Chia Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 (edited) I've just booked Finn in for desexing, but I've just realised he might not be old enough. He was born on 19th of May, which I guess makes him almost 5 calender months old or 22 weeks old. Is this old enough to be desexed, or should I call the vet again and have it reschedueled for next month sometime? ETA: He's a Labrador. Edited October 13, 2008 by Chia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gareth Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 What breed is he? I would wait till at least 6/7 months - longer for a large breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chia Posted October 13, 2008 Author Share Posted October 13, 2008 Oops, I really should have mentioned that. He's a Labrador. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 (edited) Breed is an important consideration as is a chat to your breeder if applicable - they will have a lot of experience In terms of growth - it makes no difference whether you have a pup desexed at 12 weeks or 5-7 months....pup will tend to grow very slightly taller regardless. For a large breed, I would personally wait until growth plate closure before desexing - there is no evidence that desexing later in large breeds will prevent joint problems but it's a very grey area. ETA: Just saw your response, Chia - I would definitely suggest a chat with your breeder as they will know the risks for their particular lines. The above still applies, so if you want to get pup desexed in the next month or two, doing it at 5 months or 7 months will make no difference to his growth. Edited October 13, 2008 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chia Posted October 14, 2008 Author Share Posted October 14, 2008 Breed is an important consideration as is a chat to your breeder if applicable - they will have a lot of experience In terms of growth - it makes no difference whether you have a pup desexed at 12 weeks or 5-7 months....pup will tend to grow very slightly taller regardless. For a large breed, I would personally wait until growth plate closure before desexing - there is no evidence that desexing later in large breeds will prevent joint problems but it's a very grey area. ETA: Just saw your response, Chia - I would definitely suggest a chat with your breeder as they will know the risks for their particular lines. The above still applies, so if you want to get pup desexed in the next month or two, doing it at 5 months or 7 months will make no difference to his growth. I just had a chat with the breeder and she says it's fine to have him done now, but if I want to leave it until he is 12 months or so he would probably grow a bit bigger and more "boyish". I'm not really sure what to do... he's nowhere near as big as our old dogs (12 and 14), but I imagine it probably takes quite a few years to grow into full size? (I'm not sure, I was very young when those dogs were pups and I don't really remember them being any size other than they are now...). Desexing him now won't stop him from growing, surely? As I understand it, he just might be a little smaller than he would have been otherwise? I've always admired the big blokey labs, but I adore Finn regardless of what he looks like, so I'm not really sure how much I care. In short, I am now more confused than ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Hopefully I can clear this up for you - I know it's confusing! Basically, when the growth plates close in your lab's long bones he will have reached his full height. The sex hormones promote this growth plate closure. If you have him desexed before the growth plates close (which can be anything up to 18 months), you remove the sex hormones and thus growth plate closure is slightly delayed - therefore you end up with a very slightly (note I said very slightly ) taller dog. This tends to be accentuated by reduced muscle development - again this is promoted by testosterone. This is probably what your breeder was referring to by your lab growing "bigger and more boyish". At the end of the day it's a case of weighing up your particular situation. I have an entire male Dalmatian but he is an absolute handful - fine with me but others have real problems handling him (even my OH ) - if he belonged to anyone else I would probably suggest desexing him but I can manage him with no problem, keep him confined (i.e. no escaping for romantic rendezvous) etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chia Posted October 14, 2008 Author Share Posted October 14, 2008 Hopefully I can clear this up for you - I know it's confusing! Basically, when the growth plates close in your lab's long bones he will have reached his full height. The sex hormones promote this growth plate closure. If you have him desexed before the growth plates close (which can be anything up to 18 months), you remove the sex hormones and thus growth plate closure is slightly delayed - therefore you end up with a very slightly (note I said very slightly ) taller dog. This tends to be accentuated by reduced muscle development - again this is promoted by testosterone. This is probably what your breeder was referring to by your lab growing "bigger and more boyish". At the end of the day it's a case of weighing up your particular