sheena Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 (edited) I have a BC dog who is "motion reactive" meaning that she easily gets distracted in the ring by other dogs running, barking, tugging, & whatever & lunges & spins while waiting her turn to run. One trial back I decided to give the "Look at That" game a go & armed myself with lots of yummy treats & a clicker. I felt she was coming along well, but didn't continue it because a few people including our club trainers & other well meaning people told me I was daft & had never heard of such a game...."It's Look at MEEEEE" they kept telling me. The August edition of Clean Run included an article on the LAT game & I decided to give it another go at this weekends trial. We had 8 runs over the weekend & all but one run she tried her hardest & we walked away with 3 "Q's & 6 clean runs. The only event she got distracted in was when my OH was on the scribing table & she kept looking around for him So maybe I can play the game to overcome this She is still a long way from being motion reactive proofed, but I feel she is definately a "work in progress" & I have printed out the article to hand to those at my club who thought I was daft. :D ETA... I think the "Click to Calm" game would be very similar. Edited August 1, 2011 by sheena Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiggy Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 What is the look at that game? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted August 1, 2011 Author Share Posted August 1, 2011 To put it briefly, it involves starting off with small distractions & when the dog looks at, but before it has time to react, you click & dog turns to you for a treat. So basically the clicker is being used as a marker for (a) looking & (b) not reacting & is also being used as an interupter. You gradually increase the distractions & if you click & the dog does not respond, you know you have made it too hard for the dog & must move back. The idea eventually, is when you see eg. a dog running, you can say "look at that silly dog", your dog looks & immediately turns back to you for a treat. You know the light bulb has gone off when your dog offers a look at the distraction & turns of it's own accord back to you ie...the dog is telling YOU to LAT. I probably havn't explained it real well & it is a little more involved, for instance in the article she shows you how to get the dog to take deep breaths & relax. It comes from the "Control Unleashed" book & DVD, but the article is in this months Cleanrun Magazine if you can get hold of it. I wish I could copy & paste without violating copyright laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 I LOVE this game. When we first got my younger boy he was obsessed with watching our other dog, especially if she was being intense. You could put a treat on his tongue and he still wouldn't move a muscle. We built up a "Weaz, who's that?" then click & treat and it's really turned him around. Now I can distract him from other dog, bikes, even sheep! It's been great for his reactivity and focus. I'm glad you gave it another go Sheena! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 I had some success with this last weekend at Retrieving practice. Geordie thinks that when other dogs are retrieving it must be his turn too! It's very good for giving an idea of distance needed away from the distraction as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandybrush Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 I LOVE this game. When we first got my younger boy he was obsessed with watching our other dog, especially if she was being intense. You could put a treat on his tongue and he still wouldn't move a muscle. We built up a "Weaz, who's that?" then click & treat and it's really turned him around. Now I can distract him from other dog, bikes, even sheep! It's been great for his reactivity and focus. I'm glad you gave it another go Sheena! sorry to butt in on this thread would this training work on my pup to get her focus off my older dog? when im throwing toys and she is just focused on him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted August 1, 2011 Author Share Posted August 1, 2011 I LOVE this game. When we first got my younger boy he was obsessed with watching our other dog, especially if she was being intense. You could put a treat on his tongue and he still wouldn't move a muscle. We built up a "Weaz, who's that?" then click & treat and it's really turned him around. Now I can distract him from other dog, bikes, even sheep! It's been great for his reactivity and focus. I'm glad you gave it another go Sheena! sorry to butt in on this thread would this training work on my pup to get her focus off my older dog? when im throwing toys and she is just focused on him? Yes...definately, but you need to start off with just slight distractions & build it up...set your pup up for success not failure . You could possibly just start off with having someone walk your other dog past him, as soon as he turns to look, click & treat. But you need to have your pup tuned into what the clicker is all about before you start....very important that he understands that when you click, he immediately gets a reward. Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 (edited) I use this game on my dog aggressive dog and also my puppy who gets distracted easily. It's important to work sub-threshold. The book: Control Unleased is what you'll want to read to learn more about the method. Edited August 1, 2011 by MEH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandybrush Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 thanx sheena i might look into that book MEH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 sorry to butt in on this thread would this training work on my pup to get her focus off my older dog? when im throwing toys and she is just focused on him? Dandybrush, that is exactly what my boy was doing, cos my girl is very fetch-obsessed. He still does the intense kelpie stare on her sometimes but now I can get his attention away if I need it. When we are out playing fetch with both dogs now he will wander off and sniff, meet other dogs or check in on me probably 50% of the time, so much less obsessive. As I typed this he started off focussed on her, but now he is lying next to me almost asleep, while she is still desperately trying to get me to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SammieS Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 The book: Control Unleased is what you'll want to read to learn more about the method. I have this book and am halfway through. I'm attempting the Look At That game but I find it hard to have distance from distractions and enough opportunity to practice with Asti during the week - not just on weekends... I'd love to find a place where you can go with other responsible dog owners and have the opportunity of having dogs around but with distance and know that when your confidence builds you can try it off the lead (still with distance) and know that the other dogs aren't going to run up and get in your dogs face because they're also there for training not for crazy energy release zoomies that will put you back to step 1 all over again. I find that dog parks