Maremma With Chooks

[Steve]

Have you tied him up so he cant get to them when you are not there? Bonding him and teching him is going to take you up to 12 weeks - whats the point of putting a muzzle on him when he will simply do what he's doing when it comes off?

when i'm not there, the chooks are in their run and he is outside. i'm worried about tethering as although there is plenty of areas he can't get to, the chooks can still get close enough for him to "play with".

Well if you have him outside and not with the chooks when you are not there that isnt going to help much in what you are attempting to do.

[Guest stuffthejoneses]

I'm sorry STJ's but I suspect this is why he was going so cheap to begin with. If he was that good with chooks, and at his age, he would be a valuable working dog and not an 'open to offers' type scenario. I hope you find some useful info here

he was sold as a pup and the people asked the breeder to hold him for 4 months and then changed their mind, thus his age and the cheap price, ps. who are you on byp. rf?

[Guest stuffthejoneses]

Have you tied him up so he cant get to them when you are not there? Bonding him and teching him is going to take you up to 12 weeks - whats the point of putting a muzzle on him when he will simply do what he's doing when it comes off?

when i'm not there, the chooks are in their run and he is outside. i'm worried about tethering as although there is plenty of areas he can't get to, the chooks can still get close enough for him to "play with".

Well if you have him outside and not with the chooks when you are not there that isnt going to help much in what you are attempting to do.

ok' so do you think i should tether him and see what happens? also with the muzzle, i was hoping that after time he wuold lose the drive to eat feathers.

Edited July 8, 2011 by stuffthejoneses

[persephone]

i'll do anything to not have him put down.

OK - listen to steve's advice - it is the voice of MUCH experience.

Also - perhaps there is someone on here, maremma wise , who can visit , and help you with training? having a maremma is not just putting a pup in with the chooks - it is training - and if YOU have no idea ..then your pup will certainly be behind the 8 ball ;) if he is not papered, then his breeder may just be taking the easy way .. it MAY be, also that this pup is not really suited to the job ? I guess it happens .....

Either way, you really do need a mentor ... and not just muddle along by yourself ...

[Guest stuffthejoneses]

my understanding is that these dogs bond to particular animals and if you sell the animals or move the dog away from his animals - you may need to start again with the bonding.

One of my friends had a maremma in with chooks, turkeys, ducks and goats with kids. It was fine. It used to be with the sheep but they sold its bonded ewe and so it wouldn't guard that flock anymore.

I don't know how you go about rebonding the dog. I know that my friends chooks and etc were locked up at night and the dog stopped foxes coming near the chook pens.

Maybe some of those big geese would help? They're much more assertive. Or ask the breeder. Although it reads like the breeder thinks this dog is a lost cause and can't be retrained. If the dog was "papered" (registered with the breed club and maybe the ANKC) it might still have been useful as a stud dog - maybe. Sometimes they can be rehomed as pets.

i thought they bonded with the whole flock.... i don't think they make good pets, especially in the suburbs.

[persephone]

Oh - and is the pup trained to be tethered? Do you know how to set up a safe tether? Even this seemingly simple act needs to be done with much attention to safety and security ;)

[Guest stuffthejoneses]

Oh - and is the pup trained to be tethered? Do you know how to set up a safe tether? Even this seemingly simple act needs to be done with much attention to safety and security ;)

the tether i have made is a star picket with a 4" s/s ring, a swivel, 5m of light smooth chain, another swivel and his collar clip. do i need more than that?? i've had him on it a few times. he has water, food and shelter he can reach, and nothing to tangle on.

[Steve]

my understanding is that these dogs bond to particular animals and if you sell the animals or move the dog away from his animals - you may need to start again with the bonding.

One of my friends had a maremma in with chooks, turkeys, ducks and goats with kids. It was fine. It used to be with the sheep but they sold its bonded ewe and so it wouldn't guard that flock anymore.

I don't know how you go about rebonding the dog. I know that my friends chooks and etc were locked up at night and the dog stopped foxes coming near the chook pens.

Maybe some of those big geese would help? They're much more assertive. Or ask the breeder. Although it reads like the breeder thinks this dog is a lost cause and can't be retrained. If the dog was "papered" (registered with the breed club and maybe the ANKC) it might still have been useful as a stud dog - maybe. Sometimes they can be rehomed as pets.

i thought they bonded with the whole flock.... i don't think they make good pets, especially in the suburbs.

They make great pets - in the suburbs as long as you understand the breed and live with it as part of the family.