situation. I have an entire male Dalmatian but he is an absolute handful - fine with me but others have real problems handling him (even my OH ) - if he belonged to anyone else I would probably suggest desexing him but I can manage him with no problem, keep him confined (i.e. no escaping for romantic rendezvous) etc. Wow, thanks a lot, I think that makes sense now. Just to confirm I have the right end of the stick = a desexed dog might be slightly taller, but less bulky? I am def. getting him desexed - my brother used to have an entire male and he was a nightmare (wandered all the time), plus I promised the breeder than I would. I think I will probably just get him desexed now - I'll never know what he would've looked like if I'd waited, but you can't miss what you never had and I think he's very handsome already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Yep - you've nailed it If you waited until 18 months to 2 years you wouldn't see such a dramatic difference - in the end, it's impossible to tell how dramatic that difference will be because you have nothing to compare him to (even litter mates don't make a great comparison because of different genes, different environment in utero and different environmental effects due to upbringing). To maximise joint health (which is probably the biggest concern) keep your young dog nice and lean, feed the best quality food that suits your budget and your dog (raw OR commercial) and don't over do fetching play (due to the twisting nature of stopping) and running on hard surfaces (i.e. don't take him jogging) whilst he is still developing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chia Posted October 14, 2008 Author Share Posted October 14, 2008 Yep - you've nailed it If you waited until 18 months to 2 years you wouldn't see such a dramatic difference - in the end, it's impossible to tell how dramatic that difference will be because you have nothing to compare him to (even litter mates don't make a great comparison because of different genes, different environment in utero and different environmental effects due to upbringing). To maximise joint health (which is probably the biggest concern) keep your young dog nice and lean, feed the best quality food that suits your budget and your dog (raw OR commercial) and don't over do fetching play (due to the twisting nature of stopping) and running on hard surfaces (i.e. don't take him jogging) whilst he is still developing. Thankyou so much, you've been very helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crest_Fallen Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 My Goldie was desexed at 10 months old (I tried waiting until 12 months on breeder's advice but she was coming in for her second season and she went right off her food the first time and lost too much weight - way too stressful). Breeder said she had finished growing anyway (much to my relief). don't over do fetching play (due to the twisting nature of stopping) and running on hard surfaces (i.e. don't take him jogging) whilst he is still developing. The Spotted Devil, can I ask if this would also apply to toy breeds? I have a Chinese Crested Powderpuff that is only 12 weeks so not yet desexed but he does like to zoom about fetching. Taking him jogging is definitey not a problem here but if he runs up and down on the hard surface in our back garden is that a problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirty Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 I would say you should be careful with all breeds when they are young, but bigger breeds just carry more risk. Most people recommend free exercise - so let them play in the backyard, but don't encourage them to run or throw balls, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgan Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 I've just booked Finn in for desexing, but I've just realised he might not be old enough.He was born on 19th of May, which I guess makes him almost 5 calender months old or 22 weeks old. Is this old enough to be desexed, or should I call the vet again and have it reschedueled for next month sometime? ETA: He's a Labrador. Personally I would not desex a lab pup at this age under any circumstances - apart from the risk of hip dysplasia being increased there is the risk of cruciate ligament rupture. In addition, a study in 2004 in JAVMA (Spain et al. JAVMA 2004;224:380-387) showed that dogs spayed or neutered before 5 1/2 months had a significantly higher incidence of hip dysplasia than dogs spayed or neutered after 5 1/2 months of age. A study by Salmeri et al in 1991 (Salmeri et al JAVMA 1991;198:1193-1203) found that bitches spayed at 7 weeks were significantly taller than those spayed at 7 months, and that those spayed at at 7 months had significantly delayed closure of the growth plates than those not spayed (or presumably spayed after the growth plates had closed). The sex hormones close the growth plates, so the bones of dogs or bitches neutered or spayed before puberty continue to grow. This growth frequently results in a dog that does not have the same body proportions as he/she was genetically meant to. For example, if the femur is normal length at 8 months when a dog gets spayed or neutered, but the tibia, which normally stops growing