Sagittarian Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 at a seminar I attended in the States last year Was the seminar in any way involved with Eagle Pack? Just curious, as I know their stance on this. I've raised many litters of St Bernards on a variety of diets - including BARF. Our experience is that higher calories create problems even in an otherwise sound puppy. Keeping a large/giant breed lean during vital growth years can mean all the difference in the world. I'm really curious about this ongoing belief that protein is the bad guy in raising puppies. If you feed raw, then what is the protein level likely to be? If you feed prey model, again, how high will the protein be? We are talking about a creature that is designed to eat bones, meat, and other protein sources. Are our dogs becoming so distant from their original biology that decent levels of protein suddenly create issues? Marketing of pet food companies aside - where scientifically is there hard evidence that protein is the problem? Sags PS I would now raise a pup on a "high" protein dry food if I believed it was the best dry food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Sagittarian I agree with you on that one. I read stacks of our vet books, both the nutrition ones and internal medicine ones, and all things relating to growth problem in large/giants and diet, was to do with calorie intake and inappropriate calcium/phosphorus levels, and not protein as often mention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sagittarian Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Thanks, Stormie - I value your input as I think you have done more than the average kind of research, and have less of a vested interest than some others. Apart from my own nutrition training, both from petfood companies that I've worked for in the past and my own in depth research, I've observed so much in our own dogs. A breed such as the St Bernard grows so incredibly fast. If one were to restrict their protein intake and replace it with calories, I would see a pup that is not only fat, but lacks lean muscle and bone strength. I might just say that through selection and nutrition, our kennel at its most active had a hipscore average of 2 (breed average 17plus) and an elbow average of 0. We are not without practical experience. At the same time, I understand the approach of breeders who seek to grow their pups slow by restricting protein - whether this is a scientifically sound way to feed I am interested to learn. Sags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 There are a number of great dane breeders in USA who feed and raise their dogs on raw. Surely if protein was the issue, these pups would have terrible structural issues. A good friend of mine had a dane pup which they fed a premium large puppy diet. The pup actually started to knuckle over, and was actually corrected after switching to a raw diet, planned out by their natural vet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted October 28, 2009 Author Share Posted October 28, 2009 Ok. I can't feed Eagle Pack because the main ingredient is lamb. Stormie and Sagittarian seem to know thier stuff.. so i put this to them... both have the main ingrdient as chicken. Eukanuba Large Breed Puppy Nutrient (percent) Crude Protein not less than 26.0 % Crude Fat not less than 14.0 % Crude Fiber not more than 5.0 % Moisture not more than 10.0 % Calcium not less than 0.80 % Phosphorous not less than 0.67 % Vitamin E not less than 140 IU/kg Omega-6 Fatty Acids not less than 2.40 %* Omega-3 Fatty Acids not less than 0.30 %* Glucosamine not less than 375 ppm* Chondroiton Sulfate not less than 35 ppm* Nutro Large Breed Adult Crude Protein (Min.).........24.0% Crude Fat (Min.)................14.0% Crude Fibre (Max.).............5.0% Moisture (Max)..................10.0% Ash (Max.)............................8.0% Salt (as NaCl) (Max.)..........1.2% Linoleic Acid (Min.).............3.5% Calcium (Max.).....................1.8% Phosphorus (Max.)..............1.3% Zinc (Min.)...................430mg/kg Vitamin E (Min.)...........500IU/kg Vitamin C (Min.).........200mg/kg Nutro Large breed adult states: There is a carefully controlled level of calcium and phosphorus, which is ideal for large and giant breeds adult dogs. I am leaning toward Nutro Large Breed adult which will be fed with a raw diet as recommended by my breeder. Is there anything wrong with these levels for a puppy? Also could I feed my 20kg 1.5 yo Kelpie large breed adult food? (I know the answer is probably no) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mim Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) valleywa, just curious why you aren't considering nutro large breed puppy, only the adult mix? These are the stats for nutro large breed puppy formula just in case stormie/sags want to compare.. Crude Protein (minimum) 28.00% Crude Fat (minimum) 12.00% Crude Fiber (maximum) 5.00% Moisture (maximum) 10.00% Linoleic Acid (minimum) 3.50% Calcium (minimum) 1.00% Calcium (maximum) 1.50% Phosphorus (minimum) 