Motivational Rewards

[corvus]

The dvd is available, but it's a little pricey. The book is great. I just finished reading it. I liked her idea of reframing stressful situations as a game. It seems amazing how many problems can be very quickly overcome if you change a situation into a known exercise that is fun and rewarding. She talks about problem exercises in agility and overcoming big hangups just through inserting the problem into a structure the dog is comfortable with. One of her examples is a dog that can't handle a start line stay and she just puts the mat there and the dog goes "Oh, we're playing that game. I love that game!" and relaxes enough to be able to do it. One of her dogs loved to play tug, but was so distractable he only needed to hear a noise from the hot water system to run off and forget about playing. She started playing with him for ten seconds, then dismissing him on a break to do doggy things, then playing again. He started opting out of his breaks and deciding to stay with her instead and the more she did it the less distractable he became.

I think I would invest in the dvd if I had a dog that was more reactive.

[Vickie]

One thing I always recommend people do to see if the dog is picking up on handler emotions, is to video yourself playing with the dog and post it on a public forum. I find it can be a good indication & often comes close to replicating any feelings the handler will have in public. If your dogs tugging is less enthusiastic at home while the video is running, then he/she is picking up on your nerves/self consciousness.

[woodbyne]

I dunno... failing handler information, I think if they tug at home with gusto but not anywhere else they just aren't as comfortable with their surroundings. Leslie McDevitt wrote an article once about dogs that only play at home. She recommends teaching them to relax outside the yard using things like the Look at That! game and also teaching them a word to tell them they are about to have a freaking awesome game of tug or something.

Getting something highly motivational to play with definitely helps, though! I have a sheepy tug for Erik that I have just tied to a long ribbon because as much as he adores it when he's in the mood, he wasn't always leaping all over the place for it like he does for his flirt pole. I figured chasing it along the ground seems to get him going like no one's business, so now the sheepy tug goes for little dances along the ground. Erik alternated between carrying it and chasing it most of the way around the block this morning. And every time I got it off him he was ready to do backflips for it. Nice! Actually, I think he did do a backflip for it unintentionally.... not so nice.

Oh, all that reminds me that flirt poles ROCK. I know someone with a high drive dog that had to put the flirt pole away for good because it was way too exciting. Even my low drive Lapphund will chase the flirt pole (although for two months he was too scared of it to go anywhere near it).

Ok i'm stupid whats a flirt pole i don't dare google that

[woodbyne]

I agree with Erny.

Stress levels in a dog have a lot to do with the general 'performance' of a dog when outside of their comfort zone. Work at distance and work on getting the dog comfortable in the environment you wish to train in BEFORE expecting the dog to accept a tug/reward etc.

Corvus, I was listening to a Leslie McDevitt podcast and what she says is very interesting about behaviours in dogs when in stressful environments. "Over processing" I think she calls it....similar to watching 20 different televisions at the same time...too much to take in thereby causing high levels of anxiety, over-reactivity and/or complete shut down. I haven't read her book but it's certainly on my list. On the podcast which was a few years old, she mentions a DVD, has she brought this out yet?

can you please tell me the name of the book or DVD very interessted in that as it seems to be my dog to T

[woodbyne]

The dvd is available, but it's a little pricey. The book is great. I just finished reading it. I liked her idea of reframing stressful situations as a game. It seems amazing how many problems can be very quickly overcome if you change a situation into a known exercise that is fun and rewarding. She talks about problem exercises in agility and overcoming big hangups just through inserting the problem into a structure the dog is comfortable with. One of her examples is a dog that can't handle a start line stay and she just puts the mat there and the dog goes "Oh, we're playing that game. I love that game!" and relaxes enough to be able to do it. One of her dogs loved to play tug, but was so distractable he only needed to hear a noise from the hot water system to run off and forget about playing. She started playing with him for ten seconds, then dismissing him on a break to do doggy things, then playing again. He started opting out of his breaks and deciding to stay with her instead and the more she did it the less distractable he became.

I think I would invest in the dvd if I had a dog that was more reactive.

