Chronic Puller! Help!

[persephone]

Only thing he really taught me was how to roll a smoke and drive at the same time LMFAO. Ahhh good times!

LOVE it! :rolleyes:

[Erny]

[lanabanana]

I by no means advocate rolling a smoke while driving....nor smoking in the car...nor smoking at all I should add but that was a lesson I remember very well!

His reasoning "So you don't have to ask a non smoking passenger to roll for you coz they won't be able to roll a decent one"

I was 17 and a smoker so it wasn't a completely wasted lesson LOL

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

lanabanana

When you walk dogs at night, in the dark, you are more likely to meet aggressive dogs. Unfortunately that's usually when they get walked because there are fewer dogs around and the owners are less likely to run into trouble and more likely to escape if things go wrong.

It may be that your dog picks up on aggressive "vibes" from these other dogs and that contributes to his reaction. It would be bad if he learns that is an appropriate way for a dog to behave.

Blocking is good. Even if he's already spotted the other dog, try it anyway.

If you do decide to get a trainer / behaviourist, make sure they train you as well as the dog. Don't send the dog away to be trained without you, by people who won't let you watch or learn their methods. K9 Pro has some good articles about how to pick a good trainer and hopefully avoid the bad ones.

http://www.k9pro.com.au/pages.php?pageid=81

Glad the harness is helping. Just one note - don't leave it on him unattended - it can be chewed off, it's only for walking / training.

kamuzz - you're probably right about different interpretations of the same words. There are some tools out there that I would not try without supervision from an experienced trainer until I gained understanding and co-ordination in correct / effective use.

Note - unlike some of these other people - I am not a professional dog trainer. I do have experience with various chronic pulling dogs.

[lanabanana]

lanabanana

When you walk dogs at night, in the dark, you are more likely to meet aggressive dogs. Unfortunately that's usually when they get walked because there are fewer dogs around and the owners are less likely to run into trouble and more likely to escape if things go wrong.

It may be that your dog picks up on aggressive "vibes" from these other dogs and that contributes to his reaction. It would be bad if he learns that is an appropriate way for a dog to behave.

Blocking is good. Even if he's already spotted the other dog, try it anyway.

If you do decide to get a trainer / behaviourist, make sure they train you as well as the dog. Don't send the dog away to be trained without you, by people who won't let you watch or learn their methods. K9 Pro has some good articles about how to pick a good trainer and hopefully avoid the bad ones.

http://www.k9pro.com.au/pages.php?pageid=81

Glad the harness is helping. Just one note - don't leave it on him unattended - it can be chewed off, it's only for walking / training.

kamuzz - you're probably right about different interpretations of the same words. There are some tools out there that I would not try without supervision from an experienced trainer until I gained understanding and co-ordination in correct / effective use.

Note - unlike some of these other people - I am not a professional dog trainer. I do have experience with various chronic pulling dogs.

Yea I never thought of aggressive dogs being walked at night - that's a good point. I know all the dogs on our street are walked during the day but I wouldn't have a clue once outside the end of the street. Will have to bear that in mind.

Yep, I know about not leaving the harness on him. I would never leave it on unless we were about to go out. In fact, I don't even like collars on my dogs (they have worn them off and on over the years) and the only reason they have collars an dtags now is because a few weeks ago a rotten part of the back fence fell off and they both got out. Luckily we were home and went in the back yard about 2 minutes after it happened and we found them very very quickly. Anyway, my point was, they are both chipped but that is no use if someone doesn't bother taking them to get scanned because they want to keep them (more concerned this would happen to the midget than the puller) but for some reason it makes me feel like someone would be less likely to keep them if they have a collar and tag on LOL. Stupid I know. Fence was repaired immediately and is now checked every morning before I go to work to make sure there are no loose pales or holes anywhere

Sorry - long way of saying I wouldnt leave a harness on LOL

[huski]

I will spend whatever it takes but I would like to try and work it out with my boy myself first. He is the first dog I have had I have not been able to get walking nicely on lead so if I can I want to work out what works for us without having someone else show me. I can't learn and perfect better techniques if I have to get someone round to show me each time I have a dog something doesn't work for.

