Chronic Puller! Help!

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Good point SA, although our tests are showing the FA harness can reduce pulling, I cannot see us ever prescribing it as a training tool.

[Staranais]

Anything you use is salient (and I would include even martingale collars in this).

I don't know though Aidan, I think some things are MORE salient to the dog. As in, I think some collars/tools are more obvious to the dog, so are more likely to be associated with the new "rules" for walking.

Just like a clicker (going really off topic here). I think a lot of trainers I've met have had success with a clicker since they've practically taught their dog to ignore their normal voice by blabbing to the dog the entire time. When they introduce the clicker, the dog pays attention to the marker & easily associates it with a command, since it's a distinct, new noise. The click noise is very obvious to the dog, just like head collar is, since it's different to what the dog has experienced before (although with the clicker, it's a good effect since you want the dog to associate the clicker with something. With the head collar, it's a bad effect since you don't want the dog to associate the head collar with something).

Not sure if any of that made sense to anyone except me. And the OP is using a harness anyway, so sorry for going off topic & talking about head collars.

[corvus]

Habits in themselves are reinforcing IMO. Habits are safe and comfortable/rewarding, or they would never have become habits. If you take away the reward that encouraged the habit you still haven't taken away the feeling of safety of the behaviour. In a sense the habitual behaviour could act as a setting effect, or establishing operation.

[Aidan]

Anything you use is salient (and I would include even martingale collars in this).

I don't know though Aidan, I think some things are MORE salient to the dog. As in, I think some collars/tools are more obvious to the dog, so are more likely to be associated with the new "rules" for walking.

Some tools are more effective at stopping pulling so they write the new rules for walking - and become associated with them. Let's say I decide that I'm going to teach a dog to walk nicely on a flat collar and I'm going to use a flat collar and 4' leash only. No treats, no voice, no collar pops, no nothing. All I'm going to do is stop or possibly back up every time the dog forges, consistently, so that pulling never, ever works for the dog. In this case the tool is doing nothing much in particular, it's the "big tool" at the other end (me!) who is "effective". I'm writing the rules, so to speak.

Every time I do this I put a 3/4" collar on the dog, who normally wears a 5/8" collar. When he's wearing his 5/8" collar he can pull as much as he likes. When he's wearing his 3/4" collar he may never pull and get anywhere. We will pretty soon get stimulus discrimination for the 3/4" collar, it will become salient. It's less salient than a head halter, but it doesn't matter. That 1/8" inch difference is salient enough to cause pulling vs no-pulling stimulus conditions.

Where your point becomes important is in terms of stimulus generalisation. If we were to apply exactly the same rules that we use while wearing a 3/4" collar to the 5/8" collar and as a comparison, to a body harness, we would expect to see generalisation to the 5/8" collar occur faster than we would to the body harness. So in this sense you are right, the head halter or harness will generalise less readily. But we're not really talking an appreciable difference here so long as the owner doesn't encourage stimulus discrimination by changing the rules between stimulus conditions (e.g continues to let dog pull on flat collar every now and then).

I hope that makes sense because I used all the big words that I know

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: This is a little different from the OPs situation and most peoples situation of a leash pulling dog. If the dog knows how to pull on the leash the rules have been written previously.

To rewrite the rules you may need to devalue the pulling by coupling removing the reinforcement for pulling and coupling that with a negative stimulus for pulling, in which I agree with SA that I dont think Head collars are good for this.

[corvus]

If we were to apply exactly the same rules that we use while wearing a 3/4" collar to the 5/8" collar and as a comparison, to a body harness, we would expect to see generalisation to the 5/8" collar occur faster than we would to the body harness.

What if you put the 5/8" collar on the dog at the same time as the body harness, but attached the leash to the harness? Or the 3/4" collar for that matter, presuming they both fit on at the same time. If the dog had "back-chained" and reaslied that getting the 5/8" collar put on led to those rules, could he generalise just from that action?

