Chronic Puller! Help!

[Erny]

I don't know much about necks and spines (apart from being a qualified Bowen Therapist in a former life), but what I know from playing in the tight five in rugby is that having your head pulled to the side isn't something I worry about.

I'm not professing to be an expert either, but I can tell you that because of my work where I am predominantly working dogs to my left, it is influencing my skeletal structure and I have needed a bit more chiropractic care than I have in the past. So the head to one side might not cause an obvious neck injury, but constant walking to one way or the other can affect everything else and lead to skeletal imbalance. Maybe I should take up Rugby and cop a few knocks to put my body back where it ought to be! (or maybe you can trip on over and do your Bowen Therapy stuff! )

ETA: I have seen a couple of dogs (small sample size by comparison to the rest of dogs in head collars, I know) who, when walking with their owners (albeit VERY nicely on a loose lead) 'crabbing' (not tracking true from front to back). It was apparent to me visually that the crabbing stemmed from the dog's head placement, which was level but consistently angled in towards the owners. Well, it wasn't actually that the neck was so much turned in - it was (in each case) a little bit, but more that the dog's body was pointed in at a slight angle to the owner's left leg. Consequently the dogs were walking forward at an angle.

Having force applied directly to your neck, like in a high tackle, or down on your head, like in a bad scrum, are the big worries. If this applies to dogs I have no idea. Certainly any dog who is chronically pulling into any sort of neck or head collar is at heightened risk of overuse injury, and thankfully dogs in head collars tend not to pull into them chronically (as they do into flat collars), although they do exist as we know.

It's the "until the dog learns" phase that bothers me, taking into account novice handler at the other end of the leash.

Sorry, couldn't get you the whole paper. My university does not have a veterinary science department so does not subscribe to this journal. I would like to know the sample size used in particular. Corvus might have access to it.

Sample size and also prior experience of dogs to either or both of the collar types compared, as well as prior training experience and temperament type. Even though it is written in the abstract too much is missing from it and I'm finding it difficult to believe that even if a dog is struggling/pawing/scraping at the head collar, that there is no more physiological stress occurrence than if it wasn't. Can't argue it one way or the other unless the full study can be read.

ETA: Don't get me wrong - there's a place for head-collars. But they aren't the be all and end all for every dog. They aren't the "best". The "best" is what suits the dog; the owner; the circumstance and the environment each are in on a day to day basis and what produces the results sought efficiently and with the over all least amount of stress and with the least amount of potential harm.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Erny

[Black Bronson]

Wrong answer Aidan, the poor kid's in hospital, the owner charged and the dog PTS through stupid advice ANY dog, large and powerful especially, that may have the slightest inclination for aggression or unpredictable lunging MUST have a suitable neck collar if it flips it's lid. The ONLY way in that instance to subdue the dog safely is to block the dog's air, choke it out. You can't do that with a harness

I'm not sure why you think that it is acceptable to call my advice "stupid" but I would remind you that this sort of attack is not appropriate here.

A front attaching harness gives the owner leverage so that the dog is not able to overpower the handler. The handler is free to simply walk away from a difficult situation taking the dog with them. This is not true when the dog is wearing a check chain or dominant dog collar and unless the handler is very strong they will not be able to complete the dangerous procedure that you have described.

Given your now evident lack of understanding of the tool being discussed I have to wonder why you believe you are qualified to criticise it? Have you ever seen one being used?

Aidan, people read these forums and your advice was to use a head collar or harness for small females to best control reactive and aggressive dogs. You will find that asking trainers experienced in this field of training that they would also think your advice is stupid too. That's absolute crap that a 45kilo female cannot block a powerful dog on a Dominant Dog Collar.............it's what the collar is designed for, infact a 12 year old child has the strength to do so.

I am more than happy to be corrected and change my view of the head collar and harness application providing the ultimate control of reactive and and aggressive dogs, but the contradiction to this, is that you won't find ANY reputable and experienced trainers who specialise in this field of training to agree with your concept. So, all the accomplished trainers in this field are idiots are they Aidan and you know best..........is that what you are saying???

