100% Recall

[pipsqueak]

Having fostered a greyhound and now owning a sighthound mix, I would say that for some dogs, 100% recall is not possible. I understand that there are some greyhounds and sighthounds that have excellent recall under all conditions/distraction, however for my dog it isn't a possibility. Sighthound people talk about "prey drive" - if you haven't seen it, it might be difficult for you to understand. It is like someone flicks a switch, and nothing else in the world exists for the dog apart from the prey... which is usually moving rapidly into the distance. My other dog, a lab mix, has fairly reliable recall, without much work. Nothing near 100% as I haven't yet put the work into him which needs to be done.

[Staranais]

Having fostered a greyhound and now owning a sighthound mix, I would say that for some dogs, 100% recall is not possible. I understand that there are some greyhounds and sighthounds that have excellent recall under all conditions/distraction, however for my dog it isn't a possibility. Sighthound people talk about "prey drive" - if you haven't seen it, it might be difficult for you to understand. It is like someone flicks a switch, and nothing else in the world exists for the dog apart from the prey... which is usually moving rapidly into the distance. My other dog, a lab mix, has fairly reliable recall, without much work. Nothing near 100% as I haven't yet put the work into him which needs to be done.

High prey drive can give a good recall though, in some dogs. I have a working line malinois - I'd imagine her prey drive is a similar intensity to that of any sighthound - and I use prey drive to reward her recall. The idea is trying to teach her that focusing on me, rather than ignoring me & chasing after random other things, is the best way to satisfy her prey drive.

[Keshwar]

Having fostered a greyhound and now owning a sighthound mix, I would say that for some dogs, 100% recall is not possible. I understand that there are some greyhounds and sighthounds that have excellent recall under all conditions/distraction, however for my dog it isn't a possibility. Sighthound people talk about "prey drive" - if you haven't seen it, it might be difficult for you to understand. It is like someone flicks a switch, and nothing else in the world exists for the dog apart from the prey... which is usually moving rapidly into the distance. My other dog, a lab mix, has fairly reliable recall, without much work. Nothing near 100% as I haven't yet put the work into him which needs to be done.

High prey drive can give a good recall though, in some dogs. I have a working line malinois - I'd imagine her prey drive is a similar intensity to that of any sighthound - and I use prey drive to reward her recall. The idea is trying to teach her that focusing on me, rather than ignoring me & chasing after random other things, is the best way to satisfy her prey drive.

I think you are talking about a different sort/intensity of prey drive.

Sighthounds have been bred to do one thing and one thing only - chase down moving prey. This drive IME overwhelms all other training. This is the reason that you will hear sighthound folk talk about never letting their dogs off lead unless it is in a fully fenced/secure/safe area.

[Staranais]

Having fostered a greyhound and now owning a sighthound mix, I would say that for some dogs, 100% recall is not possible. I understand that there are some greyhounds and sighthounds that have excellent recall under all conditions/distraction, however for my dog it isn't a possibility. Sighthound people talk about "prey drive" - if you haven't seen it, it might be difficult for you to understand. It is like someone flicks a switch, and nothing else in the world exists for the dog apart from the prey... which is usually moving rapidly into the distance. My other dog, a lab mix, has fairly reliable recall, without much work. Nothing near 100% as I haven't yet put the work into him which needs to be done.

High prey drive can give a good recall though, in some dogs. I have a working line malinois - I'd imagine her prey drive is a similar intensity to that of any sighthound - and I use prey drive to reward her recall. The idea is trying to teach her that focusing on me, rather than ignoring me & chasing after random other things, is the best way to satisfy her prey drive.

I think you are talking about a different sort/intensity of prey drive.

Sighthounds have been bred to do one thing and one thing only - chase down moving prey. This drive IME overwhelms all other training. This is the reason that you will hear sighthound folk talk about never letting their dogs off lead unless it is in a fully fenced/secure/safe area.

I've never trained a sighthound before, so I can't talk about sighthounds recalls with any authority. But I can confidently state that having a huge prey drive doesn't necessarily rule out a great recall.

I'd be very suprised if sighthounds had more intense prey drive than a good working line mally. So if sighthounds almost invariably have bad recalls, then it can't be just the huge prey drive that's causing it. Must be something else.

Different "type" of prey drive I'd buy - the idea that the sight dog has less of a natural tendancy to bite tug toys/people/anything that moves, and more of a natural tendancy to want to channel their drive towards small live prey. But I believe that how a dog learns to channel its prey drive can be affected by experience and training also. Don't racing greys chase an artificial lure, not live prey, these days anyway?

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I've never trained a sighthound before, so I can't talk about sighthounds recalls with any authority. But I can confidently state that having a huge prey drive doesn't necessarily rule out a great recall.

