Too Much Socialisation

[Odin-Genie]

Food for thought: aren't all dogs different in terms of temperament, personalities and motivations? And isn't that part of their charm? Then why do we have to have a 'one size fits all' approach?

I'm not sure I'm following you.

A 'one size fits all' approach to what - socialisation generally?

Partly. But also how people approach their dogs. Perhaps there is no benefit in letting dogs play with each other, but some people do love to see their dogs play. Some others prefer to have dogs who don't interact with other dogs. Each dog is different. Each owner is different. And their expectations from their dogs are also different. So long as no one is interfering with another person's rights (eg letting dogs offlead in onlead areas, not controlling their dogs), why does it have to be one or the other? Let those who choose to neutralise their dogs against other dogs have their preference without implying that they are depriving their dogs. Similarly, let those who choose to let their dogs play with other dogs have their preferred way of life without implying they are spoiling their dogs.

[poodlefan]

how people approach their dogs. Perhaps there is no benefit in letting dogs play with each other, but some people do love to see their dogs play. Some others prefer to have dogs who don't interact with other dogs. Each dog is different. Each owner is different. And their expectations from their dogs are also different. So long as no one is interfering with another person's rights (eg letting dogs offlead in onlead areas, not controlling their dogs), why does it have to be one or the other? Let those who choose to neutralise their dogs against other dogs have their preference without implying that they are depriving their dogs. Similarly, let those who choose to let their dogs play with other dogs have their preferred way of life without implying they are spoiling their dogs.

I agree. Dogs are a social animal. They are also a territorial pack animal. Many dogs do not enjoy encounters with strange dogs. My dogs play with each other and with dogs they know. New dogs are introduced to their circle from time to time. If you saw my dogs playing in their social circle of about a dozen larger breeds, assuming they were all happy to meet a new dog and throwing open the gate to walk in to the paddock expecting to join in without asking would get you yelled at by everyone there.

Those dogs have been socialised into that group since puppyhood and the overwhelming majority of them are entire males who might object to the approach of another male and who might mob and harass a female. The key to successful socialisation is controlled initial interactions - a point lost on many dog owners. You don't do such controlled interactions successfully with a large group of dogs tearing around offlead - you work up to that.

Some folk choose not to let their dogs socialise with others. There are good reasons to do that but it does put an additional responsiblity on the owner to provide a social outlet for their dogs.

Those who choose to let their dogs play with other dogs need to ensure that the owner of those dogs is in agreement. Some folk believe that having your dog in an offlead area is giving agreement. Others, including me, disagree and prefer more controlled introductions.

I don't see this as an issue about 'spoiling' your dog but about exercising courtesy to other dog owners.

Edited April 28, 2009 by poodlefan

[Rusky]

one of my greatest joys is waching dogs play together and I am always sad for the dogs who are unable to play for one reason or another. There was a massive thread, I think started by K9 sometime ago "neutralisation V socialisation". It was an interesting thread and probably very valuable for those who do not wish their dog to socialise with other dogs and great info there for those of us who do

Like Corvus I love Mr G to play, he loves to play too... But if you prefer not to for whatever reason then that is fine. That we have healthy happy dogs is the most important in all this and like training we will differ in opinions.

[Steve K9Pro]

PF: Those dogs have been socialised into that group since puppyhood and the overwhelming majority of them are entire males who might object to the approach of another male and who might mob and harass a female. The key to successful socialisation is controlled initial interactions - a point lost on many dog owners. You don't do such controlled interactions successfully with a large group of dogs tearing around offlead - you work up to that.

K9: Great points, this group of people have invested time & energy into controlled interactions & worked their way up to a comfortable & largely predictable social group.

Seeing their dogs play from afar may lead one to believe that it is a free for all, & unleash their dog to play also. Well it wasn't free for the group, they put in all the work & an unwelcome addition to that group could upset or destroy the pack dynamics they have worked so hard to maintain.

It isn't as simple as loving to watch a dog play.

[Kavik]

I think the issue is doing right by the dog.

Some dogs may be find with rude doggy behaviour and being jumped on, but others are not. Those of us who have learned the hard way that off leash play may not be suitable for all dogs (and whose dogs have aggressive problems due to the type of play allowed) are obviously going to be more cautious in how we approach this in the future.