Ah see you are more patient than I am... I would rather learn how to do it properly the first time plus I really enjoy learning from someone more experienced than I am... my poor dog already has to put up with me being a total noob of a handler, the least I can do for her is try to learn as much as I can rather than testing a million and one different things before I find one that works!

Why make it harder for yourself - have someone put you on the right track so then when you put the effort in, you know it will work

[lanabanana]

I will spend whatever it takes but I would like to try and work it out with my boy myself first. He is the first dog I have had I have not been able to get walking nicely on lead so if I can I want to work out what works for us without having someone else show me. I can't learn and perfect better techniques if I have to get someone round to show me each time I have a dog something doesn't work for.

Ah see you are more patient than I am... I would rather learn how to do it properly the first time plus I really enjoy learning from someone more experienced than I am... my poor dog already has to put up with me being a total noob of a handler, the least I can do for her is try to learn as much as I can rather than testing a million and one different things before I find one that works!

Why make it harder for yourself - have someone put you on the right track so then when you put the effort in, you know it will work

good points...very. And we will go there if we need to.

I have had a trainer before, and that particular one didn't really tell me anything I didn't already know - that was a while ago though and lots of new techniques are around now

[persephone]

I have had a trainer before, and that particular one didn't really tell me anything I didn't already know

Well ,perhaps you should find a better one

[huski]

good points...very. And we will go there if we need to.

I have had a trainer before, and that particular one didn't really tell me anything I didn't already know - that was a while ago though and lots of new techniques are around now

There are definitely some trainers out there who leave a lot to be desired!

I guess it also depends on what you want to learn. Seeking assistance and knowledge from a reputable trainer for something you are having a problem with does not mean you have to seek them out every time you have a problem, either.

I guess I don't think of consulting with a trainer as a last resort - I would rather seek out knowledge before something becomes a serious problem.

[corvus]

I can appreciate wanting to work it out for yourself. If you get someone to help you it will all be filtered through their experiences and views. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but there is usually more than one way to do something in training. I like to brainstorm a bunch of different ideas and run them past a bunch of different people with different experiences. It usually throws up some things I hadn't thought of or considered. There's nothing like having a good discussion about it with other people and getting a feel for the different approaches that have been used and what kinds of dogs and situations they have been effective on.

I would hire a trainer tomorrow if I could find one that could advise me on how to get a wild hare out of a behaviour rut of avoiding his trainer. Unfortunately, I can't even find someone online over a myriad of training boards and lists that has any ideas. I've got several ideas, but I always balk before applying anything with this animal because if I mess up it's a big deal and I may never be able to fix it. And the stakes are higher than usual this time because we're talking about his relationship with me! I think dog folk have got it easy. But everytime I go through this process of brainstorming and consulting I learn a lot. When it comes to practical skills, though, it's great to have someone to show you.

[4lex]

Hi everyone

Been a while since I have visited the forums and forgot how informative it is

This is a great thread which holds my interest and I have read every post digesting all the information and opinions offered which covers a wide range of ideas. Someone mentioned Koehler methods for teaching the loose leash walk, and although some may be critical of the Keohler system which I agree with some of the Keohler routines, but the basic leash training the Koehler way along with my own version of positive reinforcement is what I still use today with very good results. I will be honest to say, that I have never found a dog that didn't respond favourably to the routine and learn to walk on a loose leash.

It's surprising the amount of people who swear never to be aligned with the traditional "yank and crank", but advocate about turns, change of direction and using the long line when leash training a dog which is all Koehler foundation work and is very good. Yes, there is an element of correction or aversion involved, but the level of correction depends on the individual dog. Some need a somewhat heavy correction and some just a wriggle of the leash to gain a response, but I can say this foundation system will train the dog and work towards unleashed reliable obedience.

Koehler's foundation leash work was designed to achieve unleashed obedience and it's very true that the finished product of Koehler obeidence didn't wear a collar and leash at all. The "yank and crank" didn't last very long as the dog's obedience was polished off leash after a few weeks. Not that I am posting to sing Koehler praises, but the basic leash foundation work IMHO is still the best around. What I don't understand is when, albiet old leash training system, followed correctly, especially with positive reinforcement added into the mix works so well, where the need arises for the use of haltis and harnesses to teach the loose leash walk.

