.

[.......]

Edited November 22, 2010 by .......

[asal]

I now understand that blue is a dilute of black, and that blue Staffords can't possibly have black noses.

Is fawn a dilute of red? If so, does it being a dilute mean no black noses or does that only affect the blue Staffords because the black pigment has been diluted? I am confused!

if its a flue fawn, yes it will be two blue genes and blue nose on a cream or gold with a blue haze that sometimes is barely discernable and on others very obvious, eg, a brindle all the black hairs would now be blue and quite noticable.

what puzzles me, is if a good line has the blue crop up, if the dogs were good, then the appearance of the blue in a pup should make no difference to the conformation of the pup. blue is not linked to conformation its simply a dilute of black. so by rights if two outstanding blacks did produce a blue pup it should be the same conformation as a black from the same litter?

certainly generations of outstanding border collies had been hiding the gene along with chocolate for over 100 years and ive seen the odd cropouts and they were identical in type to their littermates.

bit like saying a pearl foal will never be anywhere as good as its non pearl siblings, that too is a recessive colour gene.

for example this is a BLACK filly with two pearl genes.

not a particulary pretty breed but looks conformationaly like her companions so i dont think the coat colour influenced her conformation?

http://www.horse-genetics.com/pearl-mare-clarice.html

here are quarter horses with the same gene

http://www.garrakapark.com.au/stallions.htm

Edited November 14, 2010 by asal

[ellz]

Just to confuse things more, you are aware that genetically, there is no such thing as solid black in Staffords aren't you?

[Greytmate]

what puzzles me, is if a good line has the blue crop up, if the dogs were good, then the appearance of the blue in a pup should make no difference to the conformation of the pup. blue is not linked to conformation its simply a dilute of black. so by rights if two outstanding blacks did produce a blue pup it should be the same conformation as a black from the same litter?

certainly generations of outstanding border collies had been hiding the gene along with chocolate for over 100 years and ive seen the odd cropouts and they were identical in type to their littermates.

That is right in a way.

The problems start when people start breeding specifically for a dilute colour like blue. Litters are not identical, each pup has it's own combination of inherited genes. Not every pup from every litter will be worth breeding from, regardless of the pup's pedigree or colour.

The chance of a blue dog unexpectedly in a line not known to carry the colour is low. The likelihood that this pup will be of really excellent quality is even lower.

But people who breed exclusively blue staffords will use dogs that are not of good quality, just to produce the colour. Once the 'rare' colour gains popularity, and people breed for colour as a priority, other important traits can be lost.

In animals and breeds where colour is never important, you do not see a deterioration or change in type in certain colours. It only happens in animals where a colour is more important to people than the breed.

[Greytmate]

Ruger, this site is about whippets, but the information on the D locus is the same as it is in SBT.

Colour Genetics

[asal]

what puzzles me, is if a good line has the blue crop up, if the dogs were good, then the appearance of the blue in a pup should make no difference to the conformation of the pup. blue is not linked to conformation its simply a dilute of black. so by rights if two outstanding blacks did produce a blue pup it should be the same conformation as a black from the same litter?

certainly generations of outstanding border collies had been hiding the gene along with chocolate for over 100 years and ive seen the odd cropouts and they were identical in type to their littermates.

That is right in a way.

The problems start when people start breeding specifically for a dilute colour like blue. Litters are not identical, each pup has it's own combination of inherited genes. Not every pup from every litter will be worth breeding from, regardless of the pup's pedigree or colour.

The chance of a blue dog unexpectedly in a line not known to carry the colour is low. The likelihood that this pup will be of really excellent quality is even lower.

But people who breed exclusively blue staffords will use dogs that are not of good quality, just to produce the colour. Once the 'rare' colour gains popularity, and people breed for colour as a priority, other important traits can be lost.

In animals and breeds where colour is never important, you do not see a deterioration or change in type in certain colours. It only happens in animals where a colour is more important to people than the breed.

JUST noticed you have greyhounds, a good greyhound is NEVER a bad colour is it. LOL

[Greytmate]

JUST noticed you have greyhounds, a good greyhound is NEVER a bad colour is it. LOL

That is right. If people bred for colour as a priority, the dogs would quickly lose ability as the gene pool would be restricted.

[Sandra777]

if its a flue fawn, yes it will be two blue genes and blue nose on a cream or gold with a blue haze that sometimes is barely discernable and on others very obvious, eg, a brindle all the black hairs would now be blue and quite noticable.

I think you are describing a fawn brindle?

In Staffords the blue overlay in the ''blue fawns'' is what is called smut in the breed - often seen on non-dilute reds and has been virutally been proven to be sable, in other words tan pattern.

