Zug Zug Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I do some volunteer instructing at a local dog club, with beginners. I had a student in class today with a 10 month old labrador pup who is doing really well. The pup is still getting distracted from time to time, but the handler is finding the beginner's class too simple and a little boring. She is a former obedience instructor herself, so she knows what she is doing. She wants to take her dog into class for the opportunity to work with other dogs around, but she is bored at the moment. We talked about a few options. One is we assess her early and look at putting her up into a more advanced class and she works with her dog in, say, class 3. She could handle it I think. Not sure if the pup is ready but he's pretty relaxed so I think he would cope fine. The other option is she does agility training at a different club. I talked to her about where they are - she likes the idea of doing agility with this dog. She thought it was only German Shepherds that did it, but I assured her she would find lots of breeds there. The thing I wasn't sure about is what would her dog need to know (in terms of training) before they went across to agility, if that is what they decide to do? I have heard previously that they really need off-lead control. This pup is a long way from that, and would need to be working on lead for some time yet in that environment. Can some agility people please let me know what the entry requirements are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) Yep I would suggest that off-lead control is pretty essential for starting out agility training. I have seen dogs trained on-lead and I just think its fraught with being potentially far to dangerous. A good recall, good handler focus, a well developed reward structure in place all make training the obstacles simple. Is there any reason why she has to actually put the dog into a formal class and can't just work around the outside and use the other dogs as a distraction. She doesn't have to put the dog in for the full class. Maybe if your allowed to be flexible so she can duck into class and work for short periods of time - so long as its not interrupting the other handlers or dogs or interfering with the way class is run. My youngest went from me training her outside a ring while classes were in progress straight into doing proper ring run outs - she only did one puppy class at our obedience club in her life. However she was also taken to agility training with my older dog from the time she was tiny and I would get her out and work on her obedience/agility foundation skills. Edited February 20, 2011 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zug Zug Posted February 20, 2011 Author Share Posted February 20, 2011 That's another good option - I might suggest it to her next week. Train in her own way at the edges, and join the class from time to time to help her dog feel comfortable with other dogs close. I think the dog will be fine. It's the handler that's bored. But I do see her point - we are going through the basics in this class, and she already knows the basics. I took my dog out of class-based training for quite some time when we first started. We just went on with our training at home, and came back to class when we were ready to move up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 It has been a very long time since German Shepherd Dogs were popular agility prospects. At 10 months, her Labrador would be too young for any kind of agility other than foundation work. Its a gundog - why not point her towards the new retrieving apptitude test or gundog working tests? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) Pro-K9 provides professional tuition in Agility training (classes). I do agree that there is a need to be mindful about what you're doing with a lead, but I don't agree that it is specifically "fraught" with danger. At our most basic level ("Agility Groundwork") we introduce the dogs one by one to each piece of equipment - the way to approach etc. We work predominantly on lead at this level, with off-lead being introduced at or after our "Groundwork *Plus" level (which is the one up from "Groundwork"). What I find (which is in part why I wanted to introduce Agility to our training framework) is that through the learning and enjoyment of Agility, both dog and handler develop a body language co-ordination and focus. Through this I find that their dogs begin to focus more on their owners and become more attentive to them and whilst this is not the be-all and end-all to off lead control, I do find that it greatly assists. I like to use Agility as a fun way of enhancing, complimenting and improving conventional obedience. But I do agree that a basic level of control of your dog is required, even if that happens to necessarily be "on-lead" control only. During these early lessons, my Instructors are able to assess the individual dogs' performances and behaviour and off-lead is introduced according to dog/handler combo capability. To the OP - I agree with Poodlefan .... Foundation Agility is all that I would prescribe for a dog less than 12 months of age. Our Instructor takes into account the ages of our canine members and this dictates what obstacles she will not have the dogs negotiate. Edited February 20, 2011 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I would just move her through the levels quicker. There's no reason that a 12mth old dog can't be doing advanced level stuff with shorter stays. She is obviously more dedicated in showing up to classes and of course, her handling is better so the dog is moving through more quickly than your average student. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I do loads and loads of stand in place then go then tug with my dog and it has really helped with a solid start line stand, I can lead out, fake moves at her and she won't move. And then on release, she blasts off, I put the tug in the hand I held up for starting - ie she is supposed to come up on that side of me and reward with the tug. If I have bungee tug I hang on to it but if its just a little skinneeez I let go, and chase her to keep her moving and call her back and run the other way to get her to chase back to me... There are so many variations on this and it has helped so much with handling. She hasn't nicked off nearly as much as she was before I started. And she's much easier to get back if she does, I just wave a tug at her, hide it and assume the ready to start position, semi crouch, bum out hand up - GO and she comes flying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I'd move her through the levels as well if possible. I have a young lab in my beginners class at the moment who is also doing really well. I've recommended that they start teaching some simple tricks that they can do between exercises if they get bored, and I am happy to help them with some more advanced tricks when they feel they are ready. I was bored in our beginners class too but it was only 8 weeks worth so I persisted. We moved into our club's trialling classes at 12 months old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Maybe I should clarify Erny - I have seen how its taught at some of the clubs here (I am in the same state as Zug Zug) and have seen issues with beginners trying to handle dog/reward/leash and negotiate obstacles. I have seen leads get caught up and I also guess I strongly believe that if your dog isn't going to stay focused and pay attention to you without a lead attached then that should be worked on first before adding the excitment of trying to get the focus in the agility environment. And also a little sick of even beginner dogs who have been doing obstacles on-lead but when a lead has been dropped to enable them to race through a tunnel, for example, it still leads to chaos and racing after other dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 ... And also a little sick of even beginner dogs who have been doing obstacles on-lead but when a lead has been dropped to enable them to race through a tunnel, for example, it still leads to chaos and racing after other dogs. Yes - perhaps the system, technique and class structure is different to ours. I have not experienced this "chaos" you speak of in our classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) I don't understand why people expect to do series of obstacles if they don't have effective offlead control of their dogs. They can't teach lead outs or speed, they can't teach independent obstacle completion and they certainly can't teach turns with a lead on. And once on obstacles, where do they expect the control to miraculously appear from? The dog is more aroused and now in a position to self reward. You don't showjump a horse you can't control on the flat. How do they expect to control the dog when the lead comes off? If the lead is on, its not "agility" as far as I'm concerned. A dog that doesn't have offlead control won't be accepted for training at our club. Edited February 20, 2011 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 X 2! Especially the last sentence Why would we go back 10-15 years when we have so many text, online, visual & overseas presenters as available resources? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) X 2!Especially the last sentence Why would we go back 10-15 years when we have so many text, online, visual & overseas presenters as available resources? I was pretty vocal about "no agility obstacles in dog parks" when the consultative group met to contribute ideas. Its way too easy to compel a dog that has no idea what you want, isn't fit enough, old enough or is too old to attempt things it simply shouldn't be asked to do. Also very easy to check a dog that's jumping, to make it fall off and to overface it with obstacles that are too high or too difficult for it. I've seen it done and it just makes me cringe. Kids love it - one look at most dogs will tell you it's not mutual. Agility is about teamwork. It's not a team when one member is being towed around, being jerked around the neck and has no idea what's expected of them. Don't even get me started about dogs jumping on a lead and halti. This isn't some sort of an elitist rant but motivated from a dog welfare perspective. Quite a few pet owners would be horrified by the idea their dogs were being compelled (however subtely) to do things that they weren't prepared for. Edited February 20, 2011 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) Newbie question alert! Where should dogs learn the control needed to start agility if they can't even get into the beginner's class? Most obedience classes don't do off leash work (except for recalls and stays). My girl works well off leash in general but if another dog gets the zoomies I can't guarantee she won't join in (although she wouldn't be the one starting it). I suspect she'd be fine if I was working with her on agility obstacles with other dogs running nearby, but couldn't test that or improve it if I couldn't get into the class Edited February 20, 2011 by wuffles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) Newbie question alert! Where should dogs learn the control needed to start agility if they can't even get into the beginner's class? Most obedience classes don't do off leash work (except for recalls and stays). My girl works well off leash in general but if another dog gets the zoomies I can't guarantee she won't join in (although she wouldn't be the one starting it). I suspect she'd be fine if I was working with her on agility obstacles with other dogs running nearby, but couldn't test that or improve it if I couldn't get into the class Free running. What you need is to proof a recall under distraction. It's not like you can't use motivators to get her back. Zoomies are pretty normal as dogs start to get aroused by the training. But a dog that won't recall when