With respect Adian I don't see your name popping up with any formal training accomplishments at all, especially in the handling of volitle dogs, but there are plenty who have achieved and are very good at it, and none of them use head collars and harnesses to train and control these dog types. I apologise for respecting the opinions of people that have the formal proven competence to train with methods that bring results, but in my way of thinking, it's best to learn from people who can do the job than people who think they can...........that's fair isn't it

Edited June 5, 2010 by Black Bronson

[bedazzledx2]

Disagree.....My Aussie would have shut down and never got beyond Novice had he been trained with the old methods. I know of several other breeds who would never have coped and are doing a great deal of winning. How about Huski? We also have a terrific little Beagle in WA who has lovely attitude, not to mention the Tollers, Kelpies and Poodles.

I guess that I first began learning to train dogs in the 70's and if you didn't do what the trainer told you to do, they would scream and yell and tell you to bugger off and don't come back to training if won't listen and do as you were told Some of those old school trainers were mongrels and stressful to train under, but they were good and always had competition level dogs of their own to demonstrate their skills. We wanted what they knew and would hang on every word they said.........geez, you wouldn't dare argue with the trainer back then

And back in the "good old days" you wouldn't see the range of breeds we do competing in various dog sports. I wonder how many scent hounds those old school trainers managed to train to competition level?

I wouldn't tolerate anyone speaking to me in such a disgusting abusive manner, you'd have to be a real pushover to take that crap

No, we didn't see the range of breeds back then, you are correct, but the same breeds still win, nothing changed there

[Red Fox]

... the more important factor IMO is how quickly the stress is resolved and what the dog gains after the stressful event.

Agree - although all things being equal, if there were another method/tool which the owner could use equally as well and which could produce less stress in that dog and have the dog gain the same, then that's what I'd go for. So the more important factor IMO would be about finding that tool/method.

I think you'd agree with this anyway, Cosmolo. I believe I understand where you were coming from with the above.

I agree with you Erny. As a qualified trainer if you think that a certain method or piece of equipment will work better for a certian type of dog, or certain type of owner then without a doubt that is what you should recommend

I do have an issue however, when someone is told to use a certain tool which may be 'easier' but not necessarily 'better' for that dog/owner combination. Does that make sense?

No, we didn't see the range of breeds back then, you are correct, but the same breeds still win, nothing changed there

Sure, sometimes. My beagle can work better than dogs of some of those breeds, breed alone means nothing unless you use methods that are right for the individual dog.

Yeah but that's only cos you have a super beagle Huski

Hehe, who says you can't train a beagle in drive?

[Erny]

I do have an issue however, when someone is told to use a certain tool which may be 'easier' but not necessarily 'better' for that dog/owner combination. Does that make sense?

Yes - it makes sense, SK. I think we're both on the same page there.

Something might be "easier" for one of the combination (ie handler or dog) but not necessarily the best for both handler AND dog.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Erny

[Aidan3]

How I came to the conclusion that you were discounting a certain group of dogs? Or how I came to the conclusion the a halti is not only stressful for the dog but not the best way of teaching llw?

Okay, well you stated that:

"it does clearly demonstrate that just because a dog paws at his nose and puts his head down and not look at the owner does not indicate that the dog is stressed"

But then went on to say:

"but I would think that if a dog is scratching to the point of mutilation then that particular dog is not a candidate for the head collar"

and

"the results of the study do not apply to the entire population of dogs"

and

"Just because this study says that dogs wearing head collars don't demonstrate physiological signs of stress doesn't mean that there won't be dogs in the entire population of dogs in the world who aren't stressed."

So you are firstly saying that the study clearly demonstrates that the dogs are not stressed, but then contradicting it by saying that if a dog is stressed then they are not a good candidate for the head collar anyway Thats where I got lost anyway...