I can think of a DOLer who sometimes posts here who has excellent recall on her sighthounds, including in a paddock with a lure coursing machine, which is no mean feat. However, that DOLer is an experienced trainer.

Reliability is a combination of things. I think it is possible to train a reliable recall on a Saluki or an Afghan in the same way that it is possible to finish the London marathon. It can be done, but most people struggle because your technique has to be very good and you have to know the breed well. Let's face it, most people struggle with recall on dogs that aren't as hard wired AND as physically equipped as a sighthound.

This question came up in the Saluki Breed 101 thread so I guess I'll say here what I said there. It can be done, but most people can't do it. So when Sighthound people say "your dog must always be on a leash in public" they are not being defeatist, they are being realistic about the combination of human limitations and breed characteristics. Number one cause of death in Salukis in North America is being hit by cars.

I know you're not suggesting that it's easy, but one thing that bothers me about some of these threads is the risk of very experienced people forgetting what it's like to be your average bog standard dog owner and saying "well it's possible for me". It may be, but advice is always a case of risk assessment. On the flip side I would never say to a sighthound owner "don't bother". I'd say, this is my routine:

- Always reward attention and recalls

- Don't recall for unpleasant tasks like medicating and grooming - go and get the dog

- Use the sighthound love of running to put the "fun" in recalls

- With puppies and adolescents, go and get them on a leash if they don't respond to calls

- Do a lot of recall and release

It falls apart under heavy distraction, I'll be the first to say as much, but they are reliable in the house and yards without prey or other people's dogs around. We use recalls a lot for ensuring polite running in the yard and polite behaviour in the house.

[Staranais]

This question came up in the Saluki Breed 101 thread so I guess I'll say here what I said there. It can be done, but most people can't do it. So when Sighthound people say "your dog must always be on a leash in public" they are not being defeatist, they are being realistic about the combination of human limitations and breed characteristics. Number one cause of death in Salukis in North America is being hit by cars.

Yes, like I said I can't comment on the difficulty or otherwise of teaching recall to sighthounds, since I've never owned one. I believe it's hard, though, since most sighthound owners tell me so.

I just seriously doubt that it's only a prey drive issue. My girl has a high (high high high) prey drive, as do most working line mallies, and also a very good recall - it's getting better all the time, and we're aiming for 100%. So the difference can't just be an intense prey drive. There must be something else going on with the sighthounds that makes them harder to teach recall to? Are they less biddable? Less pack driven? More inclined to look to their handler for prey drive reward? Or is it simply that we tend to imprint shepherd type puppies on toys that we're holding - rather than imprinting them on a lure off in the distance?

[RallyValley]

There were a few whippets at agility nationals that must have pretty awesome recalls since they were off leash doing agility.

[poodlefan]

My understanding is that when a dog is in full prey drive and running, it can't hear you. Its brain shuts down certain functions to focus on sight and movement.

I think the thing with sighthounds is the sheer speed of reaction and engagement. One second your dog is next to you and the next it's 30m from you and going away at 60 kph... By the time you've reacted and called, your dog is a fair distance off.

My guess is the sighthounds with the best recalls have great trainers and potentially lower levels of prey drive.

I've trained Howie to come to voice and a sports whistle. He is rewarded heavily for coming when called. He's pretty reliable but not infalible. If he's chasing, he'll return as soon as the prey is out of sight. But I'd never let him offlead in an area where there's a clear line of sight to a road. An ounce of prevention and all that.

Edited May 4, 2010 by poodlefan

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I just seriously doubt that it's only a prey drive issue. My girl has a high (high high high) prey drive, as do most working line mallies, and also a very good recall - it's getting better all the time, and we're aiming for 100%. So the difference can't just be an intense prey drive. There must be something else going on with the sighthounds that makes them harder to teach recall to? Are they less biddable? Less pack driven? More inclined to look to their handler for prey drive reward? Or is it simply that we tend to imprint shepherd type puppies on toys that we're holding - rather than imprinting them on a lure off in the distance?

The independent personaliy is a very big part of it, which I think is why Afghans and Salukis particularly can be challenging. Sighthounds also vary, and some of the old open field coursing books go into the relative merits of each breed with biddability being a factor. Salukis for example, are considered excellent long range hunters but one author felt their major drawback was getting a reliable recall on them. Should see if I can dig out the book tonight and post that section.

That said, my icon picture was taken in our front paddock and I was playing a recall game with him at the time. Basically he does a huge loop of the paddock, I call him back to me, reward, and release again and he does another huge loop. He cares enough about me and the reward to come back on each loop - plus he knows there's a good chance he'll be released again for more running and it's a huge fun game for him.

[poodlefan]

There were a few whippets at agility nationals that must have pretty awesome recalls since they were off leash doing agility.

