Is This Acceptable Behaviour?

[Kirislin]

A friend of mine has a young GSD, just under a year old. He's a lovely friendly dog to people but IMO spoilt. He's extremely jealous & possessive with other dogs to the point where I dont think it's fair on my dogs (whippets) to take them visiting there anymore. Even when he would come to my house he was possessive over MY dogs water bowl & would attack them if they went to drink. It is worse when we go to visit my friends house. If my dogs go anywhere near the kitchen or the water bowl he attacks them. Needless to say they're terrified of him.

My friend wanted to get a playmate for him & decided a staffy cross would be good, they're friendly, good natured & can take a bit of rough & tumble. She found a litter & took a little 8 or 10 week old bitch home (luckily on trial). In total she only had the puppy for about an hour. Initially her dog was friendly to the little pup but the second my friend went to pick it up the GSD attacked it. I wasn't there but she says that she disciplined him severely but also says she doesn't think it even registered with him (that he'd been disciplined). She took the puppy back & is now resigned to the fact that she cant get him a companion. She rang her trainer to ask about the dogs behaviour & he said that the dog has been bred for that behaviour & the trainer appears to think it is acceptable.

I can see the appeal of this dog too, he's beautiful, & very friendly to people but so jealous that I really believe he's quite dangerous. Are my expectations unreasonable?

Linda

[Greytmate]

Hi Linda,

I don't think your expectations are unreasonable at all.

Dogs are not "good" or "bad" in the moral sense of the word. They either have behaviour that is desirable or undesirable. This dog is not jealous, rather it seems to be displaying dominant aggression.

If the dog is displaying undesirable or dangerous behaviour (and it obviously is, or your friend would not have rung the trainer and you would not be posting) then you can and should do something about it. I find it a little unusual that the trainer would find this behaviour desirable, and personally, I would not be contacting him again.

To correct this sort of behaviour she will need help from an experienced trainer who understands her need to have a dog that is not aggressive. She will need assistance to ensure that she is handling the dog correctly, and the dog will need training to discourage it from it being aggressive.

I would not recommend that your friend gets another dog, until the problems with her current dog are sorted out. I feel that she has to really want another dog, rather than just buying one to be a companion to the first dog. You are right to keep your whippets away from the dog while it is behaving in this dangerous way.

Good luck with this.

[Tarmons]

I agree with Greytmate. It is totally unacceptable behaviour from any dog including a large breed such as a GSD. Actually I would say that it is even more concerning that the owner tolerates such behaviour from her large dog who is not yet fully mature.

It seems to me that the pack order is totally out of kilter and the GSD is the boss. On the other hand it would take a little more time than a brief introduction to expect a jealous spoiled dog to accept a puppy. No wonder he wanted to kill it because he saw it as a rival. It would have been better if she had placed the puppy in a crate and allowed her spoiled GSD to get used to it and have only good things happen around the new puppy -such as giving treats for acceptable behaviour.

I would definitely get another trainer! The GSD was out of line - Fancy saying

'That's what the dog is bred for!'

Another thought - the GSD may have been putting the puppy in its place. They make an awful lot of noise and the puppy no doubt was screaming but it may have been all sound and nothing else. That is also part of the pack order- exerting dominance. I

[Kirislin]

Thanks for you replies so far.

I'm telling this 2nd hand, I didn't hear what the trainer actually said but I think he must have meant it's to be expected with a dog like that. I think he used to train police dogs & his own GSD is trained to a very high level. But I still disagree with what he says about this particular dog.

From the time she got this dog as a pup he concerned me with his aggression & dominance issues. I kept hoping she would train him out of it but it has only got worse.

Tarmons thanks for you reply too, I dont think he was putting the puppy in it's place as he attacked it when my friend picked it up.

I've seen what he's like with my own whippets too. He was 'playing' chasey with them once except that when he finally caught up with them 'cause they'd had enough & wanted to stop the game he was really nasty. Not just play growling but fair dinkum having a go like he was pissed off with them for running away from him.

as long as he's the only dog around he's a delight but I do think he's potentially dangerous, especially to young kids or anything he considers beneath himself in the pecking order.