I have had the opportunity to speak to lots of other people with the same breed as me or breeds bred for the same job and who also do sports, and most are very careful about who they allow their dog to visit and play with.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: There are other considerations but this one is important to me, many people will watch their puppy play, jump on them & so on. When the pup turns into an adult, running off to play, not coming when called & knocking over the owner when jumping on them often means the dog will get punished, in the dogs eyes it is being punished for simply getting bigger.

The behaviours were all ok when he was small.

This is not aimed at any poster here, but there will be people reading this that have done exactly that.

[corvus]

So hopefully this means that if you got a dog who was not interested in playing with other dogs and who could not take being rushed at, humped, jumped on, growled at etc you would not put them in that situation, right? Hopefully you would find out that they are not suitable for the type of dog interactions you like to allow your dogs before your dog has one bad experience too many.

So what, now I have to assure everyone that I don't force my dogs to do things they don't like because I like it when they do it? Fine...

If I push animals too far their trust in me diminishes. That hurts everything I'm trying to achieve with them, so I always keep a close eye on them and stop pushing if their comfort level isn't improving. Having raised a wild hare I can assure you that I know how easy it is to frighten an animal too much and how hard it is to overcome that fear later. It is so much easier with dogs to see the fear before it is a problem and stop. I don't want frighened animals period. If they start to get frightened I have let them down and I'd better do something about it quicksmart. If I want them to like something they currently don't like then forcing them and expecting them to deal is not the way to do it. Kivi hated the water as a pup and wouldn't even get a toe wet. I thought he'd enjoy the beach more if he was comfortable with at least cooling his feet off in the water, so we spent some time gently coaxing him into it. Now he will splash around up to his knees, but he doesn't want to swim so I haven't made him.

[Steve K9Pro]

C: So what, now I have to assure everyone that I don't force my dogs to do things they don't like because I like it when they do it? Fine...

K9: Its clear that your becoming defensive as people point out sections of your opinion that they don't like or see holes in that could cause it others to fail.

If I may offer a suggestion it is that many people on DOL are aware that the posts serve many people for many years, & they strive not so much to disagree with you as they try & highlight to other, less experienced readers & future readers that there may be some things that you point out that may not be the case with all dogs.

I personally don't have an issue with what you have written but I would like to say that, the experiences that you describe with your dogs are not common, the actions you describe would be high on the list of things done by people who I now consult with as their dogs have become fear aggressive.

All I say is that, in what you do, comes a lot of risk.

C: If I push animals too far their trust in me diminishes.

k9: Have you tested this or speaking hypothetically, because most dogs when pushed will display submission, they seemingly beg harder for your attention, not lose trust. If there were no socialisation value to a person that was hard on the dog, this may not be the case but when it is the owner, not so.

I have seen people beat their dogs only to have the dog squirm at their feet the next time, licking their face (submissive act), so all is not what it would seem to be.

From your descriptions it seems that you haven't caused fear in your dogs, but who knows, I have heard for years on here how well some people have trained their dogs & when I saw the same dogs it was laughable.

I guess the problem is that others may read what you write, try & copy that & the risk of failure is high.

Edited April 29, 2009 by K9 Force

[Quickasyoucan]

The other thing that occurs to me when people say I "love to watch my dog play, I think it is unnatural not to let"them is some dogs just don't really value play as they get older.

I sort of wonder where the concept of they must play to be fulfilled comes from? Canis familiaris (or is it canis lupus familiaris) is a domesticated dog, domesticated to humans, not other dogs.

My own dog, who was adopted at 10 months or so having grown up in who knows what environment, showed interest in playing with other dogs maybe for the first year I had him, now really, it would have to be an odd day when he showed signs of wanting to play with other dogs, he's just not that interested.

I have never attempted to actively discourage him from playing, he just prefers to do something else, in his case chase the ball or some other form of activity with me, he likes to "work" to satisfy his drive, not play.

I actually feel sad when I see people trying to force "play" between an obviously scared puppy and another dog.

[Kavik]

So hopefully this means that if you got a dog who was not interested in playing with other dogs and who could not take being rushed at, humped, jumped on, growled at etc you would not put them in that situation, right? Hopefully you would find out that they are not suitable for the type of dog interactions you like to allow your dogs before your dog has one bad experience too many.

So what, now I have to assure everyone that I don't force my dogs to do things they don't like because I like it when they do it? Fine...

That is not what I said at all!

What I meant was that one day you may get a dog that does not like rough and tumble play with other dogs. I hope that if you do get such a dog, that you can recognise that and be more selective about what other dog you let that dog interact with, instead of how you approach dog to dog interactions at the moment, or you may end up with a dog aggressive dog.

