Please Help With Gsd Aggression.

[Red Fox]

Dont think any book will be able to solve your problem. You need to see a professional trainer.

I don't. And I'd be mad to!

Yep, and I certainly wasn't suggesting books would, either. It's just stuff that may or may not be useful in general/in the meantime. I figured that's the way RockDog would have taken it.

I know you weren't suggesting it that way Corvus, but plenty of people do buy books and think that by following the techniques in there, that they will somehow be able to magically fix their dog. Glad the OP isn't one of them but it's an easy trap to fall into :D

[RockDog]

To the original poster (sorry, I forgot your name) did you end up putting a muzzle on your dog when out walking?

It's Sian. But don't try pronouncing it!

Actually, it's pronounced Shaarn. I'm from Wales, and it's a very common name at home.

No, I don't have a muzzle. The visiting vet has them but he's not coming up here for another two and a half weeks.

Not too keen to get one anyway, as it's been suggested to me this morning (and I've read the same many times) that muzzling him at the moment may actually exasperate the situation by increasing his frustration.

I'm not against it, just want to be careful not to put him in a worse state.

Now before you all start, yes I know that attacking a dog WILL put him in a worse state - as in possibly death row. I'm considering that.

The other night when Rocky wanted to get to my friend's Shih-Tzu across the street from the chip shop, he was on a flat collar (because we'd been in the car and I hadn't intended getting him out) and it was hard to keep him with me when he lunged.

Now, whenever we leave the house for whatever reason, I take the Gentle Leader and a short, strong, "Bungee" lead whith a flat handle. Much more control incase he sees another dog.

Which we try to avoid anyway.

We don't go for 'walks' as such, I drive him to, say, the beach, the other beach, the oval, the tennis courts, up river in the bush etc, and let him off leash there to run around or we have long games of fetch (practicing come, sit, stay, look, give, etc).

So there's another question for you guys to chew on -

What do people think about whether I should muzzle Rocky for now or not?

Given his age and recent history, is it wise to muzzle him and risk making things worse?

I'm leaning against it, going on proffessional advice, but just interested to hear what others think.

[Kavik]

Not going to comment on the muzzle as I don't know.

But the lead - is it stretchy? I personally don't like stretchy leads as I feel they give me less control as you are less certain what your actual potential reach is.

ETA: and if you think it at ALL possible that he might be able to get out of the gentle leader, I would also have a back up collar attached. My preference for a back up collar is a check chain that is a little bit bigger than 'ideal' size so you can attach lead to both. Otherwise, I think you can get those attachments that allow you to attach lead to both gentle leader and flat collar.

Edited September 20, 2010 by Kavik

[RockDog]

Not going to comment on the muzzle as I don't know.

But the lead - is it stretchy? I personally don't like stretchy leads as I feel they give me less control as you are less certain what your actual potential reach is.

That's the one.

It's only about 3' long, including handle. It's actually not that stratchy really. if you hold an end in each hand and pull it's quite tough.

A bit like the old "chest expanders" in the 70s but in reverse. If you see what I mean.

(No, I didn't have one, my dad did when he was having a midlife crisis after the divorce! )

OK, tmi.

[RockDog]

ETA: and if you think it at ALL possible that he might be able to get out of the gentle leader, I would also have a back up collar attached. My preference for a back up collar is a check chain that is a little bit bigger than 'ideal' size so you can attach lead to both. Otherwise, I think you can get those attachments that allow you to attach lead to both gentle leader and flat collar.

I'm pretty sure he couldn't get out of the GL.

But if I were to use a back-up collar, couldn't I thread the lead through the D ring on his (sturdy) flat collar? That way If the GL came off or broke, I don't think the whole bunched-up GL would easily get through the D ring.

[SpecTraining]

H In the owners shoes, to have someone with Fiona's experience walking up the driveway to help train your dog and teach you how to handle it properly would be godsend relief, she's definitely a good candidate to achieve a great result, but again I say, not over the internet, and in person only.