In Staffords FAWN is an actual colour in the standard as version of ''red'' - which only occurs in the absense of the brindling gene. I'm really not convinced a genetic FAWN colour exists in the breed as a separate gene to the RED but is actually the same gene modified by various factors. In Staffords true RED is a total absense of black hairs so there are no black hairs to be influenced by the dilute gene. Nose nail skin and eye colour in the fawns I have seen are actually extremely dense, most fawns have really dark eyes and black black nails, lips and pads. Not fond of the colour but wow I love their pigment!

what puzzles me, is if a good line has the blue crop up, if the dogs were good, then the appearance of the blue in a pup should make no difference to the conformation of the pup. blue is not linked to conformation its simply a dilute of black. so by rights if two outstanding blacks did produce a blue pup it should be the same conformation as a black from the same litter?

Yes of course this is so - only problem being that in Staffords the number of good blue-carriers worldwide could be counted on the fingers of one hand without removing your mittens A recent arrival from the UK MAY change this, only time will tell.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Sandra777

[TessiesTracey]

Just to confuse things more, you are aware that genetically, there is no such thing as solid black in Staffords aren't you?

I am!

Can't tell you the amount of times people say to me 'oooh he's so black!'... I say nope he IS brindle (yep ok there is only one small stripe of brindle, but you get my drift!)....

[.......]

Edited November 22, 2010 by .......

[Sandra777]

If they only have a black mask on the face are they considered a true red, or are there supposed to be no black on them at all?

Ignore the mask - it's a totally different gene inherited entirely separately to colour. You can get a black mask in any colour. Yes a red can have a black mask and be genetically red.

[asal]

JUST noticed you have greyhounds, a good greyhound is NEVER a bad colour is it. LOL

That is right. If people bred for colour as a priority, the dogs would quickly lose ability as the gene pool would be restricted.

well in the breeds where colour is more important than ability, the blues and chocolates usually never get to live long enough to open their eyes.. so the gene pool is restricted by the survival of only pups of the accepted colour regardless of what ability the now dead pup/pups may have had.

cuts two ways, colour bars and predjuice dont they?

[.......]

Edited November 22, 2010 by .......

[TessiesTracey]

Was directed to an interesting document after asking for more information regarding blue / pigmentation on another forum...

http://www.fci.be/circulaires/14-2009-annex.pdf

[.......]

Edited November 22, 2010 by .......

[TessiesTracey]

Well.. I asked.... and finally got a reply from the UK KC.

Despite how Caroline has worded her reply to me, please be assured, I ASKED if it was possible for a blue Stafford to have a black nose genetically, as I understood that genetically it was not possible. I did NOT STATE it was impossible, as Carolines reply might imply.

Thank you for your enquiry. The Kennel Club Breed Standard describes the ideal specimen of a breed. Whilst some dogs may not comply with all points as described, the judge must take an overview and decide which of the dogs being exhibited most closely meets the standard. The issue of colour is just one of several points described in the standard. However, we would disagree with your view that a blue dog cannot have a black nose as required by the standard. There are blue dogs exhibited in the UK which have black noses.

We hope that this clarification will be of assistance.

Yours sincerely

Caroline Hallett

[Greytmate]

Well.. I asked.... and finally got a reply from the UK KC.

Despite how Caroline has worded her reply to me, please be assured, I ASKED if it was possible for a blue Stafford to have a black nose genetically, as I understood that genetically it was not possible. I did NOT STATE it was impossible, as Carolines reply might imply.

Thank you for your enquiry. The Kennel Club Breed Standard describes the ideal specimen of a breed. Whilst some dogs may not comply with all points as described, the judge must take an overview and decide which of the dogs being exhibited most closely meets the standard. The issue of colour is just one of several points described in the standard. However, we would disagree with your view that a blue dog cannot have a black nose as required by the standard. There are blue dogs exhibited in the UK which have black noses.

We hope that this clarification will be of assistance.

Yours sincerely

Caroline Hallett

And so the gulf continues to widen between the latest genetic knowledge of 2010, and breed standards.

Ruger, that link is fantastic, thanks for posting.

[ellz]

I would strongly suggest you post this on BBO and throw it open for debate.

And if you don't want to, I'll do it with your permission.

[TessiesTracey]

Have posted it Ellz, on the bottom of the blue/CDA thread in Stafford Talk

[ellz]

Have posted it Ellz, on the bottom of the blue/CDA thread in Stafford Talk

Personally I would have posted it as a subject of its own in the Stafford Debate section. More of the "opinionated" folk tend to post in there.