As K9 Force said others may do what you have done (or you may do it with a different dog) and end up with a problem.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: The Story of Grace is always a good reminder of how the best intentions can steer a dog downhill fast.

[Ruffles]

K9: The Story of Grace is always a good reminder of how the best intentions can steer a dog downhill fast.

Exactly... we tried to do everything right with Loki, puppy school, obedience, dog shows, and look what we got out of it!

[poodlefan]

K9: The Story of Grace is always a good reminder of how the best intentions can steer a dog downhill fast.

Exactly... we tried to do everything right with Loki, puppy school, obedience, dog shows, and look what we got out of it!

What did you get Ruffles?

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: By the pic in your sig it looks like you got a flying dog lol

[Ruffles]

K9: By the pic in your sig it looks like you got a flying dog lol

Precisely... look how good OB classes were

Poodlefan, Loki is very fear aggressive... very very (IMO, dunno what K9 thinks). He's doing much better now, but we are no where near out of the woods.

[Kavik]

When I first got Zoe, I wanted a dog that I could do obedience and agility with, and have fun with at the local park. There was a dog park less than 5 minutes walk from my house at the time. I guess I thought like corvus that interaction with other dogs would teach her how to read them and how to deal with rough behaviour as after all they are a pack animal right? So I took her to the offlead park for a run.

At first she was playful and appropriately submissive for a puppy, but sometimes did get run into (or over, by a whippet there I remember), I don't remember any horrible attacks or anything that major. Once she reached about 6 months I noticed that she would sometimes act aggressively towards other dogs, and onlead would put on an aggressive display from a distance but be OK if they met. Really confused me and I did not know how to deal with it.

I had taken Zoe to puppy preschool and then to obedience classes from when she was 4 months old, so she had gotten plenty of socialisation.

From 6 months, it just got worse and worse, and I no longer took her to the offlead park, going to quieter parks instead or onlead walks.

My intentions were good, I did what I thought at the time would give me a social dog that enjoyed interacting with others, what I ended up with was a dog that dislikes all other dogs, and that I could not compete with.

[lovemesideways]

This thread is interesting.

I'm in a bit of a different boat. My dog Rover is a family dog, he mainly belongs to my mum and partly to me. Which means that I didn't get to choose how he was brought up. Mum went via the dog park route, shes a real social person so being able to talk to a lot of other social dog people is really fun for her.

This isn't a great way to bring up a dog, but I didn't have a choice, so I made due with the circumstances I was given.

I spent every second we where at the dog park controlling rover and any dog he interacted with. This has resulted in a very happy, loving, social dog. He has no behavior problems, but he is far to interested in playing with other dogs.

My next dog, who will be solely my dog, I would much prefer to go the neutralization route. I really dislike that my dog is quite often more interested in other people and other dogs than in me. My mum loves that rover just loves everyone and everything in the world,

I want to be my dogs world, all the fun and excitement should come from me. I want other people and dogs to be boring non value objects.

I have a very very basic idea of how to achieve this, but once I know when I'll be getting the puppy I'll be planning it out a lot more extensively.

Just shows what different people prefer.

[poodlefan]

This thread is interesting.

I'm in a bit of a different boat. My dog Rover is a family dog, he mainly belongs to my mum and partly to me. Which means that I didn't get to choose how he was brought up. Mum went via the dog park route, shes a real social person so being able to talk to a lot of other social dog people is really fun for her.

This isn't a great way to bring up a dog, but I didn't have a choice, so I made due with the circumstances I was given.

I spent every second we where at the dog park controlling rover and any dog he interacted with. This has resulted in a very happy, loving, social dog. He has no behavior problems, but he is far to interested in playing with other dogs.

My next dog, who will be solely my dog, I would much prefer to go the neutralization route. I really dislike that my dog is quite often more interested in other people and other dogs than in me. My mum loves that rover just loves everyone and everything in the world,

I want to be my dogs world, all the fun and excitement should come from me. I want other people and dogs to be boring non value objects.

I have a very very basic idea of how to achieve this, but once I know when I'll be getting the puppy I'll be planning it out a lot more extensively.

Just shows what different people prefer.

Choice of breed will have an influence there Rover - some dogs are inherently more 'social' than others.

[corvus]

This is getting off topic, but for the record:

C: If I push animals too far their trust in me diminishes.

k9: Have you tested this or speaking hypothetically, because most dogs when pushed will display submission, they seemingly beg harder for your attention, not lose trust. If there were no socialisation value to a person that was hard on the dog, this may not be the case but when it is the owner, not so.

