Chronic Puller! Help!

[persephone]

lanabanana...you said

well maybe he does have some lead aggression - I am not really sure. He barks when he sees other dogs sounding all high pitched and excited and if it goes on too long he gets really wound up...

and I have bolded the important bit!!

Until you are sure- you can not apply a technique, or use a particular tool- as you do not know exactly what it is you are trying to remedy .

Is your dog pulling thru excitement only? Is it because of anxiety? is it because of the wanting to get to other dogs? etc. etc.

Will being 'enclosed' in a harness perhaps exacerbate stress around dogs?

k9 pro said

Lanabanana, I would not be trying to solve this problem by reading this or any other thread on here or reading a book either, I would be having a reputable behaviour specialist assess your dog and design a solution to the problem, including the leash pulling.

No tool will fix this for you.

For behaviour problems, you dont get endless chances at solving them, each failed attempt creates further resistance and a book will not diagnose what is actually happening with your dog.

You cannot train a loose leash walk to a dog and then go about correcting the behavioural problem that may be driving the leash pulling, it doesnt work like that.

You can "experiment" with clicker training, or read a book and give this a "try" yourself, or you can get some professional help and it will get better.

and I agree.

Edited June 5, 2010 by persephone

[Erny]

And you don't think people get dependent on their correction collars and prongs as well?

In my experience, I find there are less people who become subconsciously dependant upon correction collars (especially PPCollars) than they do head collars. I am only presuming this might be because they are more aware of the correction collars - maybe because of how they look (high example being the PPCollar) and that they are concerned about their dogs getting a correction. With the head collars, I have seen many more people apply corrections without a great deal of thought nor concern (other than, perhaps, that their dog isn't 'listening').

That's just my observation and assumption though. I don't rush up to every person I see round and about and ask them what they think they're doing (although there are times I am tempted, LOL).

I don't see that many people using harnesses (other than standard car harness - and then wondering why their dog pulls), so I can't comment from observation on those, but I could imagine it being similar.

[Erny]

He can be his own number one (and only) fan :D

BB has his points to make. Some of them I think have been misunderstood. Some I agree with. Some I don't. But then I view many posts from different people in the same way. Everyone's entitled and I think the above is a bit nasty and that people are tending to gang and jump a bit too much and easily.

[persephone]

He can be his own number one (and only) fan :D

BB has his points to make. Some of them I think have been misunderstood. Some I agree with. Some I don't. But then I view many posts from different people in the same way. Everyone's entitled and I think the above is a bit nasty and that people are tending to gang and jump a bit too much and easily.

X2

[Staranais]

Hi folks, just want to make a point about the study posted earlier. I haven't read every single post, so someone may already have bought this up.

But "stress" in science isn't exactly the same thing that you or I might mean when we say "stress". When scientists talk about stress, they're generally referring to a hormonal & physiological event, not an emotional one.

So a paper saying that a dog isn't "stressed" doesn't mean that the dog isn't suffering any negative emotion associated with wearing either type of collar. In this case it just means that the dog's plasma cortisol (stress hormone), and their heart rate, respiratory rate, pupil size & blood pressure (signs of adrenaline release), are similar for both collar types. The dog could feeling be happy and unstressed, or depressed and unstressed. The paper can't comment on that. It's just saying the dog is (or isn't) stressed.

Case in point, I sat through a series of physiology lectures in 2nd year in which our lecturer argued that battery chickens weren't any more stressed than uncaged chickens, since their plasma cortisol levels weren't any higher. According to his definition, he was completely correct. But I still am not personally convinced that the battery chickens were as happy as the free range ones, as he also tried to suggest. Cortisol and adrenaline don't measure "happy".

From the full text of the paper, I quote: "The postures of the dogs differed markedly with the type of collar. When wearing the head collar the dogs’ heads and ears were lowered—signs of subordination or fear in dogs (Newton and Lucas, 1982). Overall, the dogs were more unruly and disobedient when wearing the nylon neck collar and had to be repeatedly repositioned for physiological measurements. While wearing the head collar, the dogs behaved in a more obedient and subordinate manner, but fought the leash and pawed at their noses."

This head collar effect might be a good, or a bad, effect depending on what type of training you're doing with the dog - I'm not judging, and I daresay the desirability of the effect would vary from dog to dog anyway. I'm just pointing out that the paper says a behavioural effect from merely wearing a headcollar does seem to exist.

Apologies if anyone replies to this & I don't check back for a while - in the middle of exams so shouldn't really be here now at all. :D

Edited June 6, 2010 by Staranais

[Red Fox]

He can be his own number one (and only) fan :D

BB has his points to make. Some of them I think have been misunderstood. Some I agree with. Some I don't. But then I view many posts from different people in the same way. Everyone's entitled and I think the above is a bit nasty and that people are tending to gang and jump a bit too much and easily.