its the only one offlead is not a dog that's going to have a lot of success when there are multiple dogs training offlead on equipment. It's also a safety issue and a major irritant to other handlers who have to leash their dogs or stop training while the distracted dog ignores its handler. Picture sending your dog up the dog walk or A-Frameonly to have it meet another dog head on or working ahead to a food target to find another dog scoffing it when your dog arrives there. This is how injuries and fights happen. At some point the lead has to come off. It doesn't get easier to control your dog once it's tuned into equipmnet - its harder. If you don't have control from the get go, you're going to have serious issues and be a hazard in most classes. Edited February 20, 2011 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Newbie question alert! Where should dogs learn the control needed to start agility if they can't even get into the beginner's class? Most obedience classes don't do off leash work (except for recalls and stays). My girl works well off leash in general but if another dog gets the zoomies I can't guarantee she won't join in (although she wouldn't be the one starting it). I suspect she'd be fine if I was working with her on agility obstacles with other dogs running nearby, but couldn't test that or improve it if I couldn't get into the class ;) Free running. What you need is to proof a recall under distraction. It's not like you can't use motivators to get her back. Zoomies are pretty normal as dogs start to get aroused by the training. But a dog that won't recall when its the only one offlead is not a dog that's going to have a lot of success when there are multiple dogs training offlead on equipment. It's also a safety issue and a major irritant to other handlers who have to leash their dogs or stop training while the distracted dog ignores its handler. Ta, makes sense I have done a lot of work with her so she does have good recall when free running, and wouldn't be the one to start the zoomies or run around by herself. I was just unsure how much control is expected in the beginner's class, never having been to one and all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) Ta, makes sense ;) I have done a lot of work with her so she does have good recall when free running, and wouldn't be the one to start the zoomies or run around by herself. I was just unsure how much control is expected in the beginner's class, never having been to one and all To some degree this is club dependent. Our club expects you to be able to call your dog up when it is offlead in a training paddock with other onlead dogs about 20 metres away. A dog that takes a couple of calls will pass. A dog that completely blows its handler off to do its own thing or that won't leave the onlead dogs alone will fail. Edited February 20, 2011 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Ta, makes sense ;) I have done a lot of work with her so she does have good recall when free running, and wouldn't be the one to start the zoomies or run around by herself. I was just unsure how much control is expected in the beginner's class, never having been to one and all To some degree this is club dependent. Our club expects you to be able to call your dog up when it is offlead in a training paddock with other onlead dogs about 20 metres away. A dog that takes a couple of calls will pass. A dog that completely blows its handler off to do its own thing or that won't leave the onlead dogs alone will fail. Thanks for clarifying I was imagining a test where dogs would have to stay with the handler while multiple dogs were running all over the place! (Although that's obviously the control to aim for!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Ta, makes sense I have done a lot of work with her so she does have good recall when free running, and wouldn't be the one to start the zoomies or run around by herself. I was just unsure how much control is expected in the beginner's class, never having been to one and all To some degree this is club dependent. Our club expects you to be able to call your dog up when it is offlead in a training paddock with other onlead dogs about 20 metres away. A dog that takes a couple of calls will pass. A dog that completely blows its handler off to do its own thing or that won't leave the onlead dogs alone will fail. Thanks for clarifying I was imagining a test where dogs would have to stay with the handler while multiple dogs were running all over the place! (Although that's obviously the control to aim for!) Strangely enough, you've just described our advanced control test ;) - dogs that enter above beginner level are expected to do just that. You don't get promoted from Level 1 at our club if you have a dog with significant control issues. (says PF with a Whippet that had to repeat Level 1) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zug Zug Posted February 20, 2011 Author Share Posted February 20, 2011 Thanks everyone that has clarified things for me. I do recall thinking that a dog that graduated from our Level 5 would be ready for agility. But there is a lot more in graduating Level 5 than just a good recall, so I'm thinking now that a good pass at Level 3 with a rock solid recall (albeit with a bit of space around the dog) may be enough for her to get started if she likes. I also really like the idea of retrieving trials and gundog work. That might require a bit more travel for this person, but may be a lot of fun for both her and her dog. I'll talk it through with her next week. In the end, it depends on what she wants to do with her dog and she did say she would like to do agility so I suspect it's a question of working at our club as preparation work to get the basic teamwork happening, at which time they are ready to go off and do some agility training elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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