Nekhbet Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 The T4 is Thyroxine precursor for the active T3 (triiodothyronine) made in the thyroid gland TSH is Thyroid Stimulating Hormone, made in the anterior pituitary gland and regulates the secretions from the thyroid gland Thyroglobulin is the protein used by the thyroid gland to make thyroid hormones The tests in USA test for autoimmune responses to T3/T4 and thyroglobulin which means that the body MAY BE producing the thyroid hormones then systematically binding them to Ig (immunoglobulins or antibodies) which is an auto-immune response. hence why tests here in Aus can show levels being OK and yet technically they are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 I'm trying to get a link up to Dr. Jean Dodds forms. They've moved and updated their forms but I'm having trouble with it. That might make more sense than what I've given here. Stand by.ETA: HERE's the link. It lists the testing they do in respect to thyroid. Don't forget that they analyse it differently too. Through their studies they've managed to differentiate not only between small, medium and large dogs, but also by dog breed and by dog age. That's something that we don't do out here - it seems to just be a standard "small, medium and large dog" scale without age and breed being taken into account. Thanks for that! I'll have a look into it (after exams though maybe - it's far too easy to procrastinate now!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 How is it a different test that testing the thyroid for skin issues? I think you misunderstand. The test out here in Australia is not as thorough as the one in the USA. Whether you are testing for thyroid due to skin issues or behaviour or some other symptom, the one in the USA is the more thorough and where the one in Australia might show negative that's not to say that thryoid is not an issue. The test in the USA is more likely to show it up if in fact thyroid is the issue. Hiya, Yeah I understand that, I thought Aiden was meaning it's a whole different test for different issues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Yeah I understand that, I thought Aiden was meaning it's a whole different test for different issues No, different tests for the same issues. The behavioural problems can show up long before any test done here would pick up a problem with the thyroid, if ever. If your dog already had obvious physical symptoms the tests done here might pick it up, not always though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Some interesting info in this thread, thanks Erny. I have not had a problem with any Malinois displaying Idiopathic aggression, I have seen some poorly bred and raised Malinois with dominance and fear aggression through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 Thanks Jeff. I've had a couple of well respected people saying that they are aware of the 'trait' and suggest that it is the conflict between weak nerves and high drive that contribute to it. Anyway, as to the dog in question, the bloods have been drawn and sent off to the USA. Estimated time of arrival is this coming Friday (not sure if that's USA time or AUS time) with results expected within 48 hours after that. The owner reports that whilst her dog was with the Vet (very tense) he exhibited a 'tick' (presuming seizure related). It was very quick, by the sounds, and when the dog was under a lot of pressure. Fortunately, the Vet noted the 'tick'. Afterwards, the dog was very flat. Curiously, when the dog was stress panting and trembling, its heart rate was checked as being normal. Eyes were very dilated but returned to normal when out at the car whilst the owner was filling in the paperwork. Owner has done all that can be done just for the moment. It's now a matter of waiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 (edited) With permission from Enry to post on this thread. On the subject of hypothyroidism and it's relationship with aggressive behaviour etc and based on the subject of this thread, I thought some of you might be interested in the following: My dog's sister was recently tested for hypothyroid by Dr Jean Dodds in America. The symptoms that this dog originally presented were: Extreme aggression towards other dogs Nervous disposition/high stress levels Continous scratching /some skin problems Intolerance of cold weather The owner of the dog is a dog trainer and of course was extremely upset when most of the rehabilitation methods were not working as well as she would have liked to and the dog's aggression levels escalated in some situations. As a puppy, we knicknamed her "Chlomi", short for Chlomicalm due to her nervous disposition. Anyway, I posted in this thread a few pages ago that the owner had decided to send bloods off for testing by Dr Jean Dodds in the USA and the tests have come back with a low thyroid function. Test Requested Results Reference Range Units T4 Please note new FT4 Ranges T4 ↓ 1.32 0.80 – 3.80 μg/dL FREE T4 Free T4 ↓ 0.87 0.55 – 2.32 ng/dL T3 T3 48 30 - 70 ng/dL FREE T3 Free T3 2.1 1.6 – 3.5 pg/mL THYROGLOBULIN AUTOANTIBODIES Thyroglobulin Autoantibody < 1 NEGATIVE % ------------TGAA CONFIRMATORY TEST INTERPRETATION ------------ < 10% = Negative; 10%-25% = Equivocal; > 25% = Positive Elevated TGAA levels confirm autoimmune thyroiditis. False positive results can occur if the dog has been vaccinated for rabies within 30 to 40 days. Thyroid hormone supplementation can decrease TGAA levels. Performed using the preferred Non-Specific Binding (NSB) Method. 