The dogs in the study showed behaviours that have been interpreted by many as stress, they were measured for physiological signs to see if the interpretations were correct. It turns out that the interpretations were not correct, the dogs were not stressed despite appearances.

That doesn't mean that there won't be dogs who are stressed by head collars. This is not a contradiction, the study measured a sample of dogs, not every dog in the world ever born. There may be some dogs who do find head collars stressful, and if a dog is pawing to the point of self-mutilation then he is probably stressed. Actually I don't care if he's stressed or not, if he self-mutilating while wearing a head collar then that dog should not be wearing a head collar!

That doesn't mean that I have discounted any dogs. It means that dogs who are pawing or appear shut down while wearing head collars probably aren't really stressed, but if it's any worse than this then the dog shouldn't be wearing a head collar.

Sorry but saying that these dogs are not stressed doesn't wash with me.

The only way we can really know is to measure physiological signs. I could cite about a hundred studies which discuss how science has come to this conclusion and how we know that the measures used in the experiment are valid but that's a discussion for another day. If the dog isn't stressed then they probably just aren't happy about not being able to bounce around at the end of the leash on their own terms. Boo hoo for them. Whether the dog will stay this way or whether it's the best tool for the dog is something that would have to be assessed on an individual basis.

Of course we don't need a head collar to teach a dog to walk on a loose leash. Horses for courses. The instructor you saw was an over-zealous cookie pusher from what I can gather, probably not the last you'll meet.

[corvus]

Your wish is my command.

Tests were conducted on 26 random source dogs, 13 males and 13 females, conditioned for health prior to inclusion in this study. All were dogs greater than one year of age and weighed between 12 and 24 kg. Because these were random source dogs of unknown origin, no information was available concerning prior training. The testing was designed to minimize the effect of earlier exposure to training...

...Dogs were paired according to similarities of size and type. Each of the 13 pairs became one replicate in a balanced crossover design comparing the head collar treatment test to the buckle collar control test, using each dog as his own control.

The authors say several times that the head collars are designed to put the most pressure on the back of the neck and pull the head up (back) rather than allowing the dog to push forward into a neck collar. They likened the pressure at the back of the neck to a scruffing action and the pressure around the muzzle when it tightens to a muzzle bite and suggests this may be why the dogs behaved more submissively and subdued without any indications of stress.

[Aidan3]

Maybe I should take up Rugby and cop a few knocks to put my body back where it ought to be! (or maybe you can trip on over and do your Bowen Therapy stuff! )

Trust me, rugby is much more fun

and I'm finding it difficult to believe that even if a dog is struggling/pawing/scraping at the head collar, that there is no more physiological stress occurrence than if it wasn't. Can't argue it one way or the other unless the full study can be read.

As I have indicated, it may not be representative of all dogs but it is certainly compelling and does demonstrate that it is possible to misinterpret behaviour.

ETA: Don't get me wrong - there's a place for head-collars. But they aren't the be all and end all for every dog. They aren't the "best". The "best" is what suits the dog; the owner; the circumstance and the environment each are in on a day to day basis and what produces the results sought efficiently and with the over all least amount of stress and with the least amount of potential harm.

I agree. I rarely recommend them.

[Red Fox]

I do have an issue however, when someone is told to use a certain tool which may be 'easier' but not necessarily 'better' for that dog/owner combination. Does that make sense?

Yes - it makes sense, SK. I think we're both on the same page there.

Something might be "easier" for one of the combination (ie handler or dog) but not necessarily the best for both handler AND dog.

Exactly

The dogs in the study showed behaviours that have been interpreted by many as stress, they were measured for physiological signs to see if the interpretations were correct. It turns out that the interpretations were not correct, the dogs were not stressed despite appearances.