I know this from experience. I spend a lot of time around wild animals and have one as a pet. Frighten them and they become wary of you. Dogs are no different in that, but you are right that they don't do the obvious wild animal thing. It's easy to assume that because they don't run or bite you they trust you just as much as they always have.

I don't actually think socialising dogs is particularly risky provided:

a) You have a vague idea what an aggressive dog looks like

b) You know what your dog looks like when they are anxious or stressed or frightened

c) You stay close to your dog at least to begin with to step in if you see an aggressive or anxious or frightened dog

d) You have a dog that either doesn't scare easily or gets over a scare quickly with no lasting effects.

I don't think it is risky for me because:

a) My dogs don't run up to strange dogs

b) My dogs don't bounce in the face of a strange dog

c) A dog that employs warning signals such as growling or snapping or even lunging is trying to AVOID a serious confrontation. It's just communication. A dog that is using warning signals whether they are subtle or obvious can, IME, be fairly easily convinced not to attack. Sometimes you have to be fast, but often all they'll do is growl or air snap for quite some time. I don't let my dogs aggravate a dog that clearly doesn't like what they are doing, but generally I don't have to intervene anyway because my dogs don't like being snapped at.

A dog that might kill or seriously injure my dog could turn up at any time. So far, I haven't met one that any amount of socialising or neutralising could protect us from. They have attacked even though my dog had been nowhere near them and not even made eye contact. The risk is there every time you step out of your yard, and sometimes you don't even have to do that!

No doubt, K9, you would interpret my dogs' behaviour differently to me. But you'll never know.

There are always going to be exceptions, dogs that just aren't naturally social, dogs that don't want to mingle, dogs that find other dogs stressful or frightening. I have to say I've seen loads of dogs that have been socialised heaps, adore other dogs, but still stick with their humans. So yeah, it still seems extreme to me to prevent all dogs from playing with other dogs just in case.

Incidentally, I should probably point out that in bringing up Kivi I consciously took him to fun places where there would be no dogs when I felt he was getting a bit too excited about the dog park. He had a break from other dogs and had fun with his people instead. I think perhaps that helped reign in his excitement over other dogs and cement in his little mind the notion that people can be fun too and it's worth hanging out with them.

[Steve K9Pro]

I know this from experience. I spend a lot of time around wild animals and have one as a pet. Frighten them and they become wary of you. Dogs are no different in that, but you are right that they don't do the obvious wild animal thing. It's easy to assume that because they don't run or bite you they trust you just as much as they always have.

K9: Dogs aren't wild animals, wild animals wont go up to other wild animals to play that they don't know, their thresholds to defence are much lower than dogs (due to domestication).

If my experience laid with Elephants for example it would natural for me to draw lines of conclusion between the two, but the the two aren't a like just because I can draw a line.

I don't actually think socialising dogs is particularly risky provided:

a) You have a vague idea what an aggressive dog looks like

b) You know what your dog looks like when they are anxious or stressed or frightened

c) You stay close to your dog at least to begin with to step in if you see an aggressive or anxious or frightened dog

d) You have a dog that either doesn't scare easily or gets over a scare quickly with no lasting effects.

K9: Thats quite a list of skills & things you have to keep an eye out for, but they are all flawed.

A. Not all dogs start off by looking aggressive, play can turn aggressive.

B. Your dog may not have read the other dog correctly & look quite ok a millisecond before it is attacked.

C. Three dogs tearing yours apart means no matter how close you are, you cant do a whole lot. Like I said, many don't start aggressive, they turn that way in a flash & I would wonder just how much fun it is if you have to stand on guard waiting for trouble the whole time?

D. A dog that doesn't scare easily or recovers from a scare? But above you said that dogs will lose trust in you if you frighten them?

Now it is ok to frighten them if they recover fast? I am a bit lost in your train of thought.

You have also neglected to tell us what will happen when your dog comes up against a rank dog, the one you described above is defensive/fearful.

The rank dog wont air snap, it wont be trying to shoo your do away but to dominate it. If your dog runs away, the rank dog is as likely to chase it down & pin it, see the video at the bottom.

When this happens it wouldn't be unusual for another dog to join in, pack mentality means attack the weak & have two dogs, maybe even your second dog, attack your first dog.

Numbers don't have to stop at 3 in the fight, it is a coin toss. In seconds your dog could be torn apart.

