Elimination Diet

[JulesP]

I've been doing an elimination diet with Amber. All is going well. She is ok with beef & rice, lamb seems ok too.

How do you tackle the ingredients in dry food? Something over the last couple of days has upset her. It could either be chicken which will be easy to test or it could be an ingredient in commercially prepared foods.

Do you tackle the dry food as a whole and not feed it if you get a reaction? Or do you try and break it down into the individual ingredients?

[Staranais]

I've been doing an elimination diet with Amber. All is going well. She is ok with beef & rice, lamb seems ok too.

How do you tackle the ingredients in dry food? Something over the last couple of days has upset her. It could either be chicken which will be easy to test or it could be an ingredient in commercially prepared foods.

Do you tackle the dry food as a whole and not feed it if you get a reaction? Or do you try and break it down into the individual ingredients?

Depends what you want to achieve, I think.

Either way, I'd start by working out if it's the chicken or the kibble that she's reacting to.

If it is the kibble, she will have reacted to one (or more) of the individual ingredients in the kibble. If it's a common kibble ingredient that has upset her, you may find as you trial different dry foods you may start to have a suspicion about which ingredient it is (and can therefore pick future foods without that ingredient). I'd be keeping records of what's in each food you trial, so you can compare & contrast what is in each diet that she reacts to (or does well on).

Not sure if that helps.

Edited February 21, 2011 by Staranais

[JulesP]

Yep chicken had better be the next thing to test for.

I am not going to be able to test a heap of different kibbles anyhow as she pretty much will not eat kibble. She has been eating a small amount of Holistic Lamb & Rice (same as Black Hawk).

She had 3 different things last week and got a rash in days - the kibble, chicken necks & chicken & rice 4legs.

[Mason_Gibbs]

I have not attempted to add back any kibble, so far my dog cannot have chicken, beef, turkey, rice, pasta ( wheat) and it looks like the BBQ pork sausages I used as treats because I could not get any roo meatballs may be making him react too now!! I guess you could take the ingredient list and buy the stuff you can find and test it? When you are adding the meats etc back into the diet how many days do you do it for? i was told to do it for around 7/8 days by my derm and then stop feeding if we get excess itching or his tummy gets upset.

[JulesP]

i guess i buggered up by adding too many things back in. She has been having the 4legs rolls though the whole time that I was getting her tummy clear.

Her tummy can go from itchy to clear and back again within a couple of days.

She had a handful of kibble all of last week. 3 days of 4Legs for breakfast. Chicken necks for 2 dinners. So the only thing she had new for a period of 7 days would be the kibble.

Edited February 22, 2011 by JulesP

[Mason_Gibbs]

i guess i buggered up by adding too many things back in. She has been having the 4legs rolls though the whole time that I was getting her tummy clear.

Her tummy can go from itchy to clear and back again within a couple of days.

She had a handful of kibble all of last week. 3 days of 4Legs for breakfast. Chicken necks for 2 dinners. So the only thing she had new for a period of 7 days would be the kibble.

Yeah u really need to do each thing one at a time, are the 4 legs rolls processed meats? Some dogs cant get processed meats but are fine with the meat if it is not processed. Like for eg my dog can get ham but he cant get the processed BBQ sausages...

[zayda_asher]

my dog can get ham but he cant get the processed BBQ sausages...

Did you read the ingredient list for the sausages? Most will have fillers in them - they use a binder called "Rusk" that is often wheat, rice or soy

ETA: Additive Alert is a great book to get, as you can check on the numbers used for additives etc. on ingredient lists and check what they are made of

Edited February 22, 2011 by zayda_asher

[Mason_Gibbs]

my dog can get ham but he cant get the processed BBQ sausages...