That doesn't mean that there won't be dogs who are stressed by head collars. This is not a contradiction, the study measured a sample of dogs, not every dog in the world ever born. There may be some dogs who do find head collars stressful, and if a dog is pawing to the point of self-mutilation then he is probably stressed. Actually I don't care if he's stressed or not, if he self-mutilating while wearing a head collar then that dog should not be wearing a head collar!

That doesn't mean that I have discounted any dogs. It means that dogs who are pawing or appear shut down while wearing head collars probably aren't really stressed, but if it's any worse than this then the dog shouldn't be wearing a head collar.

Okay, so lets say that they are not stressed. What good is a dog who "appears to have shut down" and how much can you really teach him in that state?

Of course we don't need a head collar to teach a dog to walk on a loose leash. Horses for courses. The instructor you saw was an over-zealous cookie pusher from what I can gather, probably not the last you'll meet.

Finally, I think we agree on something

[Aidan3]

ou will find that asking trainers experienced in this field of training that they would also think your advice is stupid too.

More personal attacks instead of a cogent argument. No doubt there would be some trainers who think the advice (which, for the record, I did not give) is "stupid" and others who would not. What does that prove?

but the contradiction to this, is that you won't find ANY reputable and experienced trainers who specialise in this field of training to agree with your concept.

There have been several reputable trainers who specialise in this field posting in this thread. Are you suggesting that Cosmolo, Erny and K9Pro aren't "reputable"? More personal attacks.

With respect Adian I don't see your name popping up with any formal training accomplishments at all, especially in the handling of volitle dogs,

There was no respect in that. It was yet another personal attack instead of a cogent argument. I'm not sure what you consider to be a formal training accomplishment, but no doubt it's a very narrow definition that suits your own particular world view.

[Erny]

As I have indicated, it may not be representative of all dogs but it is certainly compelling and does demonstrate that it is possible to misinterpret behaviour.

I'm a bit more cynical than that - I don't have faith in what the abstract tells us. That's why I'd like to read the full study.

I've got pictures of dogs wearing head collars - bucking; rearing; scraping; pawing (and the lead isn't attached to the head collar yet). Even now, re-looking at them - seeing the dogs' eyes; body postures - I cannot accept those dogs are not stressing. I'm afraid I can't put the pictures up here as much as I'd like to so that everyone could see, but I do not have the owner's permission to do so.

Not arguing with you on that score so much, I am simply being a Doubting Thomas - only for the fact that the abstract conclusion might well be right in direct correlation to the circumstances of the study, but how would we know that unless the study could be read as a whole?

I agree. I rarely recommend them.

I actually find many people would prefer not to use them. In part because the desensitisation/introduction process is too much mucking around for their liking and also because they don't like to see their dogs rolling around and being so distracted by the mere wearing of them.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Erny

[Aidan3]

Okay, so lets say that they are not stressed. What good is a dog who "appears to have shut down" and how much can you really teach him in that state?

Provided the owner doesn't pander to this (i.e worry about it, remove the head collar, let the dog go back to pulling on a flat collar) then it usually passes soon enough. Personally, of all the dogs I have ever introduced to a head collar, none of them have ever done this. Of dogs I have worked with where the owner has made the decision (on their own) to get a head collar and then turned up at class with it on without introducing it as I would have, the dogs work just fine and get over the loss of freedom to pull very quickly.

Of course we don't need a head collar to teach a dog to walk on a loose leash. Horses for courses. The instructor you saw was an over-zealous cookie pusher from what I can gather, probably not the last you'll meet.

Finally, I think we agree on something

I'm not sure if we disagreed on anything, you just weren't sure what I was saying Maybe you associated me with that instructor on some level? I don't know!

[corvus]

During the obedience portion of the testing, the subjects looked at the handler significantly more while wearing the neck collar and held their ears p - 0.01 and heads p - 0.003 in a down or lowered position significantly more while wearing the head collar. The subjects also held their body in a crouched position significantly more p - 0.007 while wearing the head collar during the obedience exercises. There was no difference in the tail position between collars.