Howie does agility off leash.. but he's not doing it around live prey. Most sighthound agiliteers know all about "zoomies".

He's walked off lead every day.. but not around roads. The only good thing about the sighties is that they are like Cheetahs.. they tend to pull up pretty quickly if they've been running at full speed.

Edited May 4, 2010 by poodlefan

[Staranais]

My understanding is that when a dog is in full prey drive and running, it can't hear you. Its brain shuts down certain functions to focus on sight and movement.

But then noone would be able to recall a high preydrive dog off live prey, poodlefan? Or recall a high prey drive police dog/sport dog off a bite it was committed to?

[poodlefan]

My understanding is that when a dog is in full prey drive and running, it can't hear you. Its brain shuts down certain functions to focus on sight and movement.

But then noone would be able to recall a high preydrive dog off live prey, poodlefan? Or recall a high prey drive police dog/sport dog off a bite it was committed to?

It would depend on the extent to which prey drive is engaged I'd imagine. My poodles will chase.. but with nowhere near the level of commitment and intensity of my Whippet. I can recall them. Howie is not as easy and I've worked harder on his recall than the others.

If you think about what a Sighthound is doing closing on a hare or gazelle while running at 60kph on uneven ground, twisting and turning, I'd say its entirely possible that they won't register that you are calling them. I'd say the only way to get them back might be to reduce or turn off the drive.

Can't speak for bitework. However I'd expect that working under the direction of a handler, the dog would be anticipating further commands and perhaps this makes a difference?

Edited May 4, 2010 by poodlefan

[Staranais]

My understanding is that when a dog is in full prey drive and running, it can't hear you. Its brain shuts down certain functions to focus on sight and movement.

But then noone would be able to recall a high preydrive dog off live prey, poodlefan? Or recall a high prey drive police dog/sport dog off a bite it was committed to?

If you think about what a Sighthound is doing closing on a hare or gazelle while running at 60kph on uneven ground, twisting and turning, I'd say its entirely possible that they won't register that you are calling them. I'd say the only way to get them back might be to reduce or turn off the drive.

Can't speak for bitework. However I'd expect that working under the direction of a handler, the dog would be anticipating further commands and perhaps this makes a difference?

I think you're right, but I don't think it's the whole story. Certainly, it's easier to recall a dog who is already working under your direction, since they already have an ear out for your commands. But in the future I hope to be able to recall my girl even after she's already running screaming after live prey.

Of course, I'm happy to devalue the prey for her using aversives, so that my prey reward looks better in comparison. Which is not something you'd want to do with a racing greyhound. So perhaps that's another difference?

[SkySoaringMagpie]

It would depend on the extent to which prey drive is engaged I'd imagine. My poodles will chase.. but with nowhere near the level of commitment and intensity of my Whippet. I can recall them. Howie is not as easy and I've worked harder on his recall than the others.

If you think about what a Sighthound is doing closing on a hare or gazelle while running at 60kph on uneven ground, twisting and turning, I'd say its entirely possible that they won't register that you are calling them. I'd say the only way to get them back might be to reduce or turn off the drive.

Can't speak for bitework. However I'd expect that working under the direction of a handler, the dog would be anticipating further commands and perhaps this makes a difference?

PF makes good points here about the distances/distraction levels involved.

My guess is that a dog that has advanced to reliable bite work would be in the top tiny per cent of dogs of its breed in terms of its trainer's ability and its own suitability for such training. Plenty of GSDs and Mals never make it that far. I know people who course who will pet out sighthounds that have poor recall so I think something similar would go on there. Is the dog at that level because its trainer is awesome, or is it at that level because the dog is naturally highly suitable, or is it a combination of those? I don't think there's a single answer for everydog but IME, there are sighthounds who shut down everything else while coursing prey including injuries that would stop most dogs in their tracks.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Lesley Nelson has put out a DVD on how to teach "really reliable recall"

100%? probably not. I am never 100% certain of anything. Philosophically speaking, you can't be 100% certain you're sitting in front of a computer reading this or that you really have a dog at all.

According to the DVD, it is possible to train a really reliable recall in an Afghan hound but it takes about a year and a half and at least three times a day practice with a really really high value treat/reward. And the less the emergency recall word is used for real not practice, the better it works.

http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB810P

At the moment I've got fairly good recall with my dog. But it's a long way off really reliable.

I can call her off chasing cars, joggers, bikes, small animals, fighting dogs (she's a loud spectator) - most of the time. I can call her away from small children too.

I can't always get her back on lead when I want. But part of the training means you never call the dog and then put it straight on lead - especially one that really likes being off lead.

So I get my dog by doing some fun obedience heel, or sit stay or by going up a set of stairs onto a balcony or narrow area. And I reward going on lead with treats and / or game of tug with the other end of the rope lead.