Can you please tell me the name of the DVD. Thanks while i'm spending money i might as well buy myself a christmas present give it to the kids to wrap up for me.....

[woodbyne]

One thing I always recommend people do to see if the dog is picking up on handler emotions, is to video yourself playing with the dog and post it on a public forum. I find it can be a good indication & often comes close to replicating any feelings the handler will have in public. If your dogs tugging is less enthusiastic at home while the video is running, then he/she is picking up on your nerves/self consciousness.

fantastic idea thanks

[Tassie]

DVD has the same title as the book - Control Unleashed. Cathy has it link here.

And you have the perfect motivational tuggy right on hand - lamby tails - best thing ever in my Kirra's opiinion, Just tie one to a lead or a bit of light rope, and take that with you to training. As the others have said - lots of excitement and chasing around (that's dog chasing you) helps. Treat the dog like a pup when you're at training - let the dog do the tugging at first - even if only a little bit.

ET make it a bit clearer, I hope.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Tassie

[sas]

Hi guys,

I have Rabbit Fur and Roo Tugs, I find the roo hyde too tough, dogs seem to go crazy for the Rabbit though.

I'm happy to make custom if you're interested.

[Tatelina]

Leslie McDevitt wrote an article once about dogs that only play at home. She recommends teaching them to relax outside the yard using things like the Look at That! game and also teaching them a word to tell them they are about to have a freaking awesome game of tug or something.

Link please? I'm not too sure what to google...

[Cosmolo]

Sas, are the rabbit tugs on your site? I couldn't find them

[corvus]

McDevitt's article is called "But he only plays at home!" and was apparently in the July 2005 issue of Clean Run magazine.

I'll post a video of Erik playing with his flirt pole tonight. I've got an older one, but today's is way more exciting. :D

[corvus]

A

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[Erny]

Didn't know that was called a "flirt pole". I am using similar with a dog who isn't keen to get in close to his owner for tug work (through prior training experiences I think the dog finds it a bit intimidating).

But I let the dogs 'win' as I want to build their drive.

Is there a reason why you don't promote winning Corvus? Or was that just that particular piece of video footage? Or maybe your dog just likes the chase only?

Edited December 1, 2009 by Erny

[Vickie]

A

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I am very confused about the purpose of this? What is it supposed to be achieving? I can understand using it like this as Ernyt says if the dogs has no interest in moving objects, but I can see some bad consequences of the way it is used in this clip. Can you explain what you are doing a bit more?

[corvus]

That's just a clip. He's often too quick for me and catches it on his own. That's fine by me; he has fun and that's the main thing. Sometimes I catch it to circumvent the victory lap Erik does every time he gets it.

What's the purpose? :nahnah: It's fun? What's the purpose of any drivey game?

In a more specific sense, Erik is practicing default downs at the moment because I love them and I'm trying to teach him to think through excitement. This is kind of Leslie McDevitt's off-switch game, but today Erik was a bit too "on" and if I wanted to practice that it would have been smart to have left the flirt pole behind and used something less intensely exciting. The off-switch game is played by doing something exciting until just before your dog loses it, then disengaging, waiting for a default behaviour, and then starting the game again. This was going great for us until Erik got the hang of it and now he just downs without thinking about it most of the time, which kind of defeats the purpose of the game as I understand it. So I've started introducing other commands to ask him instead of just waiting for his down. He was doing all right this afternoon, but it was so not the exercise as it's meant to be done.

ETA, you know Erny, as far as I can tell it's generally held that you shouldn't let your dog catch the flirt pole toy, at least not much, because the more they chase it and ALMOST catch it the more they want to catch the damn thing. I could do that with Erik now and it would probably go like that, but when I first started I reckon he would have lost interest if I hadn't let him catch it.

Edited December 1, 2009 by corvus

[Erny]

Be careful that you're not inadvertently teaching him to bark.