[Steve]

Oh - and is the pup trained to be tethered? Do you know how to set up a safe tether? Even this seemingly simple act needs to be done with much attention to safety and security ;)

the tether i have made is a star picket with a 4" s/s ring, a swivel, 5m of light smooth chain, another swivel and his collar clip. do i need more than that?? i've had him on it a few times. he has water, food and shelter he can reach, and nothing to tangle on.

No thats fine.

[persephone]

That doesn't sound a bad setup for a tether just as long as there are no fences or anything he might try & jump yay - you thought of smooth chain!! and two swivels ! heavy linked smooth chain works really well - the bit of weight stops it tangling ;)

I usually give young'uns a BIG frozen bone . to keep them occupied for a while .

[Guest stuffthejoneses]

thank you very much steve, persephone, clyde, mrs rustybucket and others. i will tether him tomorrow when i'm not there and keep a very close eye on him at all times. i guess i just over estimated his capabilities. i will keep you up to date with his progress, and ask lots more questions :D

[espinay2]

'tasting blood' , to me , doesn't mean anything. The fun, for the dog, is in the chase/the noise, the effects . he is playing .. and it is fun!

Unfortunately, he can still injure/kill a chook with a muzzle on.

You can not safely leave a muzzle on an unsupervised dog . There are way too many things to go wrong :(

A muzzle also needs to be the correct type- and fitted properly.

Have you trained hom to wear a muzzle? It needs to be done as part of training , so the dog doesn't panic- or get in trouble trying to remove the muzzle .

i've only had him for 3 weeks, he has been in a paddock with chooks at his old home since he was a pup. that's what i don't understand. i personally don't like muzzles, but i'll do anything to not have him put down.

A couple of things. I am guessing he came from a situation where he was working with adult dogs? Adult dogs that knew their job? And likely did the job of keeping him in line too. He is a young dog - a bit like a teenage boy - and now he is on his own. He wants to play as young boys do and there is no leader there now to tell him the chickens are not his playthings despite the fact that they are flappy, fluffy, unpredictable and make funny high pitched noises. No one has been stopping him now the adult dogs are not there to tell him otherwise (and he has no other leader) so he doesnt know that he now can not do it. He is a kid and he is having fun with his new toys! So now YOU need to be his leader and tell him what is right and what is wrong. Yes, LGD's can work very well, but when young they can require guidance to know where the line is drawn and what behaviour is acceptable and what is not. If that guidance doesn't come from another dog, it has to come from you. I agree with Steve that a muzzle will not teach him anything. He will still be able to chase and pin a chicken and still have a game. Basically what he needs is supervision. And when you cant supervise to be in a position to lay down the law and teach him manners around your chooks by being his leader, you need to separate - either by a fence or a tether. Getting another pup will likely find you in a very similar situation when it hits its teenage period too. IMO this is more than likely not a dog that can't or won't work, it is a young immature dog that needs guidance and leadership on how to work. With the right guidance there is every chance that it will grow up to be a very effective guardian, but it needs that guidance now and it needs to have its opportunities to 'play' with the chooks removed so it doesn't keep thinking that that type of behaviour is fun and accepted. Best of luck!

[Guest stuffthejoneses]

'tasting blood' , to me , doesn't mean anything. The fun, for the dog, is in the chase/the noise, the effects . he is playing .. and it is fun!

Unfortunately, he can still injure/kill a chook with a muzzle on.

You can not safely leave a muzzle on an unsupervised dog . There are way too many things to go wrong :(

A muzzle also needs to be the correct type- and fitted properly.

Have you trained hom to wear a muzzle? It needs to be done as part of training , so the dog doesn't panic- or get in trouble trying to remove the muzzle .

i've only had him for 3 weeks, he has been in a paddock with chooks at his old home since he was a pup. that's what i don't understand. i personally don't like muzzles, but i'll do anything to not have him put down.

A couple of things. I am guessing he came from a situation where he was working with adult dogs? Adult dogs that knew their job? And likely did the job of keeping him in line too. He is a young dog - a bit like a teenage boy - and now he is on his own. He wants to play as young boys do and there is no leader there now to tell him the chickens are not his playthings despite the fact that they are flappy, fluffy, unpredictable and make funny high pitched noises. No one has been stopping him now the adult dogs are not there to tell him otherwise (and he has no other leader) so he doesnt know that he now can not do it. He is a kid and he is having fun with his new toys! So now YOU need to be his leader and tell him what is right and what is wrong. Yes, LGD's can work very well, but when young they can require guidance to know where the line is drawn and what behaviour is acceptable and what is not. If that guidance doesn't come from another dog, it has to come from you. I agree with Steve that a muzzle will not teach him anything. He will still be able to chase and pin a chicken and still have a game. Basically what he needs is supervision. And when you cant supervise to be in a position to lay down the law and teach him manners around your chooks by being his leader, you need to separate - either by a fence or a tether. Getting another pup will likely find you in a very similar situation when it hits its teenage period too. IMO this is more than likely not a dog that can't or won't work, it is a young immature dog that needs guidance and leadership on how to work. With the right guidance there is every chance that it will grow up to be a very effective guardian, but it needs that guidance now and it needs to have its opportunities to 'play' with the chooks removed so it doesn't keep thinking that that type of behaviour is fun and accepted. Best of luck!

