The Look At That Game

[dandybrush]

hmm im confused but i dont understand the difference between the look at that and the look at me game arent you working for the same end result neway?

[Weasels]

What you are describing is Look At me not Look at That...two completely different games.

I have just made a cuppa & am typing out the quote from Leslie McDevitt Author of Control Unleashed. It wont allow me to cut & paste

Quote...this game is a simple behavior chain of 2 "orienting" behaviors. The dog looks at a certain stimulus in the environment & then turns back to you. Rather than just using a Watch Me cue, the LAT game actively teaches dogs to read stimuli such as running dogs as an environmental cue to automatically reconnect with you. Once you have taught your dog this game, you can relax & let the environment do the work for you. Instead of you having to react once the dog has noticed something & ask your dog to watch you when he's already in the process of reacting, we can flip the tables here & teach your dog to tell you when he sees something. In other words this game changes the "conversation"

Thanks for the clarification Sheena, that's why I suggested checking out the book too

I must admit I conflate the two. For consistent stimuli like our other dog I expect the behaviour 'on cue', but he does check in anyway since he's a stomach on legs.

But I use the same command when we are out and there is something like a bike going past or are running screaming children and I try to train coming up and checking in with me, followed by a 'heel' if it's something to stay away from, or an 'off-you-go' if it's, say, a friendly dog to go play with.

But as I said, I just adapted this to deal with my own dog's issues, YMMV and if problems persist consult a professional

ETA: I think a bit of the confusion is also that Sheena was originally talking about motion reactiveness and Dandybrush was talking about breaking concentration, which are a bit different. My boy has both problems, so I use the more prolonged distraction, initiated by a "whosthat" for his obsessiveness. I use offering an alternative behaviour and the doggy version of cognitive behaviour therapy (via treats) for addressing his desire to run off and bark at fast-moving things.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Weasels

[megan_]

hmm im confused but i dont understand the difference between the look at that and the look at me game arent you working for the same end result neway?

the difference is subtle...

"Look at me" means 'dont' look at the person/dog that scares/excites you, look at me instead'. The dog might still think that the other thing is scary/exciting and it is working against its natural instinct to look.

"Look at that" means 'look at the scarey person/dog that excites you, then I'll give you a treat. See? The scary thing isn't that bad etc'. The dog gets rewarded for looking and staying calm and doesn't work against its natural instinct to look.

[Weasels]

"There is a dog running over there. Did you know about this"

too cute

[sheena]

What you are describing is Look At me not Look at That...two completely different games.

I have just made a cuppa & am typing out the quote from Leslie McDevitt Author of Control Unleashed. It wont allow me to cut & paste

Quote...this game is a simple behavior chain of 2 "orienting" behaviors. The dog looks at a certain stimulus in the environment & then turns back to you. Rather than just using a Watch Me cue, the LAT game actively teaches dogs to read stimuli such as running dogs as an environmental cue to automatically reconnect with you. Once you have taught your dog this game, you can relax & let the environment do the work for you. Instead of you having to react once the dog has noticed something & ask your dog to watch you when he's already in the process of reacting, we can flip the tables here & teach your dog to tell you when he sees something. In other words this game changes the "conversation"

ETA: I think a bit of the confusion is also that Sheena was originally talking about motion reactiveness and Dandybrush was talking about breaking concentration, which are a bit different. My boy has both problems, so I use the more prolonged distraction, initiated by a "whosthat" for his obsessiveness. I use offering an alternative behaviour and the doggy version of cognitive behaviour therapy (via treats) for addressing his desire to run off and bark at fast-moving things.

It is also used for breaking concentration & I again quote from Leslie McDevitt " Although many dogs brought to me for motion-reactivity are Border collies & other herding breeds, anydog can be triggered by seeing another dog running, doing obstacles or tugging in class. To teach dogs that they can in fact see this type of movement without reacting to it (whether the reaction is simply staring with a strong eye & getting "stuck"or actually lunging, barking & trying to chase) I use....the Look at That Game. " End of quote.