While wearing the neck collar, the subjects were significantly more unruly based on the posture and position ranking, and had to be placed into position more often, and pulled ahead of the handler. While wearing the head collar, the subjects fought the leash and pawed at their noses significantly more than while wearing the neck collar. There was no significant difference between the collars for the measures of vocalizations, dragging behind the handler and corrections made by the handler Table 2 .

[Red Fox]

I actually find many people would prefer not to use them. In part because the desensitisation/introduction process is too much mucking around for their liking and also because they don't like to see their dogs rolling around and being so distracted by the mere wearing of them.

That's a really good point Erny. Assuming that the dog is NOT stressed by this the owner certainly would be. And wouldn't the dog pick up on this?

I'm presuming that the study that Aidan (and Corvus) refered to would have been conducted by people who did not have an emotion attachment to the dogs?? Would this not affect the outcome??

[Erny]

Personally, of all the dogs I have ever introduced to a head collar, none of them have ever done this.

I agree - it doesn't occur very often. I've seen it (first hand) once. And I must say that when you see it, you don't forget it in a hurry. Being anthropomorphic just so I can create an image in the minds of those reading, it struck me that it would be as though in such a dark place of despair one might almost prefer not to be alive. It is vastly different to a dog who just protests to it by laying down and refusing to budge. Those dogs still have expression in their eyes and they are still 'of this world'.

[Red Fox]

Okay, so lets say that they are not stressed. What good is a dog who "appears to have shut down" and how much can you really teach him in that state?

Provided the owner doesn't pander to this (i.e worry about it, remove the head collar, let the dog go back to pulling on a flat collar) then it usually passes soon enough. Personally, of all the dogs I have ever introduced to a head collar, none of them have ever done this. Of dogs I have worked with where the owner has made the decision (on their own) to get a head collar and then turned up at class with it on without introducing it as I would have, the dogs work just fine and get over the loss of freedom to pull very quickly.

But this is extremely hard to do when you have an emotional attachment to the dog.

I'm not sure if we disagreed on anything, you just weren't sure what I was saying Maybe you associated me with that instructor on some level? I don't know!

Nah, not quite. For starters I am presuming you are a man ...

Where I think we disagree is that (correct me if I'm wrong) you think that in some cases that a head collar is a viable option. I do not. The front connecting harness on the other hand I do not have enough first hand knowledge of to base my oppinion. However, you did state earlier on (in response to BB's hyperthetical) that if a dog went over threshold in a no pull harness that the owner could "simply walk away". This I'm not so convinced about. How to you snap a dog out of fight drive in a harness? (or any drive really). I also tend to agree with BB that you dont need strength to use a DD collar and "choke the dog out" - but you do need knowledge of how to do it correctly. But again, that is getting off the topic of llw..

[Red Fox]

ou will find that asking trainers experienced in this field of training that they would also think your advice is stupid too.

More personal attacks instead of a cogent argument. No doubt there would be some trainers who think the advice (which, for the record, I did not give) is "stupid" and others who would not. What does that prove?

but the contradiction to this, is that you won't find ANY reputable and experienced trainers who specialise in this field of training to agree with your concept.

There have been several reputable trainers who specialise in this field posting in this thread. Are you suggesting that Cosmolo, Erny and K9Pro aren't "reputable"? More personal attacks.

Aidan, I dont think that's what BB was trying to suggest at all. How many times has it been said, that the only thing two trainers will agree on is that the third is wrong?

[Aidan3]

Okay, so lets say that they are not stressed. What good is a dog who "appears to have shut down" and how much can you really teach him in that state?

Provided the owner doesn't pander to this (i.e worry about it, remove the head collar, let the dog go back to pulling on a flat collar) then it usually passes soon enough. Personally, of all the dogs I have ever introduced to a head collar, none of them have ever done this. Of dogs I have worked with where the owner has made the decision (on their own) to get a head collar and then turned up at class with it on without introducing it as I would have, the dogs work just fine and get over the loss of freedom to pull very quickly.

