Champions

[Astese]

CONZTRUCT you have hit the nail on the head "Petrol Ch is one who travels long distance to avoid competition where there may be Speciality dogs/bitches attending. Of course herding, tracking etc has to have specialised areas to trail an yes we have to travel long distances to those particular events. I was speaking of Breed Shows only. Sorry if I was not clear enough.

[capanash]

We have even seen an exhibitor enter retired dogs at country shows just to get a spread of numbers. Obviously not going if there was much competition.

I do think that a big problem is how easy it is to be granted a breeding prefix. Champion or not, there are many dogs of all breeds that are not worthy of being bred, just because a puppy is on full registration does not mean it will be a breeding quality adult.

[Aziah]

CONZTRUCT you have hit the nail on the head "Petrol Ch is one who travels long distance to avoid competition where there may be Speciality dogs/bitches attending. Of course herding, tracking etc has to have specialised areas to trail an yes we have to travel long distances to those particular events. I was speaking of Breed Shows only. Sorry if I was not clear enough.

What's this Specialty dogs/bitches business?! A quality, well bred, sound dog competes successfully in BOTH the Specialty and All Breeds ring. Whilst I understand there can be a tendency for division amongst GSD's (Specialty v's All Breeds) I also know that a good dog WILL win in both rings.

You should be more concerned about the GENERIC show dogs winning that are neither here no there!!!

Edited July 11, 2011 by Aziah

[conztruct]

CONZTRUCT you have hit the nail on the head "Petrol Ch is one who travels long distance to avoid competition where there may be Speciality dogs/bitches attending. Of course herding, tracking etc has to have specialised areas to trail an yes we have to travel long distances to those particular events. I was speaking of Breed Shows only. Sorry if I was not clear enough.

What's this Specialty dogs/bitches business?! A quality, well bred, sound dog competes successfully in BOTH the Specialty and All Breeds ring. Whilst I understand there can be a tendency for division amongst GSD's (Specialty v's All Breeds) I also know that a good dog WILL win in both rings.

You should be more concerned about the GENERIC show dogs winning that are neither here no there!!!

I didn't say "to avoid specialty dogs/bitches" - they were not my words - I said "to avoid competition". My words on the subject are that there are no such things a specialty or all breeds dogs, although I've heard the term used - I thought we were all just meant to be judged by one standard? I'd much rather have a dog that can do well in both because it is a good representation of the breed by the standard.

[Sandra777]

Unfortunately there are many breeds in which a dog which excels at specialist shows (or under specialist judges anyway) will be less than successful under all breeds judges. Yes, in many instances the big winning specialist dogs will also win at all breeds shows, but in the vast majority of cases in these breeds the biggest winning dogs at all breeds shows are conspiculously absent when the specialist comes to town.

If this the fault of the specialist judge or the allrounder judge is an argument that will never be answered to suit everyone, however in most cases in "my" breed in my experience it is definitely a case of the non-specialist judge putting up dogs which completely lack breed type which quickly get chucked out with the rubbish under more educated judges.

The generic show dogs abound unfortunately!

[Aziah]

CONZTRUCT you have hit the nail on the head "Petrol Ch is one who travels long distance to avoid competition where there may be Speciality dogs/bitches attending. Of course herding, tracking etc has to have specialised areas to trail an yes we have to travel long distances to those particular events. I was speaking of Breed Shows only. Sorry if I was not clear enough.

What's this Specialty dogs/bitches business?! A quality, well bred, sound dog competes successfully in BOTH the Specialty and All Breeds ring. Whilst I understand there can be a tendency for division amongst GSD's (Specialty v's All Breeds) I also know that a good dog WILL win in both rings.

You should be more concerned about the GENERIC show dogs winning that are neither here no there!!!

I didn't say "to avoid specialty dogs/bitches" - they were not my words - I said "to avoid competition". My words on the subject are that there are no such things a specialty or all breeds dogs, although I've heard the term used - I thought we were all just meant to be judged by one standard? I'd much rather have a dog that can do well in both because it is a good representation of the breed by the standard.

No, you said "avoid competition where there may be Speciality dogs/bitches attending" so therefore, avoiding dog shows where there might be Specialty dogs/bitches. If you just meant "competition" in general then you'd not have mentioned Specialty dogs?!

[Aziah]

Unfortunately there are many breeds in which a dog which excels at specialist shows (or under specialist judges anyway) will be less than successful under all breeds judges. Yes, in many instances the big winning specialist dogs will also win at all breeds shows, but in the vast majority of cases in these breeds the biggest winning dogs at all breeds shows are conspiculously absent when the specialist comes to town.

