A Frame Contacts

[pie]

Hi All ;)

I have always trained Kyzer to do a 2o2o contact on both the A Frame and the Dog Walk, we are still using a plastic target because I have been slack in phasing it out. We're not trialling yet.

The DW contact has always been perfectly fine.

The AF contact however - he has always had a problem where when he is approaching the target he will hit it but he will do a bit of a hand stand and his back legs will fly off the AF due to approach speed. He was taught the 2o2o from an early age on very low puppy equipment, gradually increasing, it's only really at full height where he has the problem.

I would always put him back on and make him do it 2o2o (he can do it if he is put back on the end of the AF, but not if he is actually going over it.)

Because this seems to be failing, I'm wondering if I should change to a different method that he will be able to do easier.

I would ideally like for him to do some kind of holding position so that I can catch up to him and figure out where to go next on a course

I tried once to just make him run over it and do a running contact (because most small dogs seem to do them) to test if he would jump, and he did, still hit the contact though.

So I am wondering the following:

Should I change to 4 on the floor and make him drop after the AF (how do you even teach that clearly?)

Should I leave him as he is because he is touching the contact, doesn't really matter that his legs fly off

Should I change to a running contact - although again I would prefer to have a pause after the AF for bad handler reasons and because he is fairly fast and I'm not sure how to teach the RC.

Any thoughts from Contact experts?

Thanks in advance.

[ness]

Sure there are plenty of contact experts at ACWA . My thought is stick with 2o/2o. I know your probably though have you back chained on the full size contact too. Given he is only small you should be able to pick him up and place him ok. I know Kenzie is a bit the same. She is pouncing the bottom of her scramble and not missing the colour but isn't always doing a 2o/2o. I just give her a NRM and wait for her to go back into position but she is still in the learning stages.

[pie]

I always back chained on the smaller ones, not so much on the larger ones, but I do pick him up / lure him up and make him do it again if his legs come off.

You made me think though, if the target is at the AF he will touch it but not necessarily move into a 2o2o position, so maybe he doesn't fully understand? He will just head straight over it usually.

[ness]

I always picking up Kenzie and placing her on the down ramp of her contacts. Just as well she is only 14kg .

[ness]

Argh DOL grelims!!!!

Edited October 28, 2009 by ness

[kelpiechick]

If you're getting a 'handstand' at the end of the AFrame, then your dog doesn't have its weight back on the rear enough.

I would try to do some more foundation exercises to teach dog to get its weight back- as weight to the front can cause shoulder damage down the track. If you have access to Clean Run there have been a few articles over the last couple of years from memory that dealt with this. If you have taught your dog to shift its weight back when tugging then tugging in position on the end of the frame can also be helpful.

Also get someone experienced to look at the position of your target to make sure it's not too far away from the end.

Also best for someone to actually see your contact performance before advising whether to switch to running or not - not something I would do on a forum.

[DeltaCharlie]

I had similar problems with Charlie for a long time, he just couldn't seem to work out how to get his weight right on full height equipment. Until one day when I was annoyed with him for being stupid on the course at training, he didn't even attempt to stop at the end so I pulled him from it and put him in his crate. Amazingly he nailed his A-Frame contact after that Turns out he did actually understand what he needed to do but until there were actual consequences for not doing it right he didn't see the point in trying too hard

He was much further in his training than you though, I didn't use a target for the A-Frame, I did a bit on the DW then transferred that behaviour over to the A-Frame. So he was well and truly aware of what was required. However, a similar principle can still be applied to your situation. If you put the dog back onto the contact every time they overrun it... chances are they will just think that is what happens ("I run over it, do a handstand, fall off, have to get back on, get rewarded") Do you reward the position when you put him back on??? I wouldn't give any more than a quick pat or a "good boy" then ask for it properly (from the start of the obstacle). If he gets it right then he gets a huge reward and lots of playing etc. I would be going back to lower heights to reinforce that he gets a big reward for doing it right (set him up for success until he gets the idea of what is required, that way an absence of reward will be that much more effective).

What are you using the target for? Does he nose touch it? I realised very quickly that Charlie wasn't always getting the target when he nosetouched so I took it away and he still did the behaviour, from there I just had to reward the behaviour. It is the reason why I am never really particular about my dogs hitting the target every time even from the start, so long as they hit pretty close to it. Makes it so much easier to remove the target as it is the bobbing behaviour that is being rewarded rather than the actual touching of the target.

Good luck

[pie]

Thanks for the replies

He bobs, when I take the target away but only if I point to the ground, maybe I haven't been making it challenging enough/ haven't moved on to the next stage correctly? I haven't really used the clicker for training it, maybe if I use the clicker he will start to offer the 2o2o to me.

I have an A Frame at home so I might try as you suggested DC and if he doesn't do it I'll crate him and get the puppy out, that should be huge motivation for him to get it! He'll do anything to keep the puppy locked away

[DeltaCharlie]

Do you point at the ground when the target is there? Is your target clear or coloured? Clear targets are easier to phase out as they are not so obvious to a dog moving at speed. How big is the target?

Make sure you are not doing anything to lead him into position when the target is there- just stand still and wait for him to offer the behaviour. If you think a clicker will help then use it, I use a clicker for teaching initial 2o2o behaviours. Then do the same thing when the target is removed... you want him to be thinking about what he needs to do rather than using cues from you. Otherwise he will forever be dependant on your body to get it right.