[Weasels]

It is also used for breaking concentration & I again quote from Leslie McDevitt " Although many dogs brought to me for motion-reactivity are Border collies & other herding breeds, anydog can be triggered by seeing another dog running, doing obstacles or tugging in class. To teach dogs that they can in fact see this type of movement without reacting to it (whether the reaction is simply staring with a strong eye & getting "stuck"or actually lunging, barking & trying to chase) I use....the Look at That Game. " End of quote.

Sounds like a helpful article, I might have to order the magazine to keep it on hand....then of course I will have to buy some other doggy stuff to justify the shipping charge.... ;)

[Pretty Miss Emma]

It's so nice to hear you talking about dogs that do the same thing as my little munchkin. Having a reactive dog can be a bit isolating sometimes!

But we also play LAT. It is brilliant!! I saw success from the moment we started playing and she has been getting better and better. Sometimes we have a slip up, so we just move back a step. But we now have whole walks where there are dogs running, barking at us behind gates, etc and she doesn't react.

I'm also loving the "hey, I looked at it. HEY, I looked at it. Can't you see me looking at it?!" that she is starting to give me (obviously only in situations where I know she can cope with the look twice before getting a reward!).

[sheena]

It is also used for breaking concentration & I again quote from Leslie McDevitt " Although many dogs brought to me for motion-reactivity are Border collies & other herding breeds, anydog can be triggered by seeing another dog running, doing obstacles or tugging in class. To teach dogs that they can in fact see this type of movement without reacting to it (whether the reaction is simply staring with a strong eye & getting "stuck"or actually lunging, barking & trying to chase) I use....the Look at That Game. " End of quote.

Sounds like a helpful article, I might have to order the magazine to keep it on hand....then of course I will have to buy some other doggy stuff to justify the shipping charge.... ;)

If you buy the digital copy, there is no shipping charge, you download it to your computer for just $5.00. It's the August 2011 which has the article in...here's the link

http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=2892&ParentCat=357

[Weasels]

If you buy the digital copy, there is no shipping charge, you download it to your computer for just $5.00. It's the August 2011 which has the article in...here's the link

http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=2892&ParentCat=357

Excellent thank you!

[SammieS]

I did some more training last night with Asti and was wondering if those who are having some successs with this could reply. What is the order for looking, using the 'look' cue word, clicking and treating? I think that I'm getting the cue, click and treat out of the wrong order...

Do you (whilst the dog is staying under threashold) wait for dog to look at something then click then treat - once she gets used to this move to - wait for dog to look at something then say 'look' then click then treat? or do you just wait for dog to look at something then say look then click then treat all in one go?

Also, has anyone else found if they use the whole "look at that" sentence and say it too excitedly it puts the dog overthreashold?! I have to make sure my "look" cue is very calm and monotone at the moment otherwise it engages her too much.

[megan_]

I did some more training last night with Asti and was wondering if those who are having some successs with this could reply. What is the order for looking, using the 'look' cue word, clicking and treating? I think that I'm getting the cue, click and treat out of the wrong order...

Do you (whilst the dog is staying under threashold) wait for dog to look at something then click then treat - once she gets used to this move to - wait for dog to look at something then say 'look' then click then treat? or do you just wait for dog to look at something then say look then click then treat all in one go?

Also, has anyone else found if they use the whole "look at that" sentence and say it too excitedly it puts the dog overthreashold?! I have to make sure my "look" cue is very calm and monotone at the moment otherwise it engages her too much.

okay - I think you're mixing two games up. Typically, for "look at that" you don't use the clicker (if you follow Leslie's stuff to the tee).

To keep it really simple, the order is:

i) Dog looks at something

ii) At that instant, before they get roused, you say "Look at that" (ie it is a marker, not a cue - the difference is important, you aren't actually telling your dog to look at something, just marking that it has). Now if you want, you can use the clicker instead of saying "look at that", but you only use one or the other. I personally don't use the clicker for this because I don't always have it on me and I like to have my other hand free if something goes wrong. I also use the clicker for free shaping so I don't want the clicker to mark calm.

iii) Whjen you're starting out, as soon as you've said "look at that", shove a treat in their mouth. You don't have to wait for them to do anything (eg look at you), just give them the treat. Repeat the game again each time they look at something. Don't be stingy - you want to build up a conditioned response, so you need to repeat it many times.

iv) After you've played the game a few times, add a micro-second pause between steps ii) and iii). If your dog has the hang of it, he will look at you after you say "look at that". Then treat (ie the dog is being treated for looking at you and remaining calm).