Well Garry (such a coincidence you've only just joined, and your first post is defending Fiona?)

I certainly wouldn't let someone like Fiona, who thinks she can analyse a dog and give appropriate advice for aggression over the Internet, anywhere near my dogs or any of my friends dogs.

Since lets see, my friends GSD who suddenly started becoming very snappy and growling at dogs and people. I'm sure she would have just slipped a check chain on him and gone to work "air blocking" the crap out of that dog. Oh but woops that the dog actually have a tumour growing on his spine, which when removed he went straight back to his loveable self.

Obviously you don't need to ask any questions though. If someone asks for advice on stopping an aggressive dog, just choke them right?

Not sure I understand the bolded comment, you have lost me on that one, but what I can say from my experience, is that some experienced working dog handlers and trainers are very handy with aggression issues as most work with it on a daily basis. I have on many occasions seen a good police or security dog handler who are not specifically trainers as such, make dramatic improvements in pet GSD's, Rott's etc displaying aggressive behaviour where behaviourist trainers have failed. Not every recognised behaviourist or trainer are good at dealing with aggression issues although some try their best are still in the learning phase themselves often.

People shouldn't necessarily believe in all cases that because someone promotes themselves as a behaviourist or trainer that they are experienced and competent at dealing with all areas of aggression, some are not.

As far as Fiona's comments are concerned, I don't think her methods should be recommended over a pet dog forum, but her methodology IMHO is not necessarily wrong either. In some cases often in young dogs such a correction can work exceptionally well, others perhaps not. There has also been many dogs diagnosed as untrainable and uncontrollable due to aggression with euthanasia recommended that have been retrained successfully using the methods that Fiona suggested and given a second chance at life. Although those methods are not right for every aggressive dog, for some they well may be the best option.

[Kavik]

I'm pretty sure he couldn't get out of the GL.

But if I were to use a back-up collar, couldn't I thread the lead through the D ring on his (sturdy) flat collar? That way If the GL came off or broke, I don't think the whole bunched-up GL would easily get through the D ring.

It doesn't sit nicely that way and doesn't look very comfortable or as safe I think as the flat collar is not designed to come all the way to the dog's muzzle which is where the lead will attach to the gentle leader.

ETA: I think this looks like a better option if you don't want to use a check chain as back up (one end attach to gentle leader, one end to collar, lead attach to gentle leader.

http://www.blackdog.net.au/index.php

Personally I like check chains as back up because the dog can't get out of it and if you get a good quality one it won't break, so they are a good safety backup.

Edited September 20, 2010 by Kavik

[huski]

In emergency situations we need to make quick decisions. JMO

Malsrock was not talking about emergency situations. He was talking about a way to "train" and "cure" the dog's aggression.

[aussielover]

To the original poster (sorry, I forgot your name) did you end up putting a muzzle on your dog when out walking?

It's Sian. But don't try pronouncing it!

Actually, it's pronounced Shaarn. I'm from Wales, and it's a very common name at home.

No, I don't have a muzzle. The visiting vet has them but he's not coming up here for another two and a half weeks.

Not too keen to get one anyway, as it's been suggested to me this morning (and I've read the same many times) that muzzling him at the moment may actually exasperate the situation by increasing his frustration.

I'm not against it, just want to be careful not to put him in a worse state.

Now before you all start, yes I know that attacking a dog WILL put him in a worse state - as in possibly death row. I'm considering that.

The other night when Rocky wanted to get to my friend's Shih-Tzu across the street from the chip shop, he was on a flat collar (because we'd been in the car and I hadn't intended getting him out) and it was hard to keep him with me when he lunged.

Now, whenever we leave the house for whatever reason, I take the Gentle Leader and a short, strong, "Bungee" lead whith a flat handle. Much more control incase he sees another dog.

Which we try to avoid anyway.

We don't go for 'walks' as such, I drive him to, say, the beach, the other beach, the oval, the tennis courts, up river in the bush etc, and let him off leash there to run around or we have long games of fetch (practicing come, sit, stay, look, give, etc).