And yes, nothing more powerful as a motivator than a second dog We are lucky enough to have 5 currently trialling agility dogs here (the others are retired) so plenty of torture for the dog that mucks up and must join the end of the queue again

[kelpiechick]

He bobs, when I take the target away but only if I point to the ground

In a lot of ways I don't like offering advice on a forum without a first hand view of the problem (which is why I don't often do it) but from your comment above it really sounds to me as if he doesn't 100% understand his 'job' at the end. Not to mention how to use his weight correctly either.

An independent contact performance is just that - dog needs no assistance from you pointing to offer correct behaviour and can in fact move/drive (eventually) to the required postion without you even being in the picture - send, run by, recall, lateral distance, etc. As DC said, you should be doing nothing to indicate/lure the behaviour.

If you don't have this as yet, then there is no way I would be using a time out as 'punishment' - you may end up punishing a behaviour that your dog has not as yet learned correctly which is extremely unfair.

Did you go straight to equipment, modified or not, after teaching on the flat? You should be able to get good, hard multiple touches on a target plate on the ground before moving on. If you have a set of steps (only need one or two) available to you, then move the 'target touching' to the end of the steps. (this also helps with weight back) Only when your dog can offer you the correct behaviour on the end of the steps, without you pointing or moving in any way, would you then move on to backchaining end of equipment. Are you asking for multiple nose touches? It doesn't really matter, but this is a great way when first learning to be able to reward multiple times (almost machine gunning) for one repetition of moving down steps before releasing. Otherwise you have the process of nose touch, reward, release - only one reward each time which makes learning process much slower as it takes longer to build your value for the end position.

For me, I also found it worked fading the target intermittently, which I started on the steps. So once he was offering me behaviour at the end, I then took away the target for one repetition, rewarded highly when I got behaviour I wanted, then put target back again. That way I didn't need to use target on equipment for very long at all, as he had a pretty solid understanding of what I wanted before ever asking the behaviour around equipment.

You also need to have an extremely clear picture in your mind of what you want your ideal contact performance to look like in every way. This is something that I have found is not always easy to do although it does get a bit easier with every dog. Have a look at other contact performances you like, whether from websites or youtube or trials (Crazy Maesy would be a good choice for 2020 ) When Elicia Calhoun was here, she said that she puts her dogs physically in the end position and then photographs it so she says she always has a 'reference point' to look back on. Then writes out step by step how she will acheive this 'end result', dates it, and signs it like a contract. If she makes any changes along the way, then she initials and dates it again.

You need to set your dog up for success in as many ways as you can and break the training down into really tiny steps along the way. I'm not much of a time out person myself, although I do think they can be effective IF you are sure your dog is 'blowing you off' rather than your training or handling being at fault. Trouble is, I don't believe most of the time dogs 'blow us off' on purpose- (altough I'm not saying it never happens) the complex, human thought process some seem to attribute to dogs is amazing. But only you can make that call - just make sure that if you do choose a timeout you are 100% certain it's not an understanding issue. You also cannot assume that your dog will generalise from dogwalk to a frame - very different pieces of equipment from a dog's point of view.

Just saw that you are from WA in which case I totally agree with Ness - you have some amazing trainers and handlers in your own state and I would definitely be relying on their help first. I would love the opportunity to be able to train with a couple of those people, that's for sure.

[pie]

Thanks for the feedback.

He does multiple bobs, I move around, he stays there, I reward him, then release.

He drives to the contact if it is just on the ground too. It seems to be more of the weight shifting that is the issue, or the rear legs coming off, not so much the touching of the contact, he does that fine!

No I wouldn't be giving him timeouts at this stage until I can get an idea that he knows what he is doing, I was going to get the clicker out and see what he offers me and go from there really. He does blow me off at times but that's another issue altogether

Yes we have fantastic people here but I am rather shy and my dog gets nervous around strangers. I'll bring it up at training next week but it is hard to figure what is suitable for my dog because he is small and everyone is used to BCs

[Kavik]

If you're getting a 'handstand' at the end of the AFrame, then your dog doesn't have its weight back on the rear enough.

I would try to do some more foundation exercises to teach dog to get its weight back- as weight to the front can cause shoulder damage down the track. If you have access to Clean Run there have been a few articles over the last couple of years from memory that dealt with this. If you have taught your dog to shift its weight back when tugging then tugging in position on the end of the frame can also be helpful.

Also get someone experienced to look at the position of your target to make sure it's not too far away from the end.

Also best for someone to actually see your contact performance before advising whether to switch to running or not - not something I would do on a forum.

Do you know of any exercises to teach a dog to get its weight back?

[skip]

HI Amypie

Luv your dogs, please post back what advice they give you at training next.

I have a mini dog learning contacts. We have no target now and he was going well. But at his first trial and on full height A-frame he flys and then can't get the stop. If he overshoots, he steps back to touch the A-frame but this is a fault.

I put a short plank at home on a more pronounced slope and practiced the contact behaviour. At first he "blew me off" as it does require a more effort. He looked at me as thou to say " You are joking?". But I am hoping he is getting used to the fact that even if the slope is steeper, you still gota find the position.

Good luck!