The best recall signal I have is to call once, then run away. Which is pretty weird looking to some people.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[poodlefan]

Of course, I'm happy to devalue the prey for her using aversives, so that my prey reward looks better in comparison. Which is not something you'd want to do with a racing greyhound. So perhaps that's another difference?

My guess is that how prey drive is harnessed and the routines associated with it would make a difference.

Herding, bitework, coursing.. all involve prey drive. Two involve handling, practice and routines. Herding usually involves watching the handler for cues.

Coursing is just the dog/s and the prey. They make the kill (real or pseudo) alone and without direction.

[Aidan]

My understanding is that when a dog is in full prey drive and running, it can't hear you. Its brain shuts down certain functions to focus on sight and movement.

There are certainly physiological behaviours associated with chasing prey but it's a myth that they "can't" hear you. They just need to be conditioned to respond in that situation. Genetics contributes here, gundogs are at the relatively easy end despite having very high prey drive, sighthounds and terriers are at the more difficult end.

[Staranais]

Of course, I'm happy to devalue the prey for her using aversives, so that my prey reward looks better in comparison. Which is not something you'd want to do with a racing greyhound. So perhaps that's another difference?

My guess is that how prey drive is harnessed and the routines associated with it would make a difference.

Herding, bitework, coursing.. all involve prey drive. Two involve handling, practice and routines. Herding usually involves watching the handler for cues.

Coursing is just the dog/s and the prey. They make the kill (real or pseudo) alone and without direction.

So you think that non-sighthound high-prey-drive dogs (what a mouthful!) are more likely to hear their handler while in high drive, since they're more used to seeing their handler as a "guide" to achieving drive satisfaction, rather than something to be ignored?

Is that training, though, or is it breeding? From what I understand it's very much easier to train a recall in a high prey dog that has never learned that ignoring the handler can give drive satisfaction.

[poodlefan]

So you think that non-sighthound high-prey-drive dogs (what a mouthful!) are more likely to hear their handler while in high drive, since they're more used to seeing their handler as a "guide" to achieving drive satisfaction, rather than something to be ignored?

Is that training, though, or is it breeding? From what I understand it's very much easier to train a recall in a high prey dog that has never learned that ignoring the handler can give drive satisfaction.

I'd think that, despite appearances, the drive may not be as fully engaged as high as it is in sighthounds. Perhaps the drive has been modified to some degree by breeding as it has in herding breeds. After all, a shepherd breed that wants to kill everything small that runs is going to be a liability.

Sighthounds are chasing prey that, in many cases, is as fast and as agile as they are.. not the case with dog/human interactions. The dog isn't working as hard to get to the bite subject?

Are dogs trained in bitework harder to call off a running subject? How far is the distance between release and "capture". How long does it take between release and "capture".

Are dogs easier to call off in some circumstances than others? I'd imagine a struggling subject would be harder to get a dog off than a still one?

I don't know what the answers are but the subject raises interesting questions. I think it may not be coincidence that dogs that were bred to hunt and kill without human guidance have reputations for being more challenging to recall. Terriers and sighthounds are two obvious examples.

Edited May 4, 2010 by poodlefan

[Staranais]

So you think that non-sighthound high-prey-drive dogs (what a mouthful!) are more likely to hear their handler while in high drive, since they're more used to seeing their handler as a "guide" to achieving drive satisfaction, rather than something to be ignored?

Is that training, though, or is it breeding? From what I understand it's very much easier to train a recall in a high prey dog that has never learned that ignoring the handler can give drive satisfaction.

I'd think that, despite appearances, the drive may not be as fully engaged as high as it is in sighthounds. Perhaps the drive has been modified to some degree by breeding as it has in herding breeds. After all, a shepherd breed that wants to kill everything that runs is going to be liability.

Definitely would be a liability - but then again, you've got to teach them what is, and what isn't, appropriate for biting. My little girl didn't want to kill everything when she arrived, but she sure did want to chase and bite everything that moved. Little kids, joggers, bikes, skateboards, cats, rodents, birds, toys, bunnies, cars, possums, and any people that were silly enough to move quickly or lift their arms around her or heaven forbid run away from her... all got her going.

I'm not sure if I'd agree that prey drive isn't as engaged in a good bitework dog as in a good sighthound, but someone that knows far more about bitework than I do would have to comment.

I don't know what the answers are but the subject raises interesting questions. I think it may not be coincidence that dogs that were bred to hunt and kill without human guidance have reputations for being more challenging to recall. Terriers and sighthounds are two obvious examples.

Yes, it is very interesting, and I agree that dogs bred to hunt without human guidance do seem to be harder to train than breds who have traditionally satisfied their prey drive with human assistance.