Now to figure out how to tell my friend.

Linda

[Steve K9Pro]

K:

She rang her trainer to ask about the dogs behaviour & he said that the dog has been bred for that behaviour & the trainer appears to think it is acceptable.

K9: 2 things are possible, the story told to the trainer was not accurate or, the trainer has no idea...

GSDs are not bred to attack anything..

The puppy is being allowed to behave this way & should be put under control....

[Kirislin]

I wrote this almost 2 years ago & sadly things have gone from bad to TERRIBLE! This dog is now a real danger & my friend has alienated herself from everyone, even me & we have been mates for about 33 years. Her husband died about a year & a half ago & she uses that as an excuse for spoiling the dog. It's not true, she was already spoiling him.

Since I wrote this he has bitten me on the leg & become a total monster. She has been asked to leave her dog training school because she wouldn't abide by the rules, the dog attacks other dogs, even puppies.

Another friend tried to get her to leave the dog for the first time in its life & go for a walk around the block. Not a good idea, the dog, not surprisingly got frantic & broke into her house, then dug a hole in her carpet at the front door, trying to get out. I feel so sad for her & the whole damn situation but she has caused it herself completely. I cant get through to her, I suggested yesterday that she should muzzle him & she exploded & said 'he's not that bad' how bad does he have to be I wonder? I had a massive bruise from where he bit me & even now 8 months later there is still a scar & skin discolouration where the bruise was. She has never even asked me about it. This is just a tragic story & I am powerless to do anything, I dread the final outcome.

Linda

[Erny]

I dread the final outcome.

So do I - and unfortunately it will be the dog that pays for it .... if not also someone who is badly bitten by the dog, as well as all the innocent, well trained and socialised dogs out there who will suffer as a consequence of the media outburst.

Your friend is being completely anthropomorphic at the expense of this dog. If she knew better, she'd realise all of what she does is not for the dog .... it is for herself only. If she loved the dog she'd listen to you and a professional trainer (one who knows his/her stuff and doesn't say things such as "this is normal for that breed" ... assuming this IS what your friend was previously told) and set things to right.

If she did this the dog would certainly be a lot happier; a tragic ending might be avoided (if it's not to late for behaviour modification - and the longer this is left the less likely, or at least the more difficult and time consuming it will be) and your friend would reveal her selflessness rather than the selfishness that she is now exhibiting (albeit through tough circumstances).

Perhaps show her this thread. You might lose a friendship over it, for a while. But when your friend realises you wrote here out of genuine concern for her and her dog, there's a chance she will come around in time.

ETA: We can't help those who will not help themselves (or in this case, the dog), so your friend is the only one who can take that first step. Assuming she did not misunderstand the earlier trainer's advice, then he needs a kick in the ankle (or higher) for letting this one slip through the net when things could have been fixed with less effort.

Edited August 11, 2006 by Erny

[poodlefan]

Kirislin:

I feel so sad for her & the whole damn situation but she has caused it herself completely.

In which case, save your sympathy for the dog. Ask your friend what she thinks would happen if she had to go to hospital? What is she had a fall in the house?

The result for that dog of any inability by your friend to care for it is likely to be a lethal injection. Her treatment of the dog will probably result in a death sentence - is that "love"? Not according to me.

Its a pity you didn't report the bite (I understand why you didn't)... perhaps a visit from the local ranger might have been the jolt your friend needed.

Does she know that she could still get help with this dog?

[Kelpie-i]

I suggest that you tell your friend that she is "loving her dog to death" - LITERALLY!!!

My concern is if/when this dogs starts thinking it's okay to bite children. Your friend is very lucky up until now that no-one has made any serious reports about her and her dog, but I fear it's only a matter of time.

She needs the help of a qualified behaviourist - and NOW!

[chaos_chick]

Whereabouts are you located? I'm sure someone here could suggest good behaviourists in the area.