[Aidan]

To rewrite the rules you may need to devalue the pulling by coupling removing the reinforcement for pulling and coupling that with a negative stimulus for pulling, in which I agree with SA that I dont think Head collars are good for this.

Head collars are a very poor aversive stimulus for training purposes. As a training tool (for LLW) their function is to remove the reinforcement for pulling and to elicit loose leash walking, thus giving you something to positively reinforce.

[lanabanana]

I very badly want to understand what is writted in all these posts but it just isnt happening LOL

[RubyStar]

I very badly want to understand what is writted in all these posts but it just isnt happening LOL

I haven't read through the posts, but I'm guessing that it didn't get to 20 pages purely on offering advice! There has to be some sort of training debate going on here

[Erny]

To rewrite the rules you may need to devalue the pulling by coupling removing the reinforcement for pulling and coupling that with a negative stimulus for pulling, in which I agree with SA that I dont think Head collars are good for this.

Head collars are a very poor aversive stimulus for training purposes. As a training tool (for LLW) their function is to remove the reinforcement for pulling and to elicit loose leash walking, thus giving you something to positively reinforce.

As is the case for any training tool and for that matter, where our coupling methods/techniques are directed.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Erny

[Staranais]

Anything you use is salient (and I would include even martingale collars in this).

I don't know though Aidan, I think some things are MORE salient to the dog. As in, I think some collars/tools are more obvious to the dog, so are more likely to be associated with the new "rules" for walking.

Some tools are more effective at stopping pulling so they write the new rules for walking - and become associated with them.

Yes, it makes sense to me that a more effective tool for discouraging pulling will become associated with "not pulling" faster than a tool which doesn't do much. I think most trainers & owners would prefer to use a tool and a method that worked quickly, so we do need to be careful that the dog doesn't think the new rules apply only when the new tool is used.

I still do think that a dog will associate a more obvious/novel tool with a new sensation faster than a less noticeable/less novel tool. I have no long words to back that up, just my observations. Hey, I only know big medical words. I get confused by big training words!

I guess it's like using an e-collar, and not letting your dog get collar smart. I'd rather have a dog that thought her own behaviour was the only factor causing (or magically turning off) the collar stim. Not a dog that associates the stim with the collar on her neck! But to make sure that occurs, you need to be a little bit careful about how you introduce the collar to the dog, since I think it's rather easy for them to associate a "new" collar with a "new" sensation.

[Aidan]

If we were to apply exactly the same rules that we use while wearing a 3/4" collar to the 5/8" collar and as a comparison, to a body harness, we would expect to see generalisation to the 5/8" collar occur faster than we would to the body harness.

What if you put the 5/8" collar on the dog at the same time as the body harness, but attached the leash to the harness? Or the 3/4" collar for that matter, presuming they both fit on at the same time. If the dog had "back-chained" and reaslied that getting the 5/8" collar put on led to those rules, could he generalise just from that action?

Not via back-chaining, but yes it would aid in generalisation. Hence my suggestion to use a double-ended leash when using a harness, halter or even prong. That way you subtract stimulus conditions until you are left with a common denominator.

[Aidan]

I very badly want to understand what is writted in all these posts but it just isnt happening LOL

Your thread has been HIJACKED!!! We're not bringing this plane down until you deposit $10M into my account in the Caymans!

[corvus]

I think most trainers & owners would prefer to use a tool and a method that worked quickly, so we do need to be careful that the dog doesn't think the new rules apply only when the new tool is used.

Well... I don't disagree, but a lot of people never stop using a tool and I don't see why they should, particularly. I mean, a leash and flat collar are tools. My mother walks two of her three dogs on head collars. At one point she tried the older one without the head collar and she started pulling again in a couple of days, unsurprisingly. She is quite happy to just keep them on the head collars indefinitely. They are habituated to them and don't try to paw them off. In fact, they associate them with walkies and will happily shove their heads into them impatiently if you pick them up. So from her perspective, there's no reason to wean them off. They are just pet dogs and are not ever going to be in competition. The tools are not impacting at all on the health or welfare of the dogs and enable pleasant, loose leash walking. I would be reticent to resort to a similar tool in the first place and would definitely aim to wean them off, but that's me and my priorities.