I don't think it is risky for me because:

a) My dogs don't run up to strange dogs

K9: You have said in previous posts that they slink up to others to join in the play.

b) My dogs don't bounce in the face of a strange dog

K9: Unless they display full submission, the rank dog doesn't need an excuse, plus you have suggested that most dogs bark, growl or snap at them, they must be doing something...

c) A dog that employs warning signals such as growling or snapping or even lunging is trying to AVOID a serious confrontation. It's just communication. A dog that is using warning signals whether they are subtle or obvious can, IME, be fairly easily convinced not to attack. Sometimes you have to be fast, but often all they'll do is growl or air snap for quite some time. I don't let my dogs aggravate a dog that clearly doesn't like what they are doing, but generally I don't have to intervene anyway because my dogs don't like being snapped at.

K9: A dog that has been aggressive for a while can easily turn into a dog that attacks first, they don't run off your rule book nor mine. I don't know how fast you think you are but I have seen dogs fights kick off in the blink of an eye.

If in your description above, your standing by & a dog tries to attack yours, your dog runs into your legs, all of a sudden your both under attack.

A dog that might kill or seriously injure my dog could turn up at any time. So far, I haven't met one that any amount of socialising or neutralising could protect us from.

K9: Neutralisation means your dog wouldn't be there.

They have attacked even though my dog had been nowhere near them and not even made eye contact. The risk is there every time you step out of your yard, and sometimes you don't even have to do that!

K9: Agreed, but risk isn't singular, or linear, there are higher risks & I believe dogs parks are the highest. The methods you have in place so far have worked for you but they are calling on what I would call a lot of luck.

Not everyone is that lucky, & as I said, others read these posts & may go trying what you do to their dogs detriment.

No doubt, K9, you would interpret my dogs' behaviour differently to me. But you'll never know.

K9: probably, but that most likely is as you wouldn't want me to know? I have people here every day tell me what their dogs do & why, when it is explained to them the real reason & what the dog is really feeling, often they agree instantly saying that makes a lot of sense.

There are always going to be exceptions, dogs that just aren't naturally social, dogs that don't want to mingle, dogs that find other dogs stressful or frightening. I have to say I've seen loads of dogs that have been socialised heaps, adore other dogs, but still stick with their humans. So yeah, it still seems extreme to me to prevent all dogs from playing with other dogs just in case.

K9: Above you have come up with 4 things that you need to remember, watch for etc, one of those means you have to be able to move at the speed of light, another means that you hope that all dogs will be fear aggressive. Another means you have to stand on top of your dog so you can be there just in case & the last means you have to have a certain type of dog...

As I mentioned those (flawed) reasons are a big job for an un necessary gain, which may turn into a loss fast.

To make it as simple as it can be:

1.Dogs playing playing with each other is not something they need.

2. Dogs playing with each other can easily turn nasty in the blink of an eye

3. Dogs that gain a high value for other dogs will require more training to regain or obtain obedience (fact) & some people may never regain or obtain that obedience which opens up a whole new can of risk worms.

4. Dogs approaching dogs they do not know isn't natural pack behaviour.

5. Dogs approaching other dogs isn't always welcomed even by the other dogs owner.

6. Something as simple as an air snap at a pup in a fear impact period can turn that pup into a fear aggressive attacker in one instance.

7. Many people cant read dogs well, many dogs cant read other dogs well & many dogs give very little signs that they are going to be aggressive.

I could go on.

Incidentally, I should probably point out that in bringing up Kivi I consciously took him to fun places where there would be no dogs when I felt he was getting a bit too excited about the dog park. He had a break from other dogs and had fun with his people instead. I think perhaps that helped reign in his excitement over other dogs and cement in his little mind the notion that people can be fun too and it's worth hanging out with them.

K9: Anthropomorphism (the humanising of dogs) is the creation of many do problems, your dog doesn't think that way. They work on an associated value system & not much else, but say this section is true, in your last paragraph you took your dog to a park to let him play with other dogs, he got to look it a bit too much, so you took that away & did something else?

How would a human like that?

Finally it is worth taking a look at this clip, you cant see the body language before the aggression started but look at the bigger dog after, no signs of aggression. If you had arrived just after this large dog looks like no threat.

Also when the smaller dog finally was rescued from the larger dog, note what the larger dog does, it jumps on the owner until she had to hold the small dog above her head.

Not so easy to do with a bigger dog & there is solid risk that the larger dog could have attacked that lady in the process.

Dog park

Edited April 29, 2009 by K9 Force