If this the fault of the specialist judge or the allrounder judge is an argument that will never be answered to suit everyone, however in most cases in "my" breed in my experience it is definitely a case of the non-specialist judge putting up dogs which completely lack breed type which quickly get chucked out with the rubbish under more educated judges.

The generic show dogs abound unfortunately!

Sad isn't it!

[Allerzeit]

CONZTRUCT you have hit the nail on the head "Petrol Ch is one who travels long distance to avoid competition where there may be Speciality dogs/bitches attending. Of course herding, tracking etc has to have specialised areas to trail an yes we have to travel long distances to those particular events. I was speaking of Breed Shows only. Sorry if I was not clear enough.

What's this Specialty dogs/bitches business?! A quality, well bred, sound dog competes successfully in BOTH the Specialty and All Breeds ring. Whilst I understand there can be a tendency for division amongst GSD's (Specialty v's All Breeds) I also know that a good dog WILL win in both rings.

You should be more concerned about the GENERIC show dogs winning that are neither here no there!!!

I didn't say "to avoid specialty dogs/bitches" - they were not my words - I said "to avoid competition". My words on the subject are that there are no such things a specialty or all breeds dogs, although I've heard the term used - I thought we were all just meant to be judged by one standard? I'd much rather have a dog that can do well in both because it is a good representation of the breed by the standard.

No, you said "avoid competition where there may be Speciality dogs/bitches attending" so therefore, avoiding dog shows where there might be Specialty dogs/bitches. If you just meant "competition" in general then you'd not have mentioned Specialty dogs?!

conztruct didn't say that - that was LuvMyGSD

conztruct said "that exhibitors would travel long distances to avoid competition in order try and get challenges" - she didn't mention specialities at all.

It was LuvMyGSD who said "avoid competition where there may be Speciality dogs/bitches attending"

[conztruct]

CONZTRUCT you have hit the nail on the head "Petrol Ch is one who travels long distance to avoid competition where there may be Speciality dogs/bitches attending. Of course herding, tracking etc has to have specialised areas to trail an yes we have to travel long distances to those particular events. I was speaking of Breed Shows only. Sorry if I was not clear enough.

What's this Specialty dogs/bitches business?! A quality, well bred, sound dog competes successfully in BOTH the Specialty and All Breeds ring. Whilst I understand there can be a tendency for division amongst GSD's (Specialty v's All Breeds) I also know that a good dog WILL win in both rings.

You should be more concerned about the GENERIC show dogs winning that are neither here no there!!!

I didn't say "to avoid specialty dogs/bitches" - they were not my words - I said "to avoid competition". My words on the subject are that there are no such things a specialty or all breeds dogs, although I've heard the term used - I thought we were all just meant to be judged by one standard? I'd much rather have a dog that can do well in both because it is a good representation of the breed by the standard.

No, you said "avoid competition where there may be Speciality dogs/bitches attending" so therefore, avoiding dog shows where there might be Specialty dogs/bitches. If you just meant "competition" in general then you'd not have mentioned Specialty dogs?!

I didn't mention specialty dogs - if you want to check my post this is what I wrote:

"I might have got it wrong but my impression of a "petrol" champion was not so much that travel had to be done to attend shows/trials but that exhibitors would travel long distances to avoid competition in order try and get challenges - that's certainly my impression."

LuvMyGST unfortunately took a little (ok a lot of) poetic licence which certainly took my comment way out of context - I don't mind direct quoting as long as that's what it is and you don't change the end of the sentence to suit what you're saying........ As I said, one standard being judged, so a good dog is a good dog - not a specialty or an all breeds dog. I'm certainly not going to argue this point with you Aziah, because I think we're on the same side. I don't have a lot of experience in specialty shows, I mainly show at all breeds because I've got at least 700k to travel for a specialty - I'm not adverse to either, it's just a logistical thing....although I've got to say that the only time I've heard the term "specialty quality dog" used was in a phrase after someone lost at an all breeds show saying that the judge didn't know anything and their dog who lost would beat the winner easy in a specialty show because theirs was a specialty quality dog - this may or may not be true but I think it was more a bad loser talking.

ETA: Thanks Allerzeit, I'll will have to try and use my manly typing voice in future though..... :p

Edited July 11, 2011 by conztruct

[Allerzeit]

ETA: Thanks Allerzeit, I'll will have to try and use my manly typing voice in future though..... :p

OOPS!! Sorry!

