Code Of Ethics Breached And Dogs Qld Don't Seem To Care

[oakway]

I have read the ad carefully no where does it say it will allow the matings of unregistered stock.

Yes, but what does it imply to you???

A conformation call is needed, that's what I'm going on about.

Is there something wrong with my written language, that ppl keep missing it????

It implies that people do not use the correct terminology.

It implies to me that people are using the terminology of the layman.

[Steve]

Im happy to ring them and be up front about who I am and ask the questions.

Send me the phone number [email protected]

[Puppoochi]

Im happy to ring them and be up front about who I am and ask the questions.

Send me the phone number [email protected]

hey Steve, thanks, email sent, however, if you tell her who you are first, she'd be an idiot admit to anything.

[oakway]

Im happy to ring them and be up front about who I am and ask the questions.

Send me the phone number [email protected]

hey Steve, thanks, email sent, however, if you tell her who you are first, she'd be an idiot admit to anything.

If she doesn't the word entrapment comes to mind.

[Puppoochi]

I have read the ad carefully no where does it say it will allow the matings of unregistered stock.

Yes, but what does it imply to you???

A conformation call is needed, that's what I'm going on about.

Is there something wrong with my written language, that ppl keep missing it????

It implies that people do not use the correct terminology.

It implies to me that people are using the terminology of the layman.

So in that case, who is the ad targeting? Registered breeders don't need layman's terms, whereas BYB might.

Also, if you are telling me it only implies what you say, then why did I get the impression that this breeder doesn't care what she breeds her dogs to?

Edited August 19, 2010 by poodiful1

[Puppoochi]

Im happy to ring them and be up front about who I am and ask the questions.

Send me the phone number [email protected]

hey Steve, thanks, email sent, however, if you tell her who you are first, she'd be an idiot admit to anything.

If she doesn't the word entrapment comes to mind.

Entrapment definition

In criminal law, entrapment is when a law enforcement agent induces a person to commit an offense which the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit. In many jurisdictions,

If a cop pretends he's a john, and hires a hooker, then charges her for soliciting, that is not entrapment because her intention WAS to solicit herself for $$$$

Sorry, I live in St Kilda and that's the first example that sprung to mind

Edited August 19, 2010 by poodiful1

[baykinz]

Of course a confirmation call is what is needed to determine the breeder's intentions, but it is probably a vain hope to expect any representative of Dogs QLD to conceal their identity when contacting a member.

Doing so would open themselves up to complaint if the member in question found out about the investigation (and could possibly be a breach of their own code of conduct as appointed RNA members, although I wouldn't know). It's very different to contact someone as a private citizen than it is to contact someone as a representative of a business or other organisation pretending to be contacting them as a private citizen. Pretence like you mentioned with soliciting isn't quite the same, because the police are an organisation operating with the assumption that, at times, deception is very much under their purview and they have defined structures meant to guide how they use deception. I doubt Dogs QLD has that kind of framework in which to make decisions on appropriate and inappropriate deception, because they aren't an organisation operating under the assumption that they might need to use deception in their day-to-day business.

Contacting the member with the details of the complaint is probably the only way Dogs QLD, or any relevant organising body, has to move forward without misrepresenting themselves, and it is unlikely they are able to move forward at all if they are prevented from presenting the complaint transparently. It's not very convenient and it may well prevent them from getting the bottom of the issue, but you're probably tilting at windmills trying to change it.

[Christina]

Lost cause. The ad is simple to find. They are breeding Parti Miniatures as well.

DOL listed so have probably read this whole thread by now.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Christina

[oakway]

Lost cause. The ad is simple to find. They are breeding Parti Miniatures as well.

DOL listed so have probably read this whole thread by now.

Exactly.

Not only that, the person may not have have broken any rules what so ever. We have a thing in this country called the trade practices act.

That act takes precedence over all.

If it didn't we could have put the word puppy farmer to rest.

[Steve]

No rules have been broken or will be broken - Ive rung and had a chat to the lady in question. She doesn't allow her dogs to go out to dogs which are not on main register.

Nothing to worry about. I was happy with her explanation and so will QCCC

Julie

[Puppoochi]

No rules have been broken or will be broken - Ive rung and had a chat to the lady in question. She doesn't allow her dogs to go out to dogs which are not on main register.

Nothing to worry about. I was happy with her explanation and so will QCCC

Julie

Thanks for that Julie

If you don't mind, would you care to share with us what $700pet bitch means to the breeder posting the ad.

[Puppoochi]

Lost cause. The ad is simple to find. They are breeding Parti Miniatures as well.

DOL listed so have probably read this whole thread by now.

Exactly.

Not only that, the person may not have have broken any rules what so ever. We have a thing in this country called the trade practices act.

That act takes precedence over all.

If it didn't we could have put the word puppy farmer to rest.

Does that mean that we can basically do anything we like despite what the Code of Ethics say, so long as it is for the benefit of financial gain?

Surely not

I'm so living in fairyland.