I understand a dog not having much foundation work on leash and taken for a walk can be improved with some of these devices including prong collars, but I see in this system a "training on the run" situation which in some cases can amount to a drawn out exercise taking weeks and months even years to establish the obedience one is looking to achieve. I think of leash training like breaking in a horse and always begin a new dog in the park with low distractions first before I venture onto the streets and footpaths, because the dog will fail for sure when met with the slightest distraction without some foundation work.

Maybe, I am just "old hat" and need to learn some new tricks, but seriously, I have never had anything I would call successful leash training in a reasonable time frame foundation training on the street engulfed with distractions that the dog can't yet handle. There is some extremely interesting advice here on this thread and wanted to share my perspective for anyone interested.

Cheers Ken

[lanabanana]

I am going to have a look at this keohler (sp) method just out of interest.

I am definitely open to learning new things, and some of the advice and suggestions in this thread have been awesome. All have been taken on board and I imagine some put to use and others discarded or perhaps a mash of all different types.

We won't wait until the last resort to get a trainer, but we will probably give th eharness and the "back to basics" a go for the next few months and see how we get on. If we aren't clicking, then we will call someone in and do some research into someone who looks like they will be able to help us and our dog in the best way. I will most likely ask for some advice if and when we get a trainer in around how to select a good trainer LOL

[huski]

Ken - as I asked Black Bronson a few pages back, sure you might have seen results in the old days with Koehler methods but nowdays we see a whole range of breeds competing in dogs sports that we didn't see back then. How many scent hounds were successfully trained with Koehler methods? How many were trained to total off leash reliability in a matter of weeks?

There's a difference between using a forceful correction designed to air block a dog and the slight correction given trouh a change of direction. Sure what is aversive changes depending on the dog but Why use more force than necessary?

[Staranais]

The Koehler method for lose leash walking can be a good method when done by the book. I trained my last dog to loose leash walk pretty much that way. And have used similar methods with friends' dogs. I don't know anyone who has done the Koehler method of loose leash walking by the book who has an issue with it. I'm not sure if I'd use it again for my own dog, though.

In my last dog, I liked the reliability the method produced, how easy and quick and simple it was to teach, and the way the behaviour required very little maintenance or upkeep throughout his life. In short, it produced a happy dog who didn't pull on the leash, which in my experience is all that 99% of pet owners desire. And it didn't stop me teaching him a very flashy focused competition-style heel later in life using purely motivational methods.

I didn't like the way the behaviour was so inflexible. I prefer having a dog who will trot right by my side when asked to do so, but who feels free to roam around within the confines of the leash (without pulling me around) at other times. I don't really like having a dog that will automatically plod by my left side at all times during a walk, which is what the method produces. I haven't used the method with my current girl since I like her to have a variety of walking behaviours on cue. (Also, since I've had her from a baby, she has never really been allowed to start pulling in the first place, hence I have no need of a check chain to fix the problem).

I'd also say that I don't particularly like the Koehler method for teaching any commands other than loose leash walking. Pushing your dog into a sit or down until he gets the idea isn't the most inspired way to teach it, for example, and isn't any quicker than using food rewards and a clicker. And the last section of the book about correcting problem behaviours is so abusive that it should not be published anymore, IMO.

JMO.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Staranais

[4lex]

I am going to have a look at this keohler (sp) method just out of interest.

I am definitely open to learning new things, and some of the advice and suggestions in this thread have been awesome. All have been taken on board and I imagine some put to use and others discarded or perhaps a mash of all different types.