So there's another question for you guys to chew on -

What do people think about whether I should muzzle Rocky for now or not?

Given his age and recent history, is it wise to muzzle him and risk making things worse?

I'm leaning against it, going on proffessional advice, but just interested to hear what others think.

I'm not sure whether muzzling will make Rocky worse.

However, if you are going to take him to public places where there is even the slightest chance that he could come across and attack another dog, I think it is only fair to other dog owners to muzzle him. Because, some people have no control over their dogs and will let their smallies run up to him and some people just don't belive you if you tell them he may attack.

do keep in mind that if he attacks a dog of his own size, he may be seriously injured while wearing a muzzle, if the other dog retaliates.

Personally, i think it might be best if you can try to keep him away from other dogs as much as possible.

[RockDog]

Kavic, that link just took me to the Black Dog home page, but I think you were referring to a coupler? I have one, so might use that.

I'm not sure whether muzzling will make Rocky worse.

However, if you are going to take him to public places where there is even the slightest chance that he could come across and attack another dog, I think it is only fair to other dog owners to muzzle him. Because, some people have no control over their dogs and will let their smallies run up to him and some people just don't belive you if you tell them he may attack.

do keep in mind that if he attacks a dog of his own size, he may be seriously injured while wearing a muzzle, if the other dog retaliates.

Personally, i think it might be best if you can try to keep him away from other dogs as much as possible.

Good point about the muzzle. In certain areas, outside the local shops for example, a small dog could appear from nowhere.

Definately trying to keep him away from other dogs as much as possible. We try to find quiet spots (or open spots when he's on the 20m line) at certain times of the day, and I always take my son with me to act as 'look out' for other dogs.

[Kavik]

Yeah I meant the coupler. Sorry didn't realise it would just take you to homepage

[Aidan3]

Gentle Leaders can definitely come off and should always be coupled. They do provide good leverage but can also increase frustration, if you feel this may be the case then a front-attaching harness might be useful (I couple these too, using a double-ended leash or coupler attached to a martingale or well fitted flat collar). See what the behaviourist says.

Muzzles can sometimes be necessary but my preference is that you pretend your dog isn't wearing one; i.e you don't do anything you wouldn't do without the muzzle. Potential problems can arise when people try to do things they wouldn't do if the dog was not muzzled, e.g letting their dog greet dogs they aren't sure about because they don't think anything can really go wrong.

[Zug Zug]

In relation to the gentle leader - I agree you should definitely be coupling to the flat collar as well.

It IS possible for a dog to back out of these things - a smart dog will work this out sooner or later and that won't be a fun day for you I suspect. Make it secure now and every time - before this happens.

I am chuckling from all the references to poodles and owners with chronic back pain. I meet both of these descriptions of pathetic and hopeless handlers/dogs. Oh well!

Funny - my DA dog being a poodle x didn't help much the day she spotted some small dogs off in the distance and ran off down the beach to attack them. Their owner was the only person on that beach more horrified than me. Thank god her dogs were okay - it was such a fast and unexpected thing. If my dog was a GSD that day.... Honestly we were just lucky.

RockDog - it sounds from your recent posts like you are still taking risks by letting your dog off-lead when you are in 'quiet areas' and you are pretty sure the coast is clear.

I have some experience with this - I spent some time in denial too (too much time, I'm afraid - as the lady on the beach that day would certainly agree).

It's just a really bad idea. Your dog will see another dog on the horizon LONG before you will, and will react faster than you will be able to. If you think you can keep your eyes peeled, you're kidding yourself. Keep him on a lead. It's the only way to keep him (and other dogs) safe.

I know it seems unfair - my heart sank too when faced with this prescription for my dog. They love their freedom and it seems such a shame to deny them the chance to run free. But honestly it will keep happening and it's just too big a risk to take. You keep him on lead for his own sake - you are protecting him by doing this, not hurting him.