15 October 2009 Dear Kate: Thyroid levels are too low here, and support the clinical & behavioral signs. TGAA is normal, so thyroiditis is not the reason for the hypothyroidism. Jean Adult Optimal Levels T4 1.50 – 3.80 μg/dL FT4 0.74 - 2.33 ng/dL T3 40 – 70 ng/dL FT3 1.6 - 3.5 pg/mL X Thyroid levels are below minimal expectations for a healthy performance adult (at least 1.3 µg/dL for T4 and 0.85 ng/dL for FT4). The owner showed these results to a local vet here in Melb (who quickly skimmed over them), to which the vet stated that these levels are "normal" and that the dog couldn't possibly have hypothyroidism as it wasn't overweight and lethargic. The dog will be started on the medication suggested by Dr Dodds and we will be monitoring progress which I will post here from time to time. I find it quite interesting that the vet stated that the ranges were 'normal' when Dr Dodd's report states that they are "too low". My own dog (brother to this dog) also has high aggression levels and also shows the following symptoms: Itchy, flaky skin - very dull coat despite being on an excellent diet Intolerance to exercise - fatigues extremely easily Hyperactivity Nervous disposition (not as bad as his sister) Aggression (as mentioned) I will be getting him tested as well and it will be interesting to see what the results will be since this condition is inherited. Edited October 17, 2009 by Kelpie-i Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 (edited) Kelpie-i what medication will they be using and about how much was it to send blood off and test? Edited October 17, 2009 by Staff'n'Toller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 SNT, here are the suggested meds but am not sure exactly what the vet will actually provide since medications can go by different names. She is currently on the hunt for a vet who is willing to prescribe the meds based on the report. X Thyroid levels are too low. Recommend 6-8 weeks of Soloxine® or equivalent product at 0.1mg per 12 - 15 lbs twice daily (e.g. ?? weight mg BID), followed by retesting thyroid profile 4-6 hours post-pill to monitor response levels. Dose at optimum weight. Optimal therapeutic response levels should be in the upper 1/3 to 25% above the upper limits of the resting optimal ranges at 4-6 hours post-BID thyroid medication. Owner states that the whole procedure, ie drawing bloods, Fedex shipping and testing cost $200. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 19, 2009 Author Share Posted October 19, 2009 (edited) Received notice of the thyroid blood results for the Malinois. Test Requested Results Reference Range Units T4 T4 1.66 0.80 – 3.80 g/dL FREE T4 Free T4 0.99 0.55 – 2.32 ng/dL T3 T3 54 30 - 70 ng/dL FREE T3 Free T3 2.3 1.6 – 3.5 pg/mL THYROGLOBULIN AUTOANTIBODIES Thyroglobulin Autoantibody 2 NEGATIVE % ------------TGAA CONFIRMATORY TEST INTERPRETATION ------------ < 10% = Negative; 10%-25% = Equivocal; > 25% = Positive Elevated TGAA levels confirm autoimmune thyroiditis. False positive results can occur if the dog has been vaccinated for rabies within 30 to 40 days. Thyroid hormone supplementation can decrease TGAA levels. Performed using the preferred Non-Specific Binding (NSB) Method. 16 October 2009 Dear Annette: Thyroid levels are normal here, despite behavioral signs. TgAA is normal, so thyroiditis is not the reason for the borderline T4. Jean Adolescent T4 1.70 – 4.00 g/dL FT4 0.84 - 2.33 ng/dL Optimal Levels T3 40 – 70 ng/dL FT3 1.6 - 3.5 pg/mL X Thyroid levels are adequate overall A disappointing result, IMO, because it could have answered so much for this person and her dog and potentially been an easy or easier 'fix' to her dog's behaviour. I'm a bit curious though. T4 level seems to be a bit on the low side, yet as you'll read in the above report, "thyroiditis is not the reason for" this. What other reasons could there be for T4 being borderline/low? Anyone know? I have asked the owner to ask this of her own Vet as well. I've also asked what her Vet's comments/thoughts are on the "tick" that was observed when the dog was being examined, and the "flatness" the dog lapsed to afterwards ..... and I'm wondering if a lowered T4 could bear any connection to that? So for this dog, the next step I've suggested is a consult with a behaviourist, potentially a Vet/Behaviourist. We've not forgotten that this Malinois could be one of those sporting the 'trait' for which this thread was first started, so much depends on how far the owner wants and can afford to go. But in that, what goes a bit against that thought is that according to the