0.80% Phosphorus (maximum) 1.30% Zinc (minimum) 240 mg/kg Vitamin E (minimum) 160 IU/kg Ascorbic Acid (minimum)** 35 mg/kg Alpha-Linolenic Acid (ALA) (minimum)** 0.20% Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) (minimum)** 0.10% L-Carnitine (minimum)** 10 mg/kg Glucosamine (minimum)** 300 mg/kg Chondroitin Sulfate (minimum)** 250 mg/kg **Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles. Edited October 28, 2009 by Mim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Sagittarian, I am extremely suspicious of dog food companies who give 'nutrition' seminars also. They are almost always one-side. The seminar was with Prof Ray Coppinger who is a professor of biology and specialises in the study of dogs. One part of his studies is based on the development and accommodative nature of the dog's structure, which is inclusive of their diet. In very brief and not verbatim: Most believe that dogs should eat like wolves (their ancient ancestor) but in reality dogs, (based on the early protodogs before we domesticated them) were scavengers and their diet was very different to that of wolves. To hunt prey animals was very taxing on energy and when food was scarce, scavenging became the easiest (and less energy consuming) option to obtain food for these early dogs. As such, they would scavenge the dumps of the early villagers where they would eat anything they found, ie food scraps and also faeces (of other dogs and humans) which is why some dogs are copraphagic. Anyway, since our dogs are direct descendants of the protodog (who evolved from wolves thousands of years prior), their diet is similar to theirs (minus the faeces of course!) He also studies the accommodative nature of bone development and growth, which is where he stated about the high protein based diets which can be quite harmful if given in high levels to growing puppies. Diets based on protein soley cause bone deformaties due to the accelerated growth produced by protein. Puppies fed a high calorie/lower protein diet grew at a slower rate and as such, allowed the growth of the bones to accommodate into the dog's structure. Protein is certainly important for growing puppies but he believes that many commercial brand dog foods contain protein levels that are way too high. There were other things he spoke about but I would have to dig into my notes. It was very interesting and he showed slides and film of development deformaties based on various things. It wasn't all about diet but it was a major component. After all that, if whatever you are doing is working, then that is the main thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted October 28, 2009 Author Share Posted October 28, 2009 valleywa, just curious why you aren't considering nutro large breed puppy, only the adult mix?These are the stats for nutro large breed puppy formula just in case stormie/sags want to compare.. I was using the Eukanuba Puppy as it was a recommended example but my breeder has told me not to use a puppy food and they know more then me. I want to have a good relationship with my breeder so I think "defying" them or thinking I know better then them this early on will only cause problems. They say the dogs do better on an Adult food, so I will feed an adult food although I really don't see much difference between some varieties of adult food and puppy food, which I hoped to show with my example above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mim Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 valleywa, just curious why you aren't considering nutro large breed puppy, only the adult mix?These are the stats for nutro large breed puppy formula just in case stormie/sags want to compare.. I was using the Eukanuba Puppy as it was a recommended example but my breeder has told me not to use a puppy food and they know more then me. I want to have a good relationship with my breeder so I think "defying" them or thinking I know better then them this early on will only cause problems. They say the dogs do better on an Adult food, so I will feed an adult food although I really don't see much difference between some varieties of adult food and puppy food, which I hoped to show with my example above. Ah, okay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sagittarian Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Diets based on protein soley cause bone deformaties due to the accelerated growth produced by protein. And nobody here has discussed feeding protein solely. As far as comparing Euk to Nutro - I don't mind Euk Large Breed Puppy as we have many customers whose pups do extremely well on it. We used to be the largest retailer of Nutro in this country until it was purchased by Masterfoods and many of the lines changed. I would need to look closely at the individual product now to give my feelings on it as we don't stock the new range. There are any number of great choices out their for owners of larger breed pups - Nutrience is one that we've recently watched a really fast growing pup excel on. Another is Artmis Med/Large Puppy which