X2

x3

There is a lot that can be gained from listening, whether you agree or not

[Cosmolo]

Yes but those points can be made without declaring anyone who differs irresponsible, dangerous, unprofessional etc etc. You can have a different opinion without someone else slamming you personally to make theirs.

[Erny]

For behaviour problems, you dont get endless chances at solving them, each failed attempt creates further resistance and a book will not diagnose what is actually happening with your dog.

I so agree with this. There are so many people out there who, for whatever the reason (saving money by DIY attempts; or other reasons, perhaps) experiment through the range of available training tools. One doesn't work so they try the next and the next and the next. When frustration kicks in and the range of training tool options begin to diminish, they call in a trainer with the expectations and high hopes the trainer will have the dog responding to the (whatever) training tool that's been tried before.

Often it is a matter of the training tool not having been used correctly and we can still achieve some really good results when it is. But also, often, the dog has been desensitised and learnt to resist, which dulls their responses beyond what they ordinarily should be. The dulled responses and resistance isn't the fault of the trainer and the mediocre results early in the piece can sometimes be somewhat disappointing. That's because we not only have to teach the dog new behaviours, but we have so much undoing of learnt behaviour to do and it's the latter that slows down progress.

The same applies with training methods which aren't administered properly and/or consistently.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Erny

[Erny]

Yes but those points can be made without declaring anyone who differs irresponsible, dangerous, unprofessional etc etc. You can have a different opinion without someone else slamming you personally to make theirs.

BB's response where it leant towards personal attack was not warranted, I agree, and it's not the way to converse. But it seemed to me that Aidan had that well enough in hand and others simply ganging up and being irrelevantly nasty isn't the way to deal with it, nor was needed for the sake of the thread conversation. I also think that BB's messages even before that were very quickly and totally discounted by some who were becoming very fast on the reactive rebound.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Erny

[Aidan3]

I also think that BB's messages even before that were very quickly and totally discounted by some who were becoming very fast on the reactive rebound.

I couldn't agree with that at all. I think BB's point was well taken prior to that and I don't recall anyone disagreeing with his point about the need for training in order to truly rehabilitate a chronic leash puller.

[Erny]

I hate the way that every single time on this list that the question comes up about a dog pulling on lead you can bet that someone will suggest a prong collar. Grrrr!!!!! Apart from the fact that they are illegal in this state and pretty much only available on the internet....why don't people suggest teaching the poor dog rather than correcting?

PPCollars (aka "pinch" or "prong" collars) are actually very fine training tools/aids.

Can you point me to where the use of a PPCollar is illegal in WA?

My understanding is that the only place it is banned (pretty much in the World) is here, in Victoria.

I acknowledge that there might be some Club/Association policies that won't allow their use on their grounds, but that doesn't make the collar illegal.

In the past I have seen and accomplished some very fine work with some very fine and astounding results with the use of the PPCollar and have regarded its use in many cases to have been more humane than the use of the other of the tools that people might have opted for beforehand.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Erny

[Erny]

I also think that BB's messages even before that were very quickly and totally discounted by some who were becoming very fast on the reactive rebound.

I couldn't agree with that at all. I think BB's point was well taken prior to that and I don't recall anyone disagreeing with his point about the need for training in order to truly rehabilitate a chronic leash puller.

Fair enough, if you see it that way Aidan. I don't though - I think some of what he was trying to make a point of was fairly quickly dismissed/ignored. And if anyone has the right of response (ie :D) to BB, I think you have (and did). But others rounding in and/or talking about him making his own fan club of which he'll be the only fan is not only unproductive but unnecessary.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Erny

[sas]

He can be his own number one (and only) fan :D

BB has his points to make. Some of them I think have been misunderstood. Some I agree with. Some I don't. But then I view many posts from different people in the same way. Everyone's entitled and I think the above is a bit nasty and that people are tending to gang and jump a bit too much and easily.

Yes, he has many points to make, points don't equal correct, especially in another thread where he's telling someone with a fear aggressive dog not to worry about seeing a Behaviourist.

Edited June 6, 2010 by sas

[corvus]

So a paper saying that a dog isn't "stressed" doesn't mean that the dog isn't suffering any negative emotion associated with wearing either type of collar. In this case it just means that the dog's plasma cortisol (stress hormone), and their heart rate, respiratory rate, pupil size & blood pressure (signs of adrenaline release), are similar for both collar types. The dog could feeling be happy and unstressed, or depressed and unstressed. The paper can't comment on that. It's just saying the dog is (or isn't) stressed.

To supplement that further, it appears from the literature on measuring positive and negative emotional state in animals that it can be quite a transcient thing. One has to ask at what point negative emotional state should be considered a welfare issue. As someone who has had to recently wrap my empathetic mind around the fact that animals can get used to and be comfortable with a lot of things I think should make them unhappy, I have become cautious about drawing conclusions. I think that we should use these things as a guide rather than a definitive answer.