Did you read the ingredient list for the sausages? Most will have fillers in them - they use a binder called "Rusk" that is often wheat, rice or soy

ETA: Additive Alert is a great book to get, as you can check on the numbers used for additives etc. on ingredient lists and check what they are made of

Thanks Zayder - I had not idea what the sausages had in that made him itch but now I can see why he cant have them, rice and wheat is a no no for him, I have not tried soy as yet on its own Hate having a dog with food allergies it makes getting treats very difficult

[Nekhbet]

what you're feeding is not an elimination diet. In fact it's a logistical nightmare. You add one new food in at a time and that is not in the space of a few days, its a couple of weeks between.

Find what she is good on raw wise and stick to that. Why do you need dog roll, dry food, this that and the other with an allergic dog?

[zayda_asher]

my dog can get ham but he cant get the processed BBQ sausages...

Did you read the ingredient list for the sausages? Most will have fillers in them - they use a binder called "Rusk" that is often wheat, rice or soy

ETA: Additive Alert is a great book to get, as you can check on the numbers used for additives etc. on ingredient lists and check what they are made of

Thanks Zayder - I had not idea what the sausages had in that made him itch but now I can see why he cant have them, rice and wheat is a no no for him, I have not tried soy as yet on its own Hate having a dog with food allergies it makes getting treats very difficult

The absolute best thing to make habit is to pick anything up and read the ingredient list first! Everyone thinks I'm mad these days because I can't pick up a single thing without looking at ingreedients or get something without asking the person behind the counter "what's in it?!" Saves a lot of drama though!!

The other thing you will often get with processed meat products, besides fillers or thickeners (which can also include maize for those corn allergic) is that they will bulk them with random other meats to use up the left overs, so that's another good way to sneak an allergen in if you aren't aware! (so a salaami may be mostly pork, which it says on the front lable "pork salaami, but read the ingreedients and it also has a little beef or lamb in it)

That absolute easiest thing I find for safe treats is to buy cheap cuts (whatever is on sale) of the meats they are safe with (elimination diet meat if they are still on ED) and boil it until it's just cooked through: this is a nice, tender, tasty, high value treat for them Just chop into little pieces, bag up and freeze.

Edit for spelling & clarity!

Edited February 22, 2011 by zayda_asher

[Mason_Gibbs]

my dog can get ham but he cant get the processed BBQ sausages...

Did you read the ingredient list for the sausages? Most will have fillers in them - they use a binder called "Rusk" that is often wheat, rice or soy

ETA: Additive Alert is a great book to get, as you can check on the numbers used for additives etc. on ingredient lists and check what they are made of

Thanks Zayder - I had not idea what the sausages had in that made him itch but now I can see why he cant have them, rice and wheat is a no no for him, I have not tried soy as yet on its own Hate having a dog with food allergies it makes getting treats very difficult

The absolute best thing to make habit is to pick anything up and read the ingredient list first! Everyone thinks I'm mad these days because I can't pick up a single thing without looking at ingreedients or get something without asking the person behind the counter "what's in it?!" Saves a lot of drama though!!

The other thing you will often get with processed meat products, besides fillers or thickeners (which can also include maize for those corn allergic) is that they will bulk them with random other meats to use up the left overs, so that's another good way to sneak an allergen in if you aren't aware!

That absolute easiest thing I find for safe treats is to buy cheap cuts (whatever is on sale) of the meats they are safe with (elimination diet meat if they are still on ED) and boil it until it's just cooked through: this is a nice, tender, tasty, high value treat for them Just chop into little pieces, bag up and freeze.

Edit for spelling!

I cant seem to get cheap cuts because he can only get roo and lamb really as I cant seem to get goat anywhere so I have been buying him extra mince and just making him cooked meatballs.

I looked at the label for the sausages but to just to make sure there was no other meat in there, I did not think to look at the other stuff!

[zayda_asher]

I cant seem to get cheap cuts because he can only get roo and lamb really as I cant seem to get goat anywhere so I have been buying him extra mince and just making him cooked meatballs.

I looked at the label for the sausages but to just to make sure there was no other meat in there, I did not think to look at the other stuff!