Oh - ok, so this clip was just to show what a "flirt pole" is and not to demonstrate its proper use? I'm sorry - I'm a little lost. Does Leslie McDevitt demonstrate the use of the "flirt pole" (is that her name for it?)? Does she recommend use of it in the similar way for similar purpose as I've touched on in my previous post?

ETA: Just saw your edit :

ETA, you know Erny, as far as I can tell it's generally held that you shouldn't let your dog catch the flirt pole toy, at least not much, because the more they chase it and ALMOST catch it the more they want to catch the damn thing. I could do that with Erik now and it would probably go like that, but when I first started I reckon he would have lost interest if I hadn't let him catch it.

Do you think that you would play a game over and over and over again for however many months or years in your life, never getting to win it but learning that the best your could ever do was to only 'nearly' win it, that you would continue to be enthusiastic about it?

Maybe one day you could come and work for me (you'd have to learn not to argue ) and I will 'nearly' pay you , or maybe sometimes pay you, occasionally, mind .... just to keep you interested.

So, for you, the flirt pole would teach 'chase', at best, albeit that it might be fun :nahnah:.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Erny

[corvus]

He has already learnt to bark, Erny! I don't mind a little noise during fun, but as part of the off-switch game my feeling is he shouldn't be that excited. Erik has other ideas. The only time he stops barking is when he's concentrating or sleeping, basically. But he's only a puppy after all. He's getting there through some other things we're doing.

Leslie McDevitt doesn't mention flirt poles. I don't see why there should be a "proper" use of them. They are just a toy. Is there a "proper" use for a ball? You have to be sensible you don't let them hurt themselves, but same goes for any game.

The flirt pole is not a tool to teach anything in particular, Erny. It is what you make it. Not really any different to a tug toy or a frisbee. Provided the "pay" was the chase for a dog, they would work for the chase alone, and I don't think they'd get tired of it if you primed them well to begin with. I have no interest in doing that, though. Erik loves catching it and so I let him a lot of the time. Plus it's adorable to watch him do his victory lap, parading it around.

[Aidan]

Do you think that you would play a game over and over and over again for however many months or years in your life, never getting to win it but learning that the best your could ever do was to only 'nearly' win it, that you would continue to be enthusiastic about it?

Seems to work for greyhounds. No doubt the chase itself is very rewarding. I prefer dogs to be able to tug and release on cue though.

[Erny]

Seems to work for greyhounds. No doubt the chase itself is very rewarding. I prefer dogs to be able to tug and release on cue though.

Does the training of greyhounds in the preparation phase include not giving the greyhounds 'wins' ? When I worked at a greyhound racing kennel (many moons ago, admittedly) the training and practice included 'wins'.

He has already learnt to bark, Erny! I don't mind a little noise during fun, but as part of the off-switch game my feeling is he shouldn't be that excited. Erik has other ideas. The only time he stops barking is when he's concentrating or sleeping, basically. But he's only a puppy after all. He's getting there through some other things we're doing.

I'm just saying be careful, Corvus, unless barking as a learnt behaviour to 'demand' the movement/throw of the ball is what you want. I noticed in the clip that when he barked (which was when you'd stopped the game) you then started up the game again which in effect is reinforcing the bark.

Erik loves catching it and so I let him a lot of the time. Plus it's adorable to watch him do his victory lap, parading it around.

Oh. I didn't see that in the clip. I think he won it only once (and I got the impression that was by accident). Hence what raised my query.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Erny

[Aidan]

No doubt wins are always going to be part of any game like this (even accidental, it's still a schedule), but rarely are when it comes to chasing wallabies or possums. I remember a young wallaby hopped across our path once, Django went to chase and the wallaby got caught in some fallen tree branches. Django pretended like he couldn't find the wallaby, hahaha Even when given a golden opportunity to actually catch one, he didn't take it. He really just wanted to chase.

I think it was Nina Bondarenko who told me she would never let her working Rotts catch a "thong on a string" she used to use as a really big reward (this is why I think it was Nina Bondarenko, an American would have called it a "flip-flop on a string" for obvious reasons). Obviously, the dogs got to 'win' a lot in their SchH training, but never this particular toy.