So often people approach from BEHIND you with another dog. It's just not possible to stop that from happening.

[SpecTraining]

'poodlefan' date='20th Sep 2010 - 04:52 PM' post='4824999']

LMS:

Well Garry (such a coincidence you've only just joined, and your first post is defending Fiona?)

Garry is either cavalry from another forum or another of Malsrocks's personas.

Poodlefan

I actually joined a month ago and popped in today for a read, this thread I found interesting and I decided to make a post for two reasons.

1. I thought it was good advice for people to express concern that Fiona had advised an inexperienced owner of a blocking technique that has the potential to go wrong if carried out incorrectly which is my advice also on a pet dog forum.

2. There is a difference between flaming someone for what she did as I mentioned above, but to flame the method she advised is what prompted me to post. Air blocking in the training of working dogs is common practice and for a person with years of working dog experience the method is not outrageous to them as the pet owners and trainers invisage. However, people do as the OP has along with many others choose working dogs for pets which often come with behavioural challenges that the average pet owner lacking experience with these dogs can't handle.

Ultimately yes, a trainer needs to see the dog to make an accurate assessment of behaviour and some posted outrage how Fiona must be off the planet to make an assessment without seeing the dog. The behaviour of the OP's dog is common for a young GSD that has working potential and they often behave in exactly that manner and worse when not conditioned to avoid this escalation from a pup. This dog could be just as well at home on the end of a police officers leash as it is on the OP's couch, it is a GSD, a working dog after all.

How a pet dog trainer and a working dog trainer may view a situation in the same dog and behaviour can be miles apart and at different ends of the spectrum is all that I wanted to point out. There is no cavalry involved at all, I agree that the method of correction was not the place here to recommend it, but from a working dog mentality I understand where the suggestion is coming from

[huski]

How a pet dog trainer and a working dog trainer may view a situation in the same dog and behaviour can be miles apart and at different ends of the spectrum is all that I wanted to point out. There is no cavalry involved at all, I agree that the method of correction was not the place here to recommend it, but from a working dog mentality I understand where the suggestion is coming from

But the dog is not a working dog. It is a pet dog owned by a new pet owner.

This is not the first time "Fiona" has recommended air blocking as the first and only training method, not in emergencies, just because she thinks it will work. And she's recommended it be used on small low drive dogs. How on earth is that necessary?

[aussielover]

'poodlefan' date='20th Sep 2010 - 04:52 PM' post='4824999']

LMS:

Well Garry (such a coincidence you've only just joined, and your first post is defending Fiona?)

Garry is either cavalry from another forum or another of Malsrocks's personas.

Poodlefan

I actually joined a month ago and popped in today for a read, this thread I found interesting and I decided to make a post for two reasons.

1. I thought it was good advice for people to express concern that Fiona had advised an inexperienced owner of a blocking technique that has the potential to go wrong if carried out incorrectly which is my advice also on a pet dog forum.

2. There is a difference between flaming someone for what she did as I mentioned above, but to flame the method she advised is what prompted me to post. Air blocking in the training of working dogs is common practice and for a person with years of working dog experience the method is not outrageous to them as the pet owners and trainers invisage. However, people do as the OP has along with many others choose working dogs for pets which often come with behavioural challenges that the average pet owner lacking experience with these dogs can't handle.

Ultimately yes, a trainer needs to see the dog to make an accurate assessment of behaviour and some posted outrage how Fiona must be off the planet to make an assessment without seeing the dog. The behaviour of the OP's dog is common for a young GSD that has working potential and they often behave in exactly that manner and worse when not conditioned to avoid this escalation from a pup. This dog could be just as well at home on the end of a police officers leash as it is on the OP's couch, it is a GSD, a working dog after all.