Give Oxford St Pet Meat Suppliers in Mt Hawthorn a try: they used to have Roo and Goat steaks and also Horse steaks 9444 1220

Also go into places like Coles at the end of the day on days like Saturday (when they really need to sell what's left before use by date) and they often have their meats reduced to sell - I buy bulk in things like lamb when it's on sale and freeze it to use

ETA: I used to microwave meatballs when I could only get mince, it's much easier than baking if you haven't tried that yet..

Edited February 22, 2011 by zayda_asher

[JulesP]

I'm a vego and would sausage as there is little meat in them well I wouldn't really but you get my point!!!

Have you tried the Happy Paws training treats Mason2009? They have roo and goat ones

[zayda_asher]

This is a good flow chart of how a proper elimination diet should work:

[JulesP]

Thanks for that zayda_asher. I guess going by that I didn't stuff it up as it does allow you to revert to the dog's original feeding pattern. So now a food allergy is established I need to find the cause.

[zayda_asher]

Thanks for that zayda_asher. I guess going by that I didn't stuff it up as it does allow you to revert to the dog's original feeding pattern. So now a food allergy is established I need to find the cause.

As long as you fed the novel diet for long enough to establish that there aren't other complicating factors, as listed on the chart. If you saw improvement, then I'd go back to the novel diet and retest every ingreedient individually... I personally feel it's better to KNOW what the dog is rsponding to, as this gives you more choices... Some people prefer just to stick to the novel diet, but if they develop intollerance / allergy to that, then you can have problems if you don't know what else you can use!

And remember that the dog can be allergic / intolerant of ANYTHING at all in the diet - so things like commercial foods (like the 4 legs) that have lots of things in them are a potential mine field... look at the ingreedient list on them and test those things as well (including all the veg).

good luck with it!

[zayda_asher]

It's probably also important to remember that food allergies (true food allergies, as opposed to intolerances or IBD etc) are the rarer form of allergies: if the dog is having adverse food reactions then it's likely that they will also have other allergies like atopy (air borne) and / or insect, as they are much more common... So you may see a reduction, but not a total improvement unless you also cover those bases. It's also not that common to just have one thing that causes Adverse food reaction, but more likely to be a few items.

[JulesP]

I originally did think it was a plant allergy as symptoms are a rash on her belly and nose. No upset tummy or itchy paws etc.

It wasn't until she skipped 2 meals and had a miraculous recovery that I thought 'food allergy'. Neocort was not helping either which is also an indicator of a food allergy.

Due to the speed of the rash coming and going I would say it is a allergy rather than an intolerance.

The 4Legs actually didn't have many ingredients in it. It was the kennel pack.

[zayda_asher]

I originally did think it was a plant allergy as symptoms are a rash on her belly and nose. No upset tummy or itchy paws etc.

It wasn't until she skipped 2 meals and had a miraculous recovery that I thought 'food allergy'. Neocort was not helping either which is also an indicator of a food allergy.

Due to the speed of the rash coming and going I would say it is a allergy rather than an intolerance.

Certainly sounds like it... My girl was an unsual one in that she had food allergies and only one atopic allergy when first diagnosed (a bad one though)... she developed more atopy as she aged. So it certainly can happen that there are out of the norm cases! I wouldn't discount that there may be other allergies though, even if they're mild.

The 4Legs actually didn't have many ingredients in it. It was the kennel pack.

Is that different ingreedient wise to the ones they sell in the shops? They balls they sell in the shop have at least 13 different things in them you would need to test, not including the vit and minerals.

[JulesP]

Is that different ingreedient wise to the ones they sell in the shops? They balls they sell in the shop have at least 13 different things in them you would need to test, not including the vit and minerals.

Yes different ingredients to the ones in the shops. They didn't have the coating on them to start with. Maybe 5 ingredients. Chicken, rice, guar gum, durum flour is what I can remember. They aren't listed on the website either.