[EmmaA]

Kirislin, Your friend needs help or it is all going to end in tears.... try directing her to this forum or show her this thread. She is not doing herself the dog or the breed any good with her reaction. She needs to be made to understand that this dog is now manmade dangerous, kelpie-i is right, will it be a child next....... I have had an aggressive dog, I know what it is like to be constantly watching and making excuses for your dogs behaviour - its no life for her or the dog. She needs help now - Good Luck you will need it

[Kirislin]

Thankyou to everyone who has responded. The problem is, is that she is in denial. She has had help & good advice but refuses to listen. When I first wrote this post almost 2 years ago I was angry at the advice I believed her trainer had given her. Now I dont think it was true, I think that's how she interpreted it.

When her dog bit me, she didn't discipline him at all. She said, "I didn't see what happened" to me that almost sounds like she thought it could've been justified.

I have said in the past to her that he is dangerous & what will she do if the ranger comes to take him. She pretty much hints that she will either take off with him or maybe kill herself.

The dog trainer she used to see is a good one, I am sure, but advice is only good if one listens. He finally gave up on her because she was a liabitily to his business. He was worried he'd be sued if her dog attacked something/one. I dont blame him.

I somehow doubt I will ever hear from her again after our last phone call. We have been friends for most of my life & the whole thing just breaks my heart but I honestly feel powerless to help her now. She will not listen to anything which involves putting this dog down a peg or two, to his rightful doggy place. She places him above all else, even herself. I really think she's lost the plot.

Linda

[Benji's Mum]

If he's dangerous and gets out then there are new laws with a $55,000 fine - ouch.

My OH reckons 'ABOUT TIME'.

[Rusky]

I think exactly as poodlefan does

Give her a scenario? the dog can't be boarded, no one can care for it.

Tell her that she will lose her dog if she doesn't listen. poor dog.

The dog needs immediate attention

[haven]

I think you need to consider that the situation with the dog is a symptom of a bigger problem. It sounds to me like your friend needs immediate attention just as much as the dog does. I'm not posting this to be rude in any way, but the denial, the isolation and the hints that she would kill herself etc suggests to me that your friend has some problems that need to be addressed by a professional.

[Griffo]

dont mean to be harsh but it sounds like it is your friend that needs help. i would be just as worried about her.

[wyvernblade]

Yes I agree, your friend sounds like she's needs the help just as much, once she is sorted she will be thinking in a much clearer way, reasoning responsibly, and will then be able to cope with doing something about the dog. It sounds like she is suffering from depression, has isolated herself, and see's her dog as her only friend, so she can't bring herself to see the actions of her 'friend' as being harmful.And every time someone suggests doing something about the dog, she is taking it as a personal attack on her choice of 'friends'! I would maybe show some concern for her as a friend, very hard I know, I have had a very good friend commit suicide and nothing I said or did got through, so it can be impossible, but would start with her first and then hopefully the dog will benefit! Good luck and let us know how you go!

[Erny]

I think you need to consider that the situation with the dog is a symptom of a bigger problem. It sounds to me like your friend needs immediate attention just as much as the dog does. I'm not posting this to be rude in any way, but the denial, the isolation and the hints that she would kill herself etc suggests to me that your friend has some problems that need to be addressed by a professional.

In light of your latest post, I tend to think as Haven does. This girl needs help first.

[Kirislin]

You are exactly right, she is suffering from depression & sees her dog as her soul mate now I think. I have tried to support her but she is just shutting down & closing herself off to people.

I am afraid of her dog because I know she will do nothing to stop it from harming me or my whippets. The last time I went to see her I left my whippets at home & she was all disappointed. I told her it was safer for them but I could see she thought I was mean to her dog for not bringing his 'friends'. She kept on saying he wanted me to pat him & tell him he was a good boy. I wanted to ignore him because he bargearses up to me shoving me with his head to demand attention.

I think she can see I dont like him & so now I am pretty much the enemy as well.

She is seeing a psychologist who she says is helping her but I doubt the psych is getting the full story as to exactly what's going on. I am at a loss.

Linda

[jls]

Krislin, your poor friend is in as much need of help, as her pet.

As you've probably realised, both are intertwined. To help your poor friend, to even be able to leave her beloved Gsd alone, the pet issues will need to be tackled first.

Try visiting, and join her in establishing the pack hierachy in the house. She will have to do it, or the dog,will still be confused as to who's leader etc.