and off lead beaches are terrible for misbehaved dogs and therefore its not the right environment for building up the LAT training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandybrush Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 sammie if you want to meet up for a "training" day i live in brisbane and would have no problems meeting you at a park and doing some training with/around you weasels, so how did you start? would you just click and reward when he looked at her? anytime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 (edited) sammie if you want to meet up for a "training" day i live in brisbane and would have no problems meeting you at a park and doing some training with/around you weasels, so how did you start? would you just click and reward when he looked at her? anytime? Oh no he looks at her no problem, I wanted him to look at me. My boy already had a basis in clicker training, so I got my OH to play fetch with my girl at home and I would sit next to Weasel. When he seemed to relax even a bit, I would say very quickly and excitedly "Whosthat!" and he would snap his head around to me for just a second, and I would click and treat that. I just kept doing that to get longer looks to me and when he was even more intense, then moved it out to the park, then to agility where there is a lot of excitement and fun dogs, then finally to herding where there are just the most stimulating things in the world for a kelpie, sheep. Once he started to offer more attention, I also added some other tricks after the first look so he would forget about the other dog for a few seconds, then a few minutes, then he'd offer the attention unsolicited. It might not be the textbook method (I haven't read control unleashed yet), so I'd recommend checking that out, but it's how we muddled through :D Edited August 1, 2011 by Weasels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandybrush Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 (edited) thanx weasels sounds like it worked for you, also sounds like something i could do did you use really good treats eg chicken or just plain like the dogs kibble? Edited August 1, 2011 by dandybrush Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 (edited) thanx weasels sounds like it worked for you, also sounds like something i could do did you use really good treats eg chicken or just plain like the dogs kibble? My usual treat is the 4legs brand beef/chicken/lamb, pasta and vegie balls from the supermarket, which I break into quarters. I would probably start with a high value treat to try to set your dog up for success like MEH and Sheena said, then once she's getting the hang of it you could mix it up a bit. Edited August 1, 2011 by Weasels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandybrush Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 yep k thanx weasels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SammieS Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 sammie if you want to meet up for a "training" day i live in brisbane and would have no problems meeting you at a park and doing some training with/around you Hi Dandy! That sounds like fun - and it would be a good opportunity for Asti to learn about distance and distraction... We are seeing our trainer this Sunday and we are going to talk about how to approach new dogs and for Asti to learn about reading dogs so this would be a great opportunity! I'll PM you when I know more and when I know Asti is ready - as we want it to be a positive experience for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandybrush Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 Hi Dandy! That sounds like fun - and it would be a good opportunity for Asti to learn about distance and distraction... We are seeing our trainer this Sunday and we are going to talk about how to approach new dogs and for Asti to learn about reading dogs so this would be a great opportunity! I'll PM you when I know more and when I know Asti is ready - as we want it to be a positive experience for everyone. ok yep, i have 2 dogs, let me know who you would prefer me to bring, if i could bring my pup it will be good distracion/leave it training also for her, but she would prob pester asti if let off leash together. my older boy is more likely to ignore asti (he'll be to busy peeing on everything or playing with his ball ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SammieS Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 Hi Dandy! That sounds like fun - and it would be a good opportunity for Asti to learn about distance and distraction... We are seeing our trainer this Sunday and we are going to talk about how to approach new dogs and for Asti to learn about reading dogs so this would be a great opportunity! I'll PM you when I know more and when I know Asti is ready - as we want it to be a positive experience for everyone. ok yep, i have 2 dogs, let me know who you would prefer me to bring, if i could bring my pup it will be good distracion/leave it training also for her, but she would prob pester asti if let off leash together. my older boy is more likely to ignore asti (he'll be to busy peeing on everything or playing with his ball ) They're great options! but probably best to start with Raz :D I'll keep you posted on Asti's training! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted August 1, 2011 Author Share Posted August 1, 2011 (edited) sammie if you want to meet up for a "training" day i live in brisbane and would have no problems meeting you at a park and doing some training with/around you weasels, so how did you start? would you just click and reward when he looked at her? anytime? Oh no he looks at her no problem, I wanted him to look at me. My boy already had a basis in clicker training, so I got my OH to play fetch with my girl at home and I would sit next to Weasel. When he seemed to relax even a bit, I would say very quickly and excitedly "Whosthat!" and he would snap his head around to me for just a second, and I would click and treat that. I just kept doing that to get longer looks to me and when he was even more intense, then moved it out to the park, then to agility where there is a lot of excitement and fun dogs, then finally to herding where there are just the most stimulating things in the world for a kelpie, sheep. Once he started to offer more attention, I also added some other tricks after the first look so he would forget about the other dog for a few seconds, then a few minutes, then he'd offer the attention unsolicited. It might not be the textbook method (I haven't read control unleashed yet), so I'd recommend checking that out, but it's how we muddled through :D What you are describing is Look At me not Look at That...two completely different games. I have just made a cuppa & am typing out the quote from Leslie McDevitt Author of Control Unleashed. It wont allow me to cut & paste Quote...this game is a simple behavior chain of 2 "orienting" behaviors. The dog looks at a certain stimulus in the environment & then turns back to you. Rather than just using a Watch Me cue, the LAT game actively teaches dogs to read stimuli such as running dogs as an environmental cue to automatically reconnect with you. Once you have taught your dog this game, