Eye Contact

[Pete.the.dog]

Hi all, just wanting some clarification on the whole eye contact with dogs thing.

I've read a lot of stuff which all sites eye contact with dogs a bad thing - if a dog is seeking eye contact with you it is a sign of dominance etc, and the whole stare-off for control kind of concept.

But during obedience we are told to teach our dogs to watch us on command - is this supposed to be so that we have the control and/or respect of the dog to do what we tell it, or just so we have their attention? But if it's just an attention thing, then where does the dominance eye contact theory come into it?

The reason I ask is that I've been working on Petes watch command, and he does it, mostly very well (especially waiting for the ok to eat his dinner) but sometimes when we are waiting to cross the road he is a bit hesitant to look me in the eye. How would that relate to the dominance eye contact theory? Also he is now looking me in the eye more at other times - and according to 'the theory' that is a sign of dominance, but could it not also be because he has learnt that eye contact is a good thing?

:D

[Bully]

Hi p.t.d,

There's a difference between eye contact and the hard staring of a dog, which is what is referred to as dominance. Eye contact that us humans want with our dogs is not natural so takes time and practice to get our dogs to feel comfortable with eye contact :D

[Pete.the.dog]

Hi p.t.d,

There's a difference between eye contact and the hard staring of a dog, which is what is referred to as dominance. Eye contact that us humans want with our dogs is not natural so takes time and practice to get our dogs to feel comfortable with eye contact :D

Thanks Bully - how do you differentiate between the two though? Because when Petes dinner bowl is in front of him he stares pretty hard waiting for the ok :D

[Bully]

Hi p.t.d,

There's a difference between eye contact and the hard staring of a dog, which is what is referred to as dominance. Eye contact that us humans want with our dogs is not natural so takes time and practice to get our dogs to feel comfortable with eye contact

Thanks Bully - how do you differentiate between the two though? Because when Petes dinner bowl is in front of him he stares pretty hard waiting for the ok :D

Wouldn't you? :D Wait 'til you see Pele, "The Porker" starring at the BBQ at the DOL meet, just willing one of those sausages to leap off into her mouth

With a dominance type stare the the dog's whole body tends to go tense.

[Pete.the.dog]

Hi p.t.d,

There's a difference between eye contact and the hard staring of a dog, which is what is referred to as dominance. Eye contact that us humans want with our dogs is not natural so takes time and practice to get our dogs to feel comfortable with eye contact

Thanks Bully - how do you differentiate between the two though? Because when Petes dinner bowl is in front of him he stares pretty hard waiting for the ok :D

Wouldn't you? :D Wait 'til you see Pele, "The Porker" starring at the BBQ at the DOL meet, just willing one of those sausages to leap off into her mouth

With a dominance type stare the the dog's whole body tends to go tense.

Oh ok - definately a different kind of stare then! Thanks for that

[gsdog2]

Not just a "different stare", I think what Bully means is the body language - when my young GSD wants to play she does the whole crouching down, bum up, tail wagging thing and stares intently at whoever she's inviting to play and there's no dominance in her stare (she's the bottom of the pile at our place :D ) . When my Goldie wants to eat he stares intently at whoever's feeding him, waiting for the signal to be allowed to eat - no dominance there either. However if you're scared or nervous around dogs my 8yr old male GSD will be very still and stare - that is a look I stop immediately because I know he's attempting to establish himself as the more dominant in that situation and I'm not going to allow him to use "that" stare.

[raineth]

Yes, one day you will see that stare (I don't necessarily mean in your dog) and you will recognise it immediately. It is very intense and usually whole body is rigid and tail is stiff and up high, sometimes kind of arched over the body. When you've seen it you'll also realise that other looks, like that for 'watch me', have a softness about them.

Maybe you could type 'dominant stare & dogs' into a google image search. Or maybe even a youtube search.

in my experience though, dogs will differ in how intimidating they find it to give eye contact. My Dane boy (below) found it very difficult, and I think it may have had something to do with how submissive he was.

Also, maybe when Pete is out on a walk he feels a little too distracted to give you good eye contact. Or maybe the motivators are not high enough, compared to the motivator of dinner

edited for clarity

Edited January 23, 2010 by raineth

[Pete.the.dog]

Yes, one day you will see that stare (I don't necessarily mean in your dog) and you will recognise it immediately. It is very intense and usually whole body is rigid and tail is stiff and up high, sometimes kind of arched over the body. When you've seen it you'll also realise that other looks, like that for 'watch me', have a softness about them.

Maybe you could type 'dominant stare & dogs' into a google image search. Or maybe even a youtube search.

in my experience though, dogs will differ in how intimidating they find it to give eye contact. My Dane boy (below) found it very difficult, and I think it may have had something to do with how submissive he was.

Also, maybe when Pete is out on a walk he feels a little too distracted to give you good eye contact. Or maybe the motivators are not high enough, compared to the motivator of dinner

edited for clarity

Thanks raineth! I did find a couple of good piccies (not many out there though)

I'm sure you're right - something about being allowed to cross the road just isn't as exciting as dinner

--

One more question on this - so if it's about rigid body language, what if a dog is lying in a seemingly relaxed pose but its head is lifted and it is stareing? Would this not be dominance due to the relaxed body?

[raineth]

Oh, I'm not sure about that Pete

hopefully someone else will shed some light

[flyingduster]

ears can also help give it away, as well as the overall focus of the body and eyes; even when laying down! When laying down, the body can still become rigid and tense, and if the offending dog being stared at didn't back down from the stare, they'd be quick to get up and use their body language to accentuate the dominance they're conveying.

But generally, if it's laying relaxed and simply lifts it's head to stare at something, it's just staring at something, not being dominant.

honestly, a dominant dog stare is so different to a dog looking or even staring at something, their whole body language *oozes* dominance!

[Erny]

Actually, I think if you let your instincts surface, you'll realise the difference between the two. Practice it with a friend (yep - humans communicate this way too, we're just not so conscious of it these days, we tend to bury this natural ability under a cloak of reliance on verbal language) and see if you can spot the differences. Practice 'soft eyes' and 'hard eyes'. Sally Swift (horse trainer) wrote a book on natural horse riding methods - I loved that book ("Centred Riding" - about your balance; your relaxation; and how these things affect or effect your horse). It was an awakening to me that no other riding instructor was able to communicate to me. Coincidentally, after I got the book and revelled in it, I so very fortunately stumbled upon a riding instructor who was taught by Sally Swift, and so began a wonderful feeling and heightened union between my horse and I. I felt as though I was a flower beginning to bloom.) I do believe we actually 'know' what dogs are saying to us more than we allow ourselves to realise.

By comparison, I think verbal language is vulgar and limited. I far prefer body and face language. (Note : I'm not suggesting verbal language should be done away with, but I think we could afford to tune in more to our own body language as well as that of others. In that way we will be more inclined to release our ancient instincts and understand animals and others who perhaps don't communicate very well verbally with us.)

Edited January 24, 2010 by Erny

[BJean]

Here is an example of a dog giving another dog a dominant stare -

dog on left is a 2 year old male

he is saying: Hey, just kidding it's all okay, easy no worries

dog on right is an 11 month old female

she is saying: Annoy me one more time, and you'll know about it.

[raineth]

great photo Lilli

captured a calming signal and everything

[corvus]

Eye contact is one of the most universal things I have ever encountered in vertebrates. You can see this in just about any animal. Nothing much more overtly threatening either within a species or between species than an intense stare. It makes sound evolutionary sense. A stare is no good for anyone being stared at. Usually it means they have come under someone's intense scrutiny, which means they are either being lined up for the next meal or they are being lined up for an attack for some reason. Some animals are very sensitive to eye contact and will be upset by a steady, curious gaze. If you want an animal to relax around you, the very first thing you do is look away from them and make sure you don't look at them for more than a casual glance. And relax your own muscles. That is crucial. Animals are far better at reading out body language than we are.

Social animals tend to be more relaxed about eyes than other species, and predators tend to be more relaxed than prey animals (never stare at one of those highly social monkeys, though!). My dogs stare quite fixedly at me when we are training because they are engaged and very interested, but they don't really look directly into my eyes. Like me when I am very interested in what someone is saying, they look at a your whole face. You can tell how narrow their focus is. We are hard-wired to get this. Like Erny said, let your instincts guide you.

A threatening stare can be surprisingly subtle. My last dog, Penny, was a master at getting her way with a glare. In these cases it is a serious threat of aggression if it is not heeded.

[Longcoat]

Speaking of body lanuage and staring, there is a house with like a wrought iron side fence who has a Rottweiler about 15 metres away from a cycle path that we walk along. The Rotty in that house goes ape barking and bouncing around at any people with dogs on the pathway. There were some people in front of us the other day on the pathway with 2 medium/small sized dogs walking along and the Rotty was going off as they passed and were pulling on the leash away from the Rotty's direction, obviously timid of the Rotty's big bark and carry on.

When we reached the area opposite the fence, my GSD had been watching the Rotty as we approached, the Rotty saw us and started to bark as he does. My boy stopped, gave 2 woofs and the Rotty stopped barking. Both dogs stood motionless staring at each other, no barking, no sound, just staring at each other 15 metres or so apart.

I have no idea what really goes through a dog's mind, but it appeared in my warped imagination that the 2 dogs were sizing each other up. Like the Rotty wasn't used to a dog stopping to stare where most scuttle away from his big bark and performance. It was almost like both dogs had encountered their match, two big dogs that either were unsure of both displaying dominant behaviour. We walked off and the Rotty walked off away from the fence in his yard.

It was an interesting moment to watch an event such a pronounced body language and stare of equal proportion in both dogs.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Longcoat