only being feed once a day really makes them fight for food, lets hope Cosmolo can help with some training methods that I have not already used

I will do what I have to do regarding him but it will really break my heart to have to put him to sleep

[Poodle wrangler]

Sorry, I'm not experienced enough to advise...

But I was shocked to hear that my standard poodle was food aggressive when he stayed with his breeder her for a few days :p

He's submissive to a 7kg mini poodle and is a very tolerant dog. Zero sign of aggressive of any kind at home. Even when on a "diet" and hungry, he'd give up anything to the 7kg mini poodle including bones. Everything given up to us.

Breeder was straight on to his bad behaviour at her place as all her dogs eat together from pups to avoid this sort of thing developing, but ???

Perhaps not something to view in isolation?

[peibe]

I would not say a dog in a new environment who is used to eating with one other dog to then go and eat with a new pack of unknowns to be food aggressive, I think he is just fearful

On another note

Said puppy in question is only like this over red meat bones

The pups had chicken necks today for lunch and he sat and waited patiently after he had finished his two for his sister to finish so they could play again

So either TOT is working or he is red meat aggressive? has anyone ever heard of this?

[Erny]

Peibe - Would you happen to know how young the pups were when they were taken from the bitch?

Edited for improved grammar .

Edited March 21, 2008 by Erny

[peibe]

It would only be a guess

All 7 were dumped in the pound, no age was given

I beleive they are around 10 weeks now and I have had them 3 weeks, they spent a week in the pound, so around 6 weeks

[Erny]

I imagined it would have been fairly early.

Food possession/aggression is normal amongst dogs and it does not go to follow that the dog who is food possessive/aggressive is necessarily exhibiting dominance to the other dog. Even the subordinate dog will guard food against the advances of an alpha dog within the pack. There is a 'space' zone and there seems to be a "possession is 9/10th's of the law" attitude/rule amongst 'balanced' dogs. The dog guarding its food will normally 'freeze' and posture over the prized food/bone, giving all the contextual cues to another dog breaching the 'zone' by way of warning to back away.

I can only guess at this, but it is possible (likely?) that removal of the pups from the bitch at such an early age has precluded them from learning the 'appropriateness' of the application of this rule as well as the appropriateness of reaction to an encroachment unheeded by warning. I'm also guessing that this pup has learnt very early that aggression does achieve his goal and so is taking it to the extreme where a 'balanced' dog would either quit within reason or not give good cause to its occurrence.

I know this does not give you your "solution", and when it comes to the presence of highly valued food as in this case there isn't likely to be a safe solution at all. But it might serve in part as a possible explanation to this pup's inappropriate and excessive behaviour. Generally, "prevention" is the only method used or that can be used with complete safety in these instances.

Edited March 21, 2008 by Erny

[peibe]

Thanks erny that explains alot

He has been spending more time around my adult Pei as both the pups are lacking in some doggy social skills

I have been able to stop his aggression over pigs ears and other raw foods with TOT, maybe the red meat bone thing will disappear too

Maybe if I crate him with a bone near my pei when they eat their bones he will notice their body language when they eat theirs?

Zeph is pretty good with puppies and food and will growl and warn off, but never bite or lash out at a pup, might try to teach the pup the doggy way

I know some adults dogs that are never given bones due to the same sort of behaviour, he might be one of those

It is not reason enough for me to PTS, i just need to find him the appropriate home

[peibe]

This is the offender

[Erny]

Maybe if I crate him with a bone near my pei when they eat their bones he will notice their body language when they eat theirs?

They would only 'posture' if you have placed the crate where it encroaches their 'zone'. And if the pup did chose to back off he can't, because he's crated?

Zeph is pretty good with puppies and food and will growl and warn off, but never bite or lash out at a pup, might try to teach the pup the doggy way

Perhaps - but I can't be the one to recommend. It needs to be your judgment call - don't know that it would be mine if I were in your boots though. What if the pup pursues the issue with Zeph and an all out fight ensues? One or the other or both dogs may suffer injury be it physical or emotional. It might work, but that doesn't mean it is a "safe" solution.

[peibe]

Zeph will not pursue it with a pup, I am often amazed at what he will put up with but you are right it is too much of a risk

This pup spends his time either laying on his back, licking the Pei's faces or crawling on his stomach to get their attention

Back to the thinking board

Most pups I have had like this overcome their food aggression when they realise there is plenty, it might just take him more time

I am concerned though as the way he beserked

But I intend on getting him through this and finding him the appropriate home

[Erny]

Good luck Peibe. I don't think I can offer more, from where I sit on the other end of cyber-space from you. But by the sounds all other things are ok and as they should be. Please don't discount his submissive nature towards you as not requiring to ID your leadership as he matures. Hope everything works out for the little guy. Wishing you luck in your endeavours.

Edited March 21, 2008 by Erny

[peibe]

I have Pei erny, they need reminders about who is boss

I am a naturally dominant person by nature, so he will get a reminder

I have a friend who does animal behaviour, time to make an appointment I think

[Erny]

I have Pei erny, they need reminders about who is boss

I am a naturally dominant person by nature, so he will get a reminder

Sorry .

"Leadership" - or should I say, lack of it, in my profession, is certainly far from common. (Although not to suggest that there aren't some who do it fine .) I guess I can't help being habitual in my emphasise of its necessity. I do that even when I don't know people on the other side of the computer ...... just in case. I can imagine it would get a little annoying when I'm already 'talking to the converted', so to speak. :D

Thanks for the re-assurance though.

Edited March 21, 2008 by Erny

[peibe]

Thats OK erny

Your posts are always helpful and have been secretly praying you would pop into this thread to give me some advise

I should of put a LOL at the end

It is funny you say that about leadership erny, most of the foster dogs I have had have been surrendered for so called issues, when I get them here and start training I cannot see any of the problems or minimal problems their ex owners discribe, Pei need strong leadership or they walk all over you and become top of the pack

Makes sense