hi, i am his leader. i assumed too that he had been with adult dogs, but this is not the case. he was in a paddock on his own with the flock. i'm going to tether him unless i'm there from now on. hopefully he won't touck the chooks when he's tied.

[Roxy Lady]

'tasting blood' , to me , doesn't mean anything. The fun, for the dog, is in the chase/the noise, the effects . he is playing .. and it is fun!

Unfortunately, he can still injure/kill a chook with a muzzle on.

You can not safely leave a muzzle on an unsupervised dog . There are way too many things to go wrong :(

A muzzle also needs to be the correct type- and fitted properly.

Have you trained hom to wear a muzzle? It needs to be done as part of training , so the dog doesn't panic- or get in trouble trying to remove the muzzle .

Honestly, i can't give advice on this breed of dog, i've had nothing to do with them. But i have a bull terrier who i believe is soo much different in the way they work to maremmas, so i'm not sure if this advice will even be relevent. But i caught Roxy in the middle of devouring one of the bantams, all i had to do was yell and she bolted, she knew she was in trouble, she tried to bolt but was trapped against a fence and i give her a smack with my thong on her rump (her first ever smack!!) and she ran to the front of the house, so i dragged her to the front lawn where she was eating the chook and put her nose in it and smacked her once on the nose, i tell ya what! She lets the chooks eat out of her bowl now!! I dont normally ever hit my dogs and she got quite a shock from it but i have to tell you it worked! I never hope to hit her or any of "my" dogs again but at the time it really worked, so i can't honestly say i did the wrong thing? Roxy has also tried to chase my mother few sheep and a small mob of cattle,but thankfully she has always responded to my quick loud yell at her.

Tasting blood, i'm not sure what to think!! Roxy has never tried to kill anymore chooks since and i know pig hunters who's dogs are trained to stick to wild pigs and not get confused with domestic pigs, sheep, cattle, kangaroo or goats.

I'm not in any way saying this is how to deal with a maremma, but just relaying my experience with my dogs and chooks

[Steve]

This is not behaviour I would expect from a Maremma of this age which has been working all his life in the situation you have described.

Usually with older dogs the job of teaching him he cant chase the chooks is done in a day - easy chase the chooks and the older dog will chase him and pin him - scare him to within an inch of his life and its all done and dusted. Without an older dog its takes a bit longer but either way once he is working whether he has been with older dogs or not by now he should know the difference and not be doing this. Its hard to believe that he has been working with chickens as described by the breeder.

He should have come in and acted as if he were afraid of the chickens and worked to win them over. However, he has a new environment and new mammals and routines to learn too. You cant be sure the behaviour you are seeing is what you think it is either. The home he has been in the chickens have been used to the dogs so they have been staying close and accepting his direction - assuming the info you have been given is true. It may be that he is still working out how far its safe for the chickens to wander and where his chickens would have stayed close to him and he didnt need to be concerned about what is normal because he knew what was normal in that environment he may be worried they are moving into danger so trying to bring them back rather than what you think you are seeing - him playing with them.

Maremma hate moving environments because they like to know the boundaries and what is normal and safe. He has only been there 3 weeks and unless you have given him time to know all he needs to know about his new place,what and who other than the chooks live there and what the threats my be he will be pretty stressed trying to work it all out .

Im not saying that you are not right and he isnt playing but dont be so sure either without taking a good look at it all. Either way he is missing something and I would have expected he act gentle and non threatening, definitely non playful etc until the chickens see him as no threat and choose to be in his company - even then never playful.by now at 7 months of age and a history of being in company of chooks he should know this. So dont be too easy on him if he chases really let him know he is out of line - in a paddock with older dogs he would be beaten up and have no doubt about the fact he was out of line - you need to do that too.

In the mean time consider what happened when you bought him in - whether he has had a chance to explore his territory and work out some of the things he needs to know to do his job effectively etc. It would have been easier if you had bought a couple of his chooks with him - not because he is bonded to them but because they know how to act around him and they would teach the other chooks.

[espinay2]

So dont be too easy on him if he chases really let him know he is out of line - in a paddock with older dogs he would be beaten up and have no doubt about the fact he was out of line - you need to do that too.

This above - agreed. He needs to know in no uncertain terms that the behaviour is not on and not something you will tolerate.

[persephone]

Its hard to believe that he has been working with chickens as described by the breeder.

*nods*

[budgiew]

I think this could be of help or relate to your situation..........When we got our rescue wolfhound x bullterrier aged 10 months.She would chase and kill wild birds like rossellas,doves ,pidgeons etc .One day caught her grabbing a bird and yelled at her.She stopped but had the tail feathers in her mouth so i took them out of her mouth and told her off again,The bird went under a bush.My hubby got the bird and sat it on his lap and patted it and said to her no bird,She looked bemused.He walked around with the bird for a while then put it back in the bush.For the next few weeks the bird trotted around our yard past the dog and our cat that wasn't fussed about catching birds,until it's feathers grew back enough for it to fly away.After that if she went near birds in the yard i would yell no bird,She never killed another bird after that.I think we took ownership of the birds in a way so she saw them as ours and was to leave them.Later we went into breeding budgies and she would chase stray cats out of the yard and protected the aviary.Once a baby budgie escaped into a tree and she alerted me by running to the tree and staring up at it until i could see it and hosed it down.Maybe if you try to walk around with a chook so he can associate chooks as belonging to you it may help.

[Guest stuffthejoneses]

'tasting blood' , to me , doesn't mean anything. The fun, for the dog, is in the chase/the noise, the effects . he is playing .. and it is fun!

Unfortunately, he can still injure/kill a chook with a muzzle on.

You can not safely leave a muzzle on an unsupervised dog . There are way too many things to go wrong :(

A muzzle also needs to be the correct type- and fitted properly.

Have you trained hom to wear a muzzle? It needs to be done as part of training , so the dog doesn't panic- or get in trouble trying to remove the muzzle .

i've only had him for 3 weeks, he has been in a paddock with chooks at his old home since he was a pup. that's what i don't understand. i personally don't like muzzles, but i'll do anything to not have him put down.

A couple of things. I am guessing he came from a situation where he was working with adult dogs? Adult dogs that knew their job? And likely did the job of keeping him in line too. He is a young dog - a bit like a teenage boy - and now he is on his own. He wants to play as young boys do and there is no leader there now to tell him the chickens are not his playthings despite the fact that they are flappy, fluffy, unpredictable and make funny high pitched noises. No one has been stopping him now the adult dogs are not there to tell him otherwise (and he has no other leader) so he doesnt know that he now can not do it. He is a kid and he is having fun with his new toys! So now YOU need to be his leader and tell him what is right and what is wrong. Yes, LGD's can work very well, but when young they can require guidance to know where the line is drawn and what behaviour is acceptable and what is not. If that guidance doesn't come from another dog, it has to come from you. I agree with Steve that a muzzle will not teach him anything. He will still be able to chase and pin a chicken and still have a game. Basically what he needs is supervision. And when you cant supervise to be in a position to lay down the law and teach him manners around your chooks by being his leader, you need to separate - either by a fence or a tether. Getting another pup will likely find you in a very similar situation when it hits its teenage period too. IMO this is more than likely not a dog that can't or won't work, it is a young immature dog that needs guidance and leadership on how to work. With the right guidance there is every chance that it will grow up to be a very effective guardian, but it needs that guidance now and it needs to have its opportunities to 'play' with the chooks removed so it doesn't keep thinking that that type of behaviour is fun and accepted. Best of luck!

hi, i am his leader. i assumed too that he had been with adult dogs, but this is not the case. he was in a paddock on his own with the flock. i'm going to tether him unless i'm there from now on. hopefully he won't touck the chooks when he's tied.

well, charlie spent the whole day tethered yesterday. to make it positive, rather than seeming like punishment, i brushed him while he was tethered. he loved it and didn't touch one all day except to gently put a paw one ones back while looking at me. just as he's seen me pet them. i still told him no and he walked away. he even laid there while they attacked his new bone, i took it off them and put it away until they went to bed. well, thats it for now, keep you posted. i know there's still a long way to go.

[persephone]

Good start Just make sure he has plenty of running around off the tether - he is young ,and needs the exercise/stimulation .

he wasn't imitating you petting the chooks - pawing like that is a precursor to play ;) he was testing you!!..and you let him actually touch the chook . NEXT time - warn him as you see that first look/ movement!