at 12 to 14 months of age continues to grow, then an abnormal angle may develop at the stifle. In addition, with the extra growth, the lower leg below the stifle becomes heavier (because it is longer), causing increased stresses on the cranial cruciate ligament. This is confirmed by a recent study showing that spayed and neutered dogs have a higher incidence of CCL rupture (Slauterbeck JR, Pankratz K, Xu KT, Bozeman SC, Hardy DM. Canine ovariohysterectomy and orchiectomy increases the prevalence of ACL injury. Clin Orthop Relat Res. 2004 Dec;(429):301-5). http://www.claircrest.com/Problemswithearlyspay-neuter.pdf The breeder is quite right about the pup looking more "doggy" if desexed later, as the skull will develop normally and have a masculine appearance. The chest development will also be more normal with sufficient width. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Spotted Devil - fabulous and informative posts. Well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 As I said, Morgan, it's a very grey area. In the paper by Spain et al. (2004), although CHD was more likely to be associated with dogs desexed at less than 5.5. months, dogs that were desexed after 5.5. months of age and were diagnosed with CHD were 3 times more likely to be euthanised for the condition. 5.5 months is not a very appropriate age to be judging desexing effects either as the dogs haven't finished growing. It's also worth noting that a large number of dogs and owners selected for the study were not able to be traced for the duration of the study and those that did respond may have differed systematically from those that didn't. The Salmeri et al. (1991) study is well known and not a point of contention. I'm mainly familiar with studies on HD and they are terribly inconclusive - even the authors admit that. It really warrants a lot more research though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgan Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Yes, you're quite right - and until the research establishes the facts on the matter, more vets should be advising people to wait until closer to puberty to desex youngsters or at least informing them of the grey areas to let them make an informed choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgan Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Because their only concern is to prevent unwanted puppies, not the future health of the dog. Also, entire bitches are rather keen to find boys when in season, so desexing reduces that urge to escape every 6 months or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 So should the lives of countless others be held less important than the life of one? It's a tricky dilemma. I love a masculine looking dog, but due to my breeds of choice I would probably desex early (6months) in the hope if avoiding undesirable traits. Plus I cant stand the stench of entire dog wee! Although I have read with breeds such as Mastiffs and Neapolitan Mastiffs that it's best to wait until 18 months in order for their chests to develop to help support the weight. I'm in a bit of a quandry with Esme (Stafford pup) at the moment. I definitely want her desexed, but was wanting her head and chest to thicken out a little more before doing so but she's approaching 6 months. I don't think I could cope going through a season and keep asking myself if the stress and mess of it is worth a better looking dog :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 This is what I'm worried about right now. My Aussie is almost 5 months and I'd really like to wait until she's a year old before desexing her. I'm confident we can keep her away from other dogs while she's in season but it will be extra work. :rolleyes: I'm thinking that I should put in the extra effort in order for my girl to grow as she is supposed to though.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonnie N Her Aussie Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 This is what I'm worried about right now. My Aussie is almost 5 months and I'd really like to wait until she's a year old before desexing her.I'm confident we can keep her away from other dogs while she's in season but it will be extra work. I'm thinking that I should put in the extra effort in order for my girl to grow as she is supposed to though.... Aussie, i'd contact your breeder and ask how old lilli's mother and aunts etc all were when they first when into heat. off the top of my head.. Millie's lady relatives were all like 18months before their first heat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 This is what I'm worried about right now. My Aussie is almost 5 months and I'd really like to wait until she's a year old before desexing her.I'm confident we can keep her away from other dogs while she's in season but it will be extra work. I'm thinking that I should put in the extra effort in order for my girl to grow as she is supposed to though.... Aussie, i'd contact your breeder and ask how old lilli's mother and aunts etc all were when they first when into heat. off the top of my head.. Millie's lady relatives were all like 18months before their first heat. Yeah good idea, I didn't think of that. I'd be stoked if it wasn't till 18 months that's for sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now