[Aziah]

CONZTRUCT - I didn't read the post correctly anyway - I thought what I was replying to was something LuvMyGSD had written (and as it turns out it was - because you didn't say what was quoted)

Anyhoo my reply stands (but in reply to what LuvMyGSD added)

[OSoSwift]

and my thing is my closest show is a smaller courty one. I don't go there to avoid the city dogs - because they are quite often there anyway - but because it is 3 hours closer!

If my dogs got their titles purely from those shows then They could be branded petrol champions who gained their titles against supposedly inferior dogs.

The other thing in WA is if there is a show in Albany or Geraldton (and other places) there are no shows anywhere else, so I couldn't avoid them even if I wanted to.

[Astese]

Conztruct you have hit the nail on the head. Petrol Champions are those who travel miles to avoid competing against multiple dogs/bitches some of whom are shown successfully a Speciality Shows. I know that Herding, Tracking etc need specific areas and that people who compete at these type of trails

are keen and travel long distances. I did not mean these to be classed as Petrol Champions what I was talking about are the Breed Showing ONLY.

[Libertybrook]

hhmmmm so does this mean that all our country dogs who mainly compete at country shows and have to travel hours and

100's kms to get to our LOCAL all breeds shows and often compete against so called "city faces" (and still manage to win mind you ;) )

and manage to get down to the city for "specialties" and win/place,

do you class us as petrol Champions ??

still dont understand the motives behind this thread and why was even started

:D ;)

Quote: LuvmyGSD....

:"The title Australian Champion is very easy to achieve and can be done so (especially in country areas)"

and dont think that we are a bunch of easy beats out here in the country either thats a very condescending attitude

Edited July 11, 2011 by Libertybrook

[SkySoaringMagpie]

and dont think that we are a bunch of easy beats out here in the country either

Some of the "country" line ups I've seen in the last 6 months definitely give the metro centres a run for their money. Yes there are some small Aggie shows with not a lot of competition but the big country shows around here like Yass and Goulbourn KCs pull in competitive quality dogs from everywhere - including Sydney.

[conztruct]

CONZTRUCT - I didn't read the post correctly anyway - I thought what I was replying to was something LuvMyGSD had written (and as it turns out it was - because you didn't say what was quoted)

Anyhoo my reply stands (but in reply to what LuvMyGSD added)

I totally agree with your reply - I just didn't want to get ticked off for that comment.......LOL.

I don't understand the fixation with dogs that have been shown at specialty. I've taken my dogs to show against many dogs who are really good examples of the breed (and have been group and show winners at all breeds) but haven't darkened the entry of a specialty ring - they're still awesome dogs, and awesome examples of the breed. Some of dogs that do well at specialties I would fear far less as opposition.

LuvMyGSD, do you really think that dogs that are shown at specialty shows or "city" shows are better examples of the breed than those who don't do specialties or show in the "country". In my experience after going to several larger shows in metropolitan areas, I've found that quantity doesn't always equal quality. I certainly know in my country area there are many dogs who hold their own or more than do so at larger city shows and specialty shows - there are also many dogs who beat these dogs at the country shows without having ever been to a metropolitan show or a specialty show - obviously they have plenty of merit and quality.

[emery]

and my thing is my closest show is a smaller courty one. I don't go there to avoid the city dogs - because they are quite often there anyway - but because it is 3 hours closer!

If my dogs got their titles purely from those shows then They could be branded petrol champions who gained their titles against supposedly inferior dogs.

The other thing in WA is if there is a show in Albany or Geraldton (and other places) there are no shows anywhere else, so I couldn't avoid them even if I wanted to.

Yeah we can't run from the big winners rofl when there is only one show in any one place at a time. i have been to albany am yet to get up to gero as it always falls when hubby is away but i intend to get the dogs out and our big winners go to these shows to so its not like we are going to run away from them.

And i agree a true quality type of dog will do well in both all breeds and specialty rings many in our breed do :D

[Havasneeze]

Do people keep going back with a dog if it is non-awarded a few times? I wouldn't.

I know several in my breed who have (same people with different dogs)

I have seen the SAME dog non-awarded at least 10 times. Each time the exhibitor asked why it was not given its Challenge, they were given the same answer. I am not sure if they kept going because it HAD been awarded in the past (and I truly hope not as it was a major and obvious fault) or if they didn't believe the judges. They had a bitch which was a nice example of the breed and were always awarded challenges for her so not sure why they kept going with the other one.....