How a pet dog trainer and a working dog trainer may view a situation in the same dog and behaviour can be miles apart and at different ends of the spectrum is all that I wanted to point out. There is no cavalry involved at all, I agree that the method of correction was not the place here to recommend it, but from a working dog mentality I understand where the suggestion is coming from

Pretty much every person who "flamed" Fiona, stated they did not have problem with the methodology itself, but rather the fact that she would recommend it:

1. on a dog she hasn't seen and assessed

2. to an insufficiently experienced person

What is the point of putting such ideas into a persons head, who is clearly not a working dog handler or expereinced dog trainer?

What is even worse, was that she didn't even bother to get all the details (eg the dog being walked on a halti, not a collar) and had the OP actually tried the suggested method, injury to handler and / or dog may have occured. Thankfully the OP was sensible enough not to take on board this particular piece of advice.

Regarding your comments about GSDs, I don't think the OP ever said the dog was working line? The GSD is an all rounder and should make a perfectly suitable family pet. I rather think the issue is with the dog being attacked/annoyed by the other dog (spongey) rather than a breed specific thing.

[lovemesideways]

'poodlefan' date='20th Sep 2010 - 04:52 PM' post='4824999']

LMS:

Well Garry (such a coincidence you've only just joined, and your first post is defending Fiona?)

Garry is either cavalry from another forum or another of Malsrocks's personas. ;)

Poodlefan

I actually joined a month ago and popped in today for a read, this thread I found interesting and I decided to make a post for two reasons.

Whatever you say buddy.

[SpecTraining]

How a pet dog trainer and a working dog trainer may view a situation in the same dog and behaviour can be miles apart and at different ends of the spectrum is all that I wanted to point out. There is no cavalry involved at all, I agree that the method of correction was not the place here to recommend it, but from a working dog mentality I understand where the suggestion is coming from

But the dog is not a working dog. It is a pet dog owned by a new pet owner.

This is not the first time "Fiona" has recommended air blocking as the first and only training method, not in emergencies, just because she thinks it will work. And she's recommended it be used on small low drive dogs. How on earth is that necessary?

Although the dog lives in a pet home, it still carries working traits is what I mean and some of those traits as a pet can be a handful to manange for a new pet owner until gaining experience how to train and manage it. I don't know how air blocking would work on small dogs, as they don't present the challenge to physically restrain them as a big powerful dog does, and have never tried it to be honest. Air blocking something I use with unpredicatable dog's that have an occasional unexpected lunge out of the blue and generally works well in those cases.

A predictable dog, I prefer to use distance where they don't lunge and build their confidence to lessen the distance as you go and the dog learns how to handle the stress of a once reactive target. Throwing a dog in the deep end to purposely lunge to perform an air block is not what I would consider effective training, no.

[huski]

Although the dog lives in a pet home, it still carries working traits is what I mean and some of those traits as a pet can be a handful to manange for a new pet owner until gaining experience how to train and manage it. I don't know how air blocking would work on small dogs, as they don't present the challenge to physically restrain them as a big powerful dog does, and have never tried it to be honest. Air blocking something I use with unpredicatable dog's that have an occasional unexpected lunge out of the blue and generally works well in those cases.

A predictable dog, I prefer to use distance where they don't lunge and build their confidence to lessen the distance as you go and the dog learns how to handle the stress of a once reactive target. Throwing a dog in the deep end to purposely lunge to perform an air block is not what I would consider effective training, no.

It's a bit hypocritical IMO. Malsrock has just argued in another thread that there is a massive difference between WL GSDs and SL GSDs, yet here we are saying that no - a SL is still a working dog

In an emergency situation I would do anything to keep my dog safe and keep other people/dogs safe but I don't see why air blocking should ever be the first choice training method for ANY dog.

[TsarsMum]

this has been an extreamly intresting read.

one thing i would say is either muzzel this dog in public or dont take it out. get one of those cage ones the grey hounds use that would not make him stress out but stops him from attacking. and PLEASE do not put this dog on a long lead or loose if he is on a long lead and bolts are you going to be able to stop him? i know i would not be able too and im a fairly strong person. he will end up killing someone eles pet he.

also is he desexed if not i would be getting it done asap.