If your dog gets very excited, say "look at that" in a low, calm voice.

[**Super_Dogs**]

It is also used for breaking concentration & I again quote from Leslie McDevitt " Although many dogs brought to me for motion-reactivity are Border collies & other herding breeds, anydog can be triggered by seeing another dog running, doing obstacles or tugging in class. To teach dogs that they can in fact see this type of movement without reacting to it (whether the reaction is simply staring with a strong eye & getting "stuck"or actually lunging, barking & trying to chase) I use....the Look at That Game. " End of quote.

Sounds like a helpful article, I might have to order the magazine to keep it on hand....then of course I will have to buy some other doggy stuff to justify the shipping charge.... ;)

If you buy the digital copy, there is no shipping charge, you download it to your computer for just $5.00. It's the August 2011 which has the article in...here's the link

http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=2892&ParentCat=357

Thanks I decided to get the subscription for the year. Went with the digital, even though I prefer an actual magazine, as it is such s great price!!!

[sheena]

I did some more training last night with Asti and was wondering if those who are having some successs with this could reply. What is the order for looking, using the 'look' cue word, clicking and treating? I think that I'm getting the cue, click and treat out of the wrong order...

Do you (whilst the dog is staying under threashold) wait for dog to look at something then click then treat - once she gets used to this move to - wait for dog to look at something then say 'look' then click then treat? or do you just wait for dog to look at something then say look then click then treat all in one go?

Also, has anyone else found if they use the whole "look at that" sentence and say it too excitedly it puts the dog overthreashold?! I have to make sure my "look" cue is very calm and monotone at the moment otherwise it engages her too much.

okay - I think you're mixing two games up. Typically, for "look at that" you don't use the clicker (if you follow Leslie's stuff to the tee).

To keep it really simple, the order is:

i) Dog looks at something

ii) At that instant, before they get roused, you say "Look at that" (ie it is a marker, not a cue - the difference is important, you aren't actually telling your dog to look at something, just marking that it has). Now if you want, you can use the clicker instead of saying "look at that", but you only use one or the other. I personally don't use the clicker for this because I don't always have it on me and I like to have my other hand free if something goes wrong. I also use the clicker for free shaping so I don't want the clicker to mark calm.

iii) Whjen you're starting out, as soon as you've said "look at that", shove a treat in their mouth. You don't have to wait for them to do anything (eg look at you), just give them the treat. Repeat the game again each time they look at something. Don't be stingy - you want to build up a conditioned response, so you need to repeat it many times.

iv) After you've played the game a few times, add a micro-second pause between steps ii) and iii). If your dog has the hang of it, he will look at you after you say "look at that". Then treat (ie the dog is being treated for looking at you and remaining calm).

If your dog gets very excited, say "look at that" in a low, calm voice.

Sorry ...but the article I am reading of Leslies called "the LAT Game"...she DOES use the clicker & I will quote a bit more of the article, though I have run out of

(Quote)...she uses an example...I got out a stick...& held it out, clicking when he looked towards it. At the sound of the click, he turned back to me expectantly & got his treat. When I knew he would readily look toward the stick, I started asking him "Where is it?" ..my LAT cue. (end of quote)...she then goes on to extend it to the dog looking at it's mum. etc. etc.& other examples too. She doesn't use the clicker when teaching the dog to "Take a Breath"

The cue I use is as if I am talking to a child & that keeps my voice happy. I will say things like...is that Albert barking, or, look at that little white fluffy, or, is that a cow, or, look at that dog being silly....she immediately turns her head in the direction I am looking..I click...she turns back to me & I treat.