We won't wait until the last resort to get a trainer, but we will probably give th eharness and the "back to basics" a go for the next few months and see how we get on. If we aren't clicking, then we will call someone in and do some research into someone who looks like they will be able to help us and our dog in the best way. I will most likely ask for some advice if and when we get a trainer in around how to select a good trainer LOL

What I like about the Koehler perspective a lot, is not entirely the actual method which I have modified myself adding positive reinformcent into it also, but the concept doesn't throw a dog into the deep end intially where they fail. Most people as anyone normally would do, take their new dog or puppy when old enough out for walk down the footpath on the street. Wow!!!, what excitement is out here the dog thinks as he/she begins to enjoy it's self. The handler is on the end of the leash with a dog that won't do anything you would like it to do, darting around, pulling, choking, lunging and doesn't seem to respond to anything for any longer than a few seconds and of course, the bigger the dog gets, the harder it pulls and the more it plays up on leash with a very frustrated owner being lead around by the dog. The dog has no idea what you need from it on leash and thinks it's a "free for all" to pleasure it's self with fun and excitement is all the dog really knows. What the Koehler basics teaches, is for the dog to focus upon you and learn to walk on a leash with limited distractions in small steps before you hit the streets.

When the dog is foundation trained on leash and distractions are slowly increased as I establish in the park, once the dog is ready for the streets and footpaths, it's learned the basics already and has the opportunity for success. The dog also learns that the fun lies with you and nothing can provide the pleasure that the handler can provide is my ultimate goal. The concept is to begin low key and increase distractions as the dog adjusts and behaves with handler focus instead of just hitting the footpath with a dog that hasn't learned the basics of how to behave.

Hope this makes sense what I am trying to say

Cheers Ken

[4lex]

Ken - as I asked Black Bronson a few pages back, sure you might have seen results in the old days with Koehler methods but nowdays we see a whole range of breeds competing in dogs sports that we didn't see back then. How many scent hounds were successfully trained with Koehler methods? How many were trained to total off leash reliability in a matter of weeks?

There's a difference between using a forceful correction designed to air block a dog and the slight correction given trouh a change of direction. Sure what is aversive changes depending on the dog but Why use more force than necessary?

Hi Huski

I will duck for cover from the shower of rotten eggs about to be thrown at me lol!!!, as I have in the past trained Koehler methods with many dogs, but found as time evolved that I could improve the system with the inclusion of positives into Koehler's basic system with faster results and less aversives. I think the modern methods in dogsport has extracted the ability for the success of breeds not previously used for sure and has probably also increased the sporting potential for dogs perhaps of the preferred breed but lacking the natural traits and ability. Individual dog selection was of major importance in the "old days" that responded well to aversive methods, where if a dog shut down on correction, the dog was condsidered no good and rehomed in many cases.

Each dog is an individual in how they respond and focus even in the same breed, some focus easily, some are more difficult and some take some real work to get the basics. Sometimes you can get a dog that has the attitude "make me do it", and aversives I have found works best with dogs of that nature, but a good responsive dog, there is little need.

Cheers Ken

[Prydenjoy]

Why use more force than necessary?

Good question! I'd love to hear the answer, because it's never been something I could get my head around.

We all love our dogs, right? Why hurt the things you love? When there is a better way?

[4lex]

The Koehler method for lose leash walking can be a good method when done by the book. I trained my last dog to loose leash walk pretty much that way. And have used similar methods with friends' dogs. I don't know anyone who has done the Koehler method of loose leash walking by the book who has an issue with it. I'm not sure if I'd use it again for my own dog, though.

In my last dog, I liked the reliability the method produced, how easy and quick and simple it was to teach, and the way the behaviour required very little maintenance or upkeep throughout his life. In short, it produced a happy dog who didn't pull on the leash, which in my experience is all that 99% of pet owners desire. And it didn't stop me teaching him a very flashy focused competition-style heel later in life using purely motivational methods.

I didn't like the way the behaviour was so inflexible. I prefer having a dog who will trot right by my side when asked to do so, but who feels free to roam around within the confines of the leash (without pulling me around) at other times. I don't really like having a dog that will automatically plod by my left side at all times during a walk, which is what the method produces. I haven't used the method with my current girl since I like her to have a variety of walking behaviours on cue. (Also, since I've had her from a baby, she has never really been allowed to start pulling in the first place, hence I have no need of a check chain to fix the problem).

I'd also say that I don't particularly like the Koehler method for teaching any commands other than loose leash walking. Pushing your dog into a sit or down until he gets the idea isn't the most inspired way to teach it, for example, and isn't any quicker than using food rewards and a clicker. And the last section of the book about correcting problem behaviours is so abusive that it should not be published anymore, IMO.