[Staranais]

I think most trainers & owners would prefer to use a tool and a method that worked quickly, so we do need to be careful that the dog doesn't think the new rules apply only when the new tool is used.

Well... I don't disagree, but a lot of people never stop using a tool and I don't see why they should, particularly. I mean, a leash and flat collar are tools. My mother walks two of her three dogs on head collars. At one point she tried the older one without the head collar and she started pulling again in a couple of days, unsurprisingly. She is quite happy to just keep them on the head collars indefinitely. They are habituated to them and don't try to paw them off. In fact, they associate them with walkies and will happily shove their heads into them impatiently if you pick them up. So from her perspective, there's no reason to wean them off. They are just pet dogs and are not ever going to be in competition. The tools are not impacting at all on the health or welfare of the dogs and enable pleasant, loose leash walking. I would be reticent to resort to a similar tool in the first place and would definitely aim to wean them off, but that's me and my priorities.

I don't know, don't you think everyone would prefer to have a dog that was reliable off leash? I've always assumed everyone would like that, it's just that they don't know how to do it, or aren't willing to put in the time.

Maybe I'm projecting. I just like having a naked & off leash dog whenever I can, but perhaps that's just me!

[corvus]

But off leash reliability is something different again. You can have a dog that is perfectly reliable off leash but still pulls on leash.

[Staranais]

But off leash reliability is something different again. You can have a dog that is perfectly reliable off leash but still pulls on leash.

I don't think it is? To me, good off leash reliability is pretty much the ultimate outcome of not relying on any tool.

I mean, if my girl walks nicely at my side off leash on request, then it's going to be a pretty easy step to keep her doing it when I put on the leash, no matter what tool she's wearing?

I'm confused, now.

[Aidan]

I still do think that a dog will associate a more obvious/novel tool with a new sensation faster than a less noticeable/less novel tool.

They do, but keep in mind that discrimination experiments have demonstrated that dogs can perceive a difference of something like 3nm wavelength in light. They are remarkably moldable to whatever level of discrimination or generalisation you condition them to - so long as it's appropriate to their species evolved tendencies (known as "preparedness").

[Aidan]

But off leash reliability is something different again. You can have a dog that is perfectly reliable off leash but still pulls on leash.

I don't think it is? To me, good off leash reliability is pretty much the ultimate outcome of not relying on any tool.

I mean, if my girl walks nicely at my side off leash on request, then it's going to be a pretty easy step to keep her doing it when I put on the leash, no matter what tool she's wearing?

I'm confused, now.

My old boy wore a leash about once a month until recently when I hired a dog walker to come once a week. He is brilliant off-leash, walks quite well on a loose leash for me, but pulls like a freight train for his walker. I got her a front-attaching harness, problem solved.

[corvus]

Ignore what I said about collars and leashes being a tool for a moment.

My point was why should someone wean their dog off, say, a head collar or no-pull harness? You said off leash reliability is something everyone wants, and I'm saying you can have off leash reliability and still need to walk your dog on a head collar or whatever. It just depends on what you spend your time on. Off leash reliability it important for us because we mostly walk our dogs off leash at the dog park. They are way more reliable off leash than on because that's where we've put in most of our work. There's that tendency to switch off once they are on leash.

In my mother's case, her requirements are not as stringent as ours. She doesn't meet many dogs when she's got hers off leash and those she does meet are friends' dogs in most cases. All she wants is that they come back when called. They do. And she puts them back on the head collar. If she wanted to get them off the head collars she could train it. She has the ability. She just doesn't have the motivation. I think that's fine as long as she and her dogs are happy and safe, which they are.