If this is true, the whole pedigree show world is a farce.

Edited August 19, 2010 by poodiful1

[Steve]

Lost cause. The ad is simple to find. They are breeding Parti Miniatures as well.

DOL listed so have probably read this whole thread by now.

Exactly.

Not only that, the person may not have have broken any rules what so ever. We have a thing in this country called the trade practices act.

That act takes precedence over all.

If it didn't we could have put the word puppy farmer to rest.

Does that mean that we can basically do anything we like despite what the Code of Ethics say, so long as it is for the benefit of financial gain?

Surely not

I'm so living in fairyland.

If this is true, the whole pedigree show world is a farce.

Sort of - with regards to where you can sell them and to whom - for example federal law says we can sell our puppies to pet shops and if the CC's stop that then its called restriction of trade and its not able to be enforced. In part this is because the ANKC is the only governing stud registry which is affiliated with the FCI and if want to have our puppies pedigrees internationally recognised we have no choice but to be a CC member. If there were two so therefore we had a choice that would be different and we could choose to be in one which restricted us when the other didnt. Thats never going to happen even if a new registry was started as FCI rules say only one regsitry per country is able to be accepted. We also have the right to put our own prices on things and services. Any Australian code which still has a clause which prohibits where a breeder can sell their puppies or to whom simply means that no one as yet has disputed the wording with the ACCC.

From my converstation with the person who advertised the only thing that is a bit different is that she charges two different prices depending on whether

the person getting the service shows their dogs. Thats her right and the minute you start pushing for set prices etc then you are in the realm of price fixing which is also a federal offence.

[Steve]

Id also like to ad that no law in Australia can over ride federal law - which means we cant stop people farming puppies,we cant restrict how many they own or breed or where they sell,where they advertise them or how they advertise them assuming of course they comply with POCTA, mandatory state codes and by laws for development applications etc.

People have a right to breed dogs, sell them and make a lot of money off them and anything anyone does which stops them or restricts them from doing that and competing in an open market is illegal.

This is why the MDBA set up under the legal entity we did rather than an association - because we can restrict our members.

[Puppoochi]

Thanks Julie,

this has been very insightful for me, and at the same time, I feel stupid, ignorant and ill informed, along with having lost faith in our CC. I don't understand then if this is all true, how is it that the CC can suspend and fine a member for having bred 3 litters in 18months. Why can they suspend one member for breaching the code and not the other???

The other thing that really bothers me is that while I think DOL is a great place to showcase dogs and advertise studs and puppies, there are way too many breeders listed that do not, and have no interest in participating in CC activitivies, and more often than not the quality of dogs produced are obviously inferior. Just look at the Toy Poodle puppies for sale, to me it is very obvious that the majority of breeders are not breeding to improve the breed at all, they're just doing it for the almighty $.

IMO it cheapens the breed and to tell you the truth, the majority of toy poodles I see walking around the street are incredibly badly bred.

[raz]

Gee Julie answered your question. What's your axe to grind?

[Steve]

Thanks Julie,

this has been very insightful for me, and at the same time, I feel stupid, ignorant and ill informed, along with having lost faith in our CC. I don't understand then if this is all true, how is it that the CC can suspend and fine a member for having bred 3 litters in 18months. Why can they suspend one member for breaching the code and not the other???

The other thing that really bothers me is that while I think DOL is a great place to showcase dogs and advertise studs and puppies, there are way too many breeders listed that do not, and have no interest in participating in CC activitivies, and more often than not the quality of dogs produced are obviously inferior. Just look at the Toy Poodle puppies for sale, to me it is very obvious that the majority of breeders are not breeding to improve the breed at all, they're just doing it for the almighty $.

IMO it cheapens the breed and to tell you the truth, the majority of toy poodles I see walking around the street are incredibly badly bred.

Yes its often a shock moment when you really stand back and read the code of ethics and see between the lines what people are really able to do. They can cross breed , they can breed unregistered dogs, they can sell to pet shops, they can sell whole litters to dealers for over seas pet shops etc.

Then you get the PR stuff they introduce without a scrap of science which they chuck you out over or fine you.

Things like minimum ages for breeding, maximum ages for breeding, how often you can have litter is introduce for nothing more than because someone thinks it looks good with no consideration for things like the risks of cystic endometrial hyperplasia. Now its you're not allowed to take a pregnant bitch to a dog show.Victoria want to talk about how many dogs you should own , how many litters you can have and they want evidence to show you are breeding champions etc. they can punish you for breeding too often but not for where or how you sell your puppies because how often you breed a dog isn't covered by ACCC.

You cant say who does and who does not have any interest in improving the breed and your definition of what that is wont be the same as someone else's. The RSPCA and Paul McGreevy for example would disagree with what you think is in the best interests of the breed.

No one can say either whether someone is going after the mighty dollar over genetic health because no one really knows what one breeder's goals are and what they are working on in their breeding program.

Edited August 20, 2010 by Steve