JMO.

Hi Staranais,

I appreciate your response very much, I had gone out on a limb a bit mentioning Koehler although I thought in a loose leash walking discussion it was worthy of mention. I totally agree with your perception of the routines teaching commands especially the sit and the correction for non compliance yanking the leash straight up I have done it, and the last time many years ago now, I felt that I had breached the trust that the dog had for me from the look on it's face afterwards. I don't know if dogs think like that, but that correction didn't feel good for me to continue. I now actually train the sit and drop first before I concentrate on leash behavior especially with a puppy so the dog knows and responds to the command. I use both food and toys with a puppy in drive to get the fast immediate sits and drops in the Balabanov methods I prefer.

I think Keohler did himself major damage and created hatred towards his methodology in general with correction of problem behaviour which I believe still remains in the current publication of his training book. My copy that is around somewhere was printed in 1968 I recall.

What you describe of the loose leash reliability of the Koehler system is exactly as I have found it and for the most part is exceptionally good in developing the basic foundations I think too.

Cheers Ken

Just to add as an after thought Staranais, my last dog trained in full Koehler method prior to my own adjustment, did suffer from inflexability with a send out off leash. I never managed to really correct the problem, he would run out about 10 metres, stop and look over his shoulder at me for a second command???. I managed to smoothen the routine, but never polish it reliably. Perhaps an inflexability symptom as you mentioned???.

Edited June 6, 2010 by 4lex

[4lex]

Why use more force than necessary?

Good question! I'd love to hear the answer, because it's never been something I could get my head around.

We all love our dogs, right? Why hurt the things you love? When there is a better way?

That was a problem when the Keohler methods were practiced widely I recall and many dogs were over heavily corrected. In many cases it wasn't that the trainers liked doing what they did, including myself in that reference, but it was the way it had to be done. Things evolved from there where the better trainers then customised the level of correction to suit the requirements of individual dogs. With a responsive dog of natural focus, the corrections can be no more aversive than a small pop or wiggle of the leash. The intention of the Koehler method was not the application of corrections but ideally to teach the dog handler focus as the priority. In the modified system on the long line that I use now, the dog is rarely corrected if at all. It's a game of "follow me" with play reward when they get it right, but the basics are the same Koehler principal.

Cheers Ken

[m-j]

There was a time when Koehler style obedience training won everything and the dogs trained that way were millimeter perfect in their routines but some that were under heavy handed training (Koehler to extreme) although perfect in obedience, were considered flat in performance, didn't have "happy feet" I remember someone describing the flatness as.

When Koehler was in vouge that was all there was. If you used food or were "soft"you certainly didn't admit it Training with food was scorned and you were not considered to be a dog trainer's rear end. In his book Koehler makes constant reference to those he considered to be wimps (not his words but something similar). As has been mentioned how many were written off as too soft (not saying that rehoming a dog because it doesn't suit your requirements isn't ok, as long as it goes to a good home) At least the handlers these days are training all types of dogs not just the ones that could take the knocks or had preparedness to conform to humans, to me these are real dog trainers as they know more about motivating all dogs, not just certain types.

As far as using a harness goes try to tell the 69 yr old lady I was talking to today they aren't an effective training tool. She was nearly crying tears of joy (so was I, as her mood was very infectious) and she also gave me a huge hug, because she can now walk her 5yr old male Mal without her hip hurting her from correcting the pulling and the lunging at other dogs. In just 9 days this behaviour has ceased, she can now walk down streets she has avoided because of the dogs that rush the fence. You might ask why did a older lady take on an entire male Mal (as I did initially) but long story short she saved him from death row because his irresponsible previous owners. He is a lovely dog and didn't deserve to die.

I don't know anyone who has done the Koehler method of loose leash walking by the book who has an issue with it. I'm not sure if I'd use it again for my own dog, though.

I do, he followed it to the tee even when the dog had an extinction burst similar to the one described in the book. After that show this dog a check chain and it curled up into the foetal position, it was very sad to see The modified versions you get now seem ok not that I've ever done it.

cheers

M-J

Edited June 6, 2010 by m-j