[Erny]

Thanks for the input, Staranais. I'm glad to read that we in fact should not dismiss the fact that behavioural responses and our interpretations of them are potentially as misunderstood as the presentation of that report might have us believe. I rely a lot on behaviour responses and body language and always will, although not to the exclusion of other subtleties as well.

Apologies if anyone replies to this & I don't check back for a while - in the middle of exams so shouldn't really be here now at all.

Oh hey!! It's that time of the year again for you! Good luck and happy studying, Star :D.

[Erny]

Yes, he has many points to make, points don't equal correct, especially in another thread where he's telling someone with a fear aggressive dog not to worry about seeing a Behaviourist.

I think you'll find that what he is suggesting in that thread is to consult with a qualified trainer (and I think he means trainer/behaviourist) first, before that OP runs the gauntlet with a Vet/Behaviourist and the drug trip.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Erny

[lanabanana]

The pulling is excited....we generally walk him at night no so not many other dogs around to be honest so the pulling has nothing to do with other dogs...

I have probably not stated some of the information very well by talking about pulling and then bringing in the fact he will go nuts when he sees another dog. But we have worked with blockign his view of the other dog while in a sit and keeping his attention on me. This has had some success and he will sit there and ignore th eother dog but I have to be real alert and get him into position BEFORE he notices the other dog, so if I miss th eother dog and he sees it first, there is no chance of getting it working. I am pretty sure he wants to play but he does get himself quite wound up at times (other times he'll bark a few times and that's the end of it) that I worry it could turn into aggression if I allow it to escalate.

Anyway, we bought a front attaching harness today and I gave it a quick try by walking him out in the front yard. Normally he is great out the door and waits for me to go down the steps, which he did as usual, but once we are on the path he usually drags me to the end of the drive way. Well he went to pull and the harness "tightened" (not sure if that is an accurate description) across his chest and he went a bit askew and he immediately fell back into a heel. We did a couple of laps round the front yard and he didn't pull once whereas normally he would be at the end of the lead the whole time.

I didn't take him out on the street yet so I will see how that goes. But I think he has already associated the harness with "walkies" because I picked it up to put it in his cupboard a few minutes ago and he immediately jumped up and ran over with his walking face on LOL.

In regards to getting a trainer in, it has nothing to do with the money. I will spend whatever it takes but I would like to try and work it out with my boy myself first. He is the first dog I have had I have not been able to get walking nicely on lead so if I can I want to work out what works for us without having someone else show me. I can't learn and perfect better techniques if I have to get someone round to show me each time I have a dog something doesn't work for - I realise that a harness is not necessarily a better technique but at this stage, I need to be able to walk him without it being like torture. This may not be a good idea according to some of the posts here, and I accept those opinions and have noted them so will be on th elookout for any adverse affects what I am doign may be having.

[kamuzz]

And I'm a bit puzzled about Steve's (K9 pro) answer about no tool is going to help. Cos tools - that I don't have and aren't that thrilled about using - along with technique is what he recommended me.

MRB, been back through Steve's post looking for where he said this about a tool.

the closest I can find is this:

No tool will fix this for you.

Is this what you meant? There is a big difference between fix and help IMHO. Or were you looking at another piece of his post that I've missed?

[persephone]

I'm glad the new harness seems to be helping! :rolleyes:

I can't learn and perfect better techniques if I have to get someone round to show me each time I have a dog something doesn't work for

Hmm...

so - when you learnt to drive a car in the city- did you teach yourself ? You probably had someone along who was experienced in how some drivers behave- how the car responds to certain things- and how to judge distance/speed etc.?

Do they still come with you? No, of course not, because once they explained it to you, and you practised it , you were skilled and confident and it became easy.

using a trainer is very much the same....and it may well save you a LOT of extra work

[lanabanana]

I'm glad the new harness seems to be helping! :rolleyes:

I can't learn and perfect better techniques if I have to get someone round to show me each time I have a dog something doesn't work for

Hmm...

so - when you learnt to drive a car in the city- did you teach yourself ? You probably had someone along who was experienced in how some drivers behave- how the car responds to certain things- and how to judge distance/speed etc.?

Do they still come with you? No, of course not, because once they explained it to you, and you practised it , you were skilled and confident and it became easy.

using a trainer is very much the same....and it may well save you a LOT of extra work

I am a self taught driver LOL! But I get what you are trying to say and point is taken and noted.

In regards to driving, I was technically never taught to drive. When I was a kid, I used to sit in the middle of the back seat and lean forward so I could watch everything my mum/dad was doing in the car. By the time I got to about 11 or 12, I had decided that from observation, I had learnt enough to attempt to drive my mums car whilst she wasn't home. Drive it I did, and crash it I also did LMAO (which she still doesn't know about - damage was minimal enough to be overlooked). But I tried a few more times learning with each attempt. By the time I had my first lesson with my step dad, I was already a capable driver and he only took me on one lesson before allowing me to drive by myself. Only thing he really taught me was how to roll a smoke and drive at the same time LMFAO. Ahhh good times!