But this is extremely hard to do when you have an emotional attachment to the dog.

Yup, horses for courses. Some people see the dog having a minor hissy fit because they can't get their way any more, others see the dog as shut down. You can imagine what some people might think when their dog squeals the first time it lunges on a prong collar. We're all different, that's why I like to deal with data rather than opinions. I personally don't consider it reasonable to cut off a dog's air supply when I know that there are effective alternatives but I do not judge you personally for reagarding this as a reasonable option. If you get a chance Google "Milgram Experiment" and see how readily we can be conditioned to accept some things as normal where otherwise we would not (for e.g., would you let someone do this to your child, even if it meant your child would learn not to do something very harmful to himself or others?)

Where I think we disagree is that (correct me if I'm wrong) you think that in some cases that a head collar is a viable option. I do not. The front connecting harness on the other hand I do not have enough first hand knowledge of to base my oppinion. However, you did state earlier on (in response to BB's hyperthetical) that if a dog went over threshold in a no pull harness that the owner could "simply walk away". This I'm not so convinced about. How to you snap a dog out of fight drive in a harness? (or any drive really).

The front attaching harness gives you leverage. The dog cannot pull you towards whatever it wants to, and if he does become aggressive you can simply walk away. Distance puts them out of drive pretty quickly. I don't care if they want to have a hissy fit on the way. I have used them on some very large dogs with some very small handlers, and Cosmolo and K9Pro seem to have had similar results. Ask Steve if you want a second opinion. It is very difficult for a dog to pull forwards in a front attaching harness.

[Black Bronson]

As a 60kg female who did have a very unfortunate incident with a dog in drive trying to kill one of mine- trying to block the dogs air supply did absolutely nothing anyway. When you're in that situation, the last thing i'd be thinking about is i wish i had XYZ piece of equipment- i'd be extracting myself from the situation and then working out how to avoid getting into such a dangerous position again.

BB- i think you should use a front connecting harness before you judge them.

Your idea of a reactive dog is possibly different to mine Cosmolo. Have you actually worked with dogs in fighting drive???. Are you experienced in bite work training with security dogs or any of that type of training. Harnesses are used for the complete opposite in agitation training when training the dog to bite, not to stop it and release, the harness is useless, only the collar air block will release the dog if things get out of sequence. An air block works on the street or park in the same fashion, the "emergency brake" if things get out of shape with a strong reactive dog.

About a year ago, there was a girl about 10 or 11 years old walking a young Kelpie X dog on a slip leash that saw a dog across the main road and starting to pull the little girl into the traffic. She was screaming for her mother who was pushing a pram about 50 metres back down the path and I could see what was going on I put my dog in a drop/stay and ran to the little girl and grabbed the leash as the dog reached the kerb, and lifted the leash straight up, air blocked and the dog stopped instantly. The dog preferred to breath and chasing the dog across the road was of no further interest at that point.

What I am saying is simply this. If it hits the fan somewhere, which can happen with a dog that has some power over the handler, you have to able to stop it..........we have an obligation to stop it when taking a dog into a public place. Head collars and harnesses drastically limit the ability to do so over a neck collar with a reactive powerful dog.

[Cosmolo]

Black bronson, are you for real??? I guess i must be weaker than a 12 year old child because i could not do enough, with a correction collar (high on the dogs neck, just behind the ears) to get her off my dog. I physically could not cut off the dogs air supply so it would have made no difference whether the dog had a chain or any other kind of collar on. (NB- this was not 'training' of course and not something i would EVER recommend- this was trying to save the life of my dog)

And i agree with Aidan so i guess that means i am not reputable or experienced

Secret Kei- its not about snapping the dog out of anything in that situation- the dog is too far gone. A front connecting harness gives you the leverage to be able to walk away and take the dog with you- not 'snap the dog out of it'

ETA- in answer to your question BB- yes.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Cosmolo