many Golden Retriever breeders are moving to - perhaps preferring a holistic brand that delivers. There is also Pro Pac Large Breed pup and Royal Canin Maxi Junior is well liked by many. At the end of the day, it really is what your own dog does well on. Sometimes, finding out what is best for them means a few tries at different things. Sticking to your breeder's recommendations is also important unless you do your research, decide you want to chose an alterate that is based upon knowledge, not just hope. And as Stormie mentioned, don't discount a quality, well planned raw diet. A bit more vigilance required, but I am one who believes that dogs are carnivores - not obligates such as cats are - but that they are designed to do well on protein. Sags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted October 28, 2009 Author Share Posted October 28, 2009 My breeder has never used dog biscuts in Australia so is tentative to recommend any brand to me. I think I will feed my puppy Nutro Large Breed Adult based on that it and Eagle Pack are the only dog food I have seen that talk about the 'calcium phosporus balance' and I cant feed eagle pack because of lamb. The percentages don't seem all that diffrent to Euk puppy which I have heard is a good food but as I don't want to piss off my breeder and I have to tell them which dry food to give the puppy before he comes home I will say Nutro Large Breed Adult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mim Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) This Eagle Pack Large and Giant Breed has chicken instead of lamb http://www.eaglepack.com/SP_LGAdult.html And I think this one http://www.pookinuk.com.au/product-selecte...p?productID=376 is chicken meal. Edited October 28, 2009 by Mim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted October 28, 2009 Author Share Posted October 28, 2009 Ohhh and fish! That is supposed to be very good for CBR's! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mim Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Awesome. Not sure where you'd find that first one though, you can't order it from pookinuk. Maybe search DOL for perth eagle pack stockists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pie Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 valleywa: Most pet stores I have been into lately have a good stock of Eagle Pack, I bought a big bag of the small puppy formula from Petstock in Cannington, but have seen a good amount of EP in City Farmers, BP & G etc so you should be able to find it easily enough in Perth. You could probably give them a call and they should tell you if they have it. What state is your puppy coming from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I know quite a few dane people who feed Euk Large Puppy. I fed it to Orbit and had no issues - he did very well on it. Interesting information Kelpie-i, though what doesn't make sense then, is why all the large breed puppy premiums, all base their formulas on lower calories. And I wonder why so many danes that I know of that were raised on a raw diet (Orbit was also put on raw at 10months) are structurally sound. The main thing I could think of with a diet very high in protein, is that it may have been too high in phosphorus, and not enough calcium, hence the problems. But, I'm not going to argue with a Professor I know of someone who worked in an industry which involved her researching pigs raised for human consumption. I can't remember the full ins and outs of it, but it was found that the majority of the pigs slaughtered had OCD - due to the high calorie diets fed to increase growth rate as well as increasing weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 hough what doesn't make sense then, is why all the large breed puppy premiums, all base their formulas on lower calories I am not sure Stormie and am just relaying the info that was passed on. I am, in no way, an expert on the subject. He mentioned the problems with commercial brand dog food, not raw diet and I would suspect that a raw diet would have a good balance of all the nutrients required if done correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted October 28, 2009 Author Share Posted October 28, 2009 My puppy is coming from Victoria. Can't wait!!! I was in BP & G the other day and they had quite a large range of Eagle Pack... might go tomorow after Uni and investigate... Does anyone know if I could feed a Large Breed Mixture to a medium dog? Or if that would have negative impacts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 With the Holistic range, EP have a small/mini puppy, large/giant puppy, and their chicken and rice formula is for small-med puppies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted October 28, 2009 Author Share Posted October 28, 2009 I think I might give my breeder a link to Eagle Pack, Nutro and maybe Eukanuba of the relavant foods and ask thier opinion. Thanks so much for all your help guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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