breeder, none of the other dogs in her/his lines have been known to have possessed that trait. Not saying that rules it out, but I'd be thinking that it could point towards a reduced chance of that being the culprit for the behaviour. Edited October 19, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 I'm a bit curious though. T4 level seems to be a bit on the low side, yet as you'll read in the above report, "thyroiditis is not the reason for" this. What other reasons could there be for T4 being borderline/low? Anyone know? Just normal variation, maybe? They've got to draw the cut off lines somewhere to declare things "normal" or "abnormal", but there's a lot of individual variation in most aspects of biology and what would be pathological in one dog might be quite normal for another. Good on you for checking it out, though. Interesting thread. Have you considered just regular epilepsy? I think partial seizures are sometimes associated with random aggressive behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 19, 2009 Author Share Posted October 19, 2009 Have you considered just regular epilepsy? I think partial seizures are sometimes associated with random aggressive behaviour. Thanks for your post, Staranais. The above is a good point. I've already sent the owner an email asking what her own Vet's thoughts were in relation to what seems to be (hypothesising because I haven't seen it) seizure activity. Waiting for a response. But yes - "regular epilepsy" could be an explanation. I'll post back when I have more info. Kelpie-i .... do you know if your dog's sister's owner has sourced out a Vet for a prescription to the medication recommended for her dog by Dr Jean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Have you considered just regular epilepsy? I think partial seizures are sometimes associated with random aggressive behaviour. Thanks for your post, Staranais. The above is a good point. I've already sent the owner an email asking what her own Vet's thoughts were in relation to what seems to be (hypothesising because I haven't seen it) seizure activity. Waiting for a response. But yes - "regular epilepsy" could be an explanation. I'll post back when I have more info. Good luck with it all, it sounds like a real puzzler. If the G.P. vet thinks a medical condition is even a remote possibility, you could suggest referral to a behavioural medicine or small animal medicine specialist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Erny, yes the meds have been ordered and should be received this week. However, the owner consulted with her "regular" vet and showed him the report by Dr Dodds and he stated that he didn't agree with it and that the meds could make things worse. He suggested she spend another $90 doing a full blood check up via his clinic. I suggested that she sees Dr Bruce Syme and asks his opinion instead. Interesting but certainly not surprising. Gabe is booked in for bloods this Thursday and I believe his brother is also going to undergo the test...since they all share the same traits. We learned late last week that the dam's mother had been PTS due to increased aggression (to both dogs and humans) and that ALL of the other puppies from the litter which the dam came from are all in doggy heaven as well due to the same reasons. So the mother (dam) is the only 'surviving' dog out of the entire litter and was bred from. Very frigthening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 20, 2009 Author Share Posted October 20, 2009 I suggested that she sees Dr Bruce Syme and asks his opinion instead. :D He's OS at the moment. Due back 25th October. Gabe is booked in for bloods this Thursday and I believe his brother is also going to undergo the test...since they all share the same traits. Dr. Jean is away until 4th November. I presume her practice continues with the work in her absence, but it might be worth checking by emailing them and letting them know you're organising bloods to be sent there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Thanks Jeff. I've had a couple of well respected people saying that they are aware of the 'trait' and suggest that it is the conflict between weak nerves and high drive that contribute to it. That's really interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardog Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I saw Dr. Bruce Syme at a fundraising day near Ballarat on Sunday. He was one of the guest speakers there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I saw Dr. Bruce Syme at a fundraising day near Ballarat on Sunday.He was one of the guest speakers there. That's odd Sardog, I thought he was away overseas until next week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Maybe Dr. Bruce Syme has copied North Korean President Kim Jong-il and uses body doubles at public appearances whilst he is on holidays?. Erny I would be interested in knowing the pedigree of the Malinois if you are able to mention it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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