[megan_]

sorry - I was sure when I read the book (a bit of an old copy?) there was no clicker? Anyhoo, my dogs have learned the game all the same

[Weasels]

Also, has anyone else found if they use the whole "look at that" sentence and say it too excitedly it puts the dog overthreashold?! I have to make sure my "look" cue is very calm and monotone at the moment otherwise it engages her too much.

I just had a thought on being over-threshold too.

If something out of my control does happen, like a kid barreling along the path towards us on a skateboard, I just shove as many treats as I can lay my hands on into my dog's mouth without worrying about any cue words. The intention is to short-circuit the extreme reaction long enough for the stimulus to pass, so the dog doesn't get a chance to practice the unwanted behaviour. Then we can go back to the threshold level we were at before without having (potentially) sabotaged the cue word in a too-exciting situation.

[sheena]

sorry - I was sure when I read the book (a bit of an old copy?) there was no clicker? Anyhoo, my dogs have learned the game all the same

Important thing is, no matter which way you teach your dog, with a clicker or voice marker, it is a lot of fun for you & your dog I was simply pointing out that she does use the clicker to teach it. My dog is having lots of fun with it & I now find I have to make my voice more exciting to get her to look. I can almost hear her saying..."OK ...Mum... I will look, but just quickly, as I am far more interested in you than that dog running & barking" I can't believe the change in her since I have started playing the game.

[B-Q]

Quinn is alsovery motion reactive, I just finished reading control unleashed and seriously could hug Leslie McDevitt if I ever met her. So many times when I feel like Quinn is just getting nowhere and I'm failing her its so nice to read that is a common problem in performance dogs, especially BC's and that is fixable.

6 months ago Quinn couldn't be in the vicinity of another dog tugging without loosing her shit. Lunging, barking and no chance of concentration, and distance didnt't seem to matter. Now she's at the point where she can have a dog tugging madly only a few metres away and glance at it and look back to me.

Her other issues are dogs running flat out (like after a toy), taking a tunnel or occasionally a contact obstacle.

Last week at agility she did great, dogs in the class next to us doing tunnels didn't even bother her, I was ready for an hour of fighting with her seeing as we had 12 dogs in our class but she did really well, only reacted a few times and when she did she recovered very quickly.

The other things I took from the book was to teach her to relax, she not very cuddly so I had to do quite a few sessions to get her to learn that lying still on her side was a trick she could offer, now she often pulls it in agility class to get a treat. Which means we take regular breaks, move away a bit, relax her on her side and stroke her gently for 30seconds - 1 minute before going back to class.

Reading control unleashed helped me understand the game better, like when to put a cue on it. its hard as we don't have a class designed around reactive dogs so I am more or less throwing Quinn in the deep end by expecting to play with dogs running flat out from the beginning, instead of a dog heeling, then trotting, then running slowly, then sprinting.

[sheena]

So glad that Quinn is coming along so well...doesn't it make you feel good, when such a change comes over them. All I have to do now is to teach her not to get distracted by my OH when he is working at the trials Leslie summed my dog up completely when she said "he could not go to trials because when he saw another dog running, he turned into a Tasmanian Devil...if that sounds familiar, then I wrote this article for you" ...end of quote. That's the exact description we used to give our BC girl...behaving like a Tasmanian Devil.

[B-Q]

I read that article aswell and that quote made me smile. I've been asking every trainer thats met her since she was 7 months old and its been really hard to get advice.

We have agility tonight aswell so we'll see how we go.

[corvus]

You can put LAT on cue and use it to warn your dog when something upsetting is coming. This is one of the most useful things about LAT. You can say "Look At That dog that just came around the corner!" and your dog can both see it before it comes too close and does the sudden appearance out of nowhere thing, and they have a rule structure for dealing with it.

The CU_Dogs yahoo list is operating at the moment and it's freaking awesome. Leslie herself answers a lot of questions, and there are other very experienced trainers to offer their perspectives. The applications of LAT and other CU games are endless. You have to have read the books and/or watched the DVDs before you're allowed to post, though.