I was going to mention this particular dog (yes, I know which one you mean) but I couldn't work out how to say it politely so I just kept quiet but in saying that, I did actually speak to the owner of said dog and she was of the opinion that whilst his coat was incorrect, she felt that he better conformed to the standard than some of the other dogs she was showing and this was the reason why she continued showing him All I could do was shake my head

[Sandra777]

I don't understand the fixation with dogs that have been shown at specialty.

Anyone can show at a speciality - the dogs that WIN are the ones that are being discussed

I've taken my dogs to show against many dogs who are really good examples of the breed (and have been group and show winners at all breeds) but haven't darkened the entry of a specialty ring - they're still awesome dogs, and awesome examples of the breed. Some of dogs that do well at specialties I would fear far less as opposition.

Under what judges though - to me THAT is the crunch question. A dog which wins multiple groups and in shows under all rounders SHOULD be a good enough example of the breed to win at the speciality shows, but how many of these awesome dogs you admire so much do this? No, not saying all dogs that win at all breeds shows can't win under a specialist nor am I saying dogs that win under specialists can't win under the all rounder, but when you have a dog which can be highly awarded under an all rounder but never under a specialist, or vice versa - who is "wrong"

in my country area there are many dogs who hold their own or more than do so at larger city shows and specialty shows - there are also many dogs who beat these dogs at the country shows without having ever been to a metropolitan show or a specialty show - obviously they have plenty of merit and quality.

Again, what are the creditials of the judges that are putting up these dogs. IF (and I am not saying this is the case, just IF) the dogs that are beating these major winners are doing so under judges who actually don't know much about the breed, then are these wins that can be considered valid or is this just another example of the generic show dog putting in an appearance?

A dog is a good dog whether it wins or not, a hundred Best In Show ribbons make no difference to the actual quality of the dog!

[conztruct]

I don't understand the fixation with dogs that have been shown at specialty.

Anyone can show at a speciality - the dogs that WIN are the ones that are being discussed

Agree - anyone can - but my comments were mainly around LuvMyGSD's statement that "Petrol Ch is one who travels long distance to avoid competition where there may be Speciality dogs/bitches attending." where they only referred to specialty dogs/bitches attending - that's what I was referring to as the fixation - why the distinction? I agree it would make more sense to fear the ones who win, but I'd also be concerned about the ones who do well at all breeds too

I've taken my dogs to show against many dogs who are really good examples of the breed (and have been group and show winners at all breeds) but haven't darkened the entry of a specialty ring - they're still awesome dogs, and awesome examples of the breed. Some of dogs that do well at specialties I would fear far less as opposition.

Under what judges though - to me THAT is the crunch question. A dog which wins multiple groups and in shows under all rounders SHOULD be a good enough example of the breed to win at the speciality shows, but how many of these awesome dogs you admire so much do this? No, not saying all dogs that win at all breeds shows can't win under a specialist nor am I saying dogs that win under specialists can't win under the all rounder, but when you have a dog which can be highly awarded under an all rounder but never under a specialist, or vice versa - who is "wrong"

Judges who are licenced as competent to judge that breed. I can only comment on my own breed where a lot of the ones who do well in all breeds also achieve at specialty level, however, given the distance and expense of travelling to a specialty from my area some aren't always shown at specialties. I don't think anyone is actually wrong in the scenario you spoke about - it's a different interpretation or it may be the same - we can't really say.

in my country area there are many dogs who hold their own or more than do so at larger city shows and specialty shows - there are also many dogs who beat these dogs at the country shows without having ever been to a metropolitan show or a specialty show - obviously they have plenty of merit and quality.

Again, what are the creditials of the judges that are putting up these dogs. IF (and I am not saying this is the case, just IF) the dogs that are beating these major winners are doing so under judges who actually don't know much about the breed, then are these wins that can be considered valid or is this just another example of the generic show dog putting in an appearance?

The same - a judge who is licenced as competent to judge the breed. Of course the wins are valid, it is official competition and the judges decision stands (whether we agree with it or not).

A dog is a good dog whether it wins or not, a hundred Best In Show ribbons make no difference to the actual quality of the dog!

Agree with you!! A dog can have any number or titles or ribbons but when I (or anyone else) look at it they make up their own mind what they think about it. I don't think you can discount or overrate performance in the specialty or all breed rings. The bottom line is that no matter what the type of show, the judge is licenced as a competent judge for that breed so they have at least met the minimum requirements to do so. If there is a question on that competence then the whole system needs an overhaul.

Hi Sandra - I hope I've answered all your valid questions - these are my perspective only so I'm not saying I'm right or wrong but it's just how I feel about it.