When doing this, place the dog outside - for safety.

Start with very basic ideas, if the pet sleeps in her room,she must move it's bed to say,Ie the laundry, (or where ever is suitable)than place it's water bowls and food bowls there. Move toys there also,if applicable.

Allow pet,into investigate, with bedroom door firmly shut~!~ Your friend must fuss over her pet, tell it,what a good dog it is,when it's in the laundry or designated spot. Might take a while for it to adjust,to the realisation,it's no longer in the bedroom etc. (this one maybe tough,as the dog,probably serves as security to her,since her husbands' passed)(Say nothing about that, but be supportive as she does it)

With ball in hand of your friend, call pet, than walk outside, it will probably attempt to barge past her at the entrance way, your friend is to block it,with a firm toned "No"~! and exit first, than her pet. This applies when leaving or entering any room. Than, praise dog,after she leaves behind his owner or enters each time.

Go play ball, make these adjustments fun for both. When a game of ball is over, reapply above situation upon entering.

Than,she must send pet outside, while you chat to your friend. Let dog see, both yourself and your friend.

Let you and your friend enjoy a little company time together,Enjoy a little R'N'R together over coffee and chat etc, give the dog the idea, it is still second to your friend and yourself.

( your friend will finally have a little time to relax with you without worrying her pet, isn't coping etc. I suspect,the dog helps her cope also,but having your company,with transfer the support she feels from her pet, to you,atleast in that period)

And in the duration of friends catching up, she will be instilling the hierachy lesson to her pet,minimal stress,hopefully for you all.

Get her to follow and strictly inforce these changes in their lives,permanently.

When lunch is over, get your friend to call the dog in, with trusty ball in her hand,and start basic training.

"Come"~!

Dog obeys her - Big fuss, lots of praise.

"Sit"`!~

if, not compliant immediately, show the ball above the dog's head and motion towards tail.

Usually, gets the dog to sitting position.

When it does so, Big fuss

Whilst in sit position ~

"Drop"~!~

used the ball to draw dog forward,until on it's belly.

Big fuss, praise etc

Get your friend to pat dog,on the head. (also establishes, she's the boss, in a circumstance,pleasurable to dog)

(By, getting the dog to sit, than drop, you are also establishing,a submissve pose)

Practice these training commands daily. Continues to establish pack heirachy in the dogs's mind.

I'm not trying to be patronising in simplifying the situation, step by step, it's so you can be able to support your friend to train her pet etc.

When the dog is behaving,or acting in an antisocial way, get your friend to Firmly say "No" Than do the above training techniques in a firm but calm tone and demeanor.

Ignore bad behaviour and distract with good training behaviours.

Reinforcing in it's mind who's in charge.

Make your weekly lunch visits, like this, only, sit,come, drop commands,followed by ball game.

Than leave him outside to play, whilst you and your friend can relax an spend time together, support her through her obvious loss.

Your company, obviously is the only company she has,and I'd say 33yrs of friendship is a rare and special gift,worth the time. You obviously care about her,because you are looking for answers for her. She's very lucky in you, as her friend.

My second guess,is, this dog,brings her solice, not just from it's unconditional love and support,and evening security, it's a reminder of her passed husband. This dog was apart of her family unit along with herself and her husband.A family unit she was once apart of. She was someone's wife,and to her pet,someone's mum etc.

It will take a long time for her to heal from such a loss, a long marriage is a huge chunk of someone's life etc. Luckily,your friendship, is also a huge chunk of her life.

Hopefully,they're be a time, when she has her pet at a comfortable level of behaviour,when your lunchs could be branched to outings etc. cafes,movies etc

The dog has separation anxiety,which will have to be addressed before this happens,but you'll get there.All the dolers can give you advice,when that comes etc.

And as you get to outings,and broaden her existance, you could help her find support through councillers for her grief etc. If not support through your friendship.

I wish, you,your friend and her pet the very best.

I hope I've helped etc.

Here the dolers have such a broad range of collective experiences,not just in the canine world but in life and I feel sure,they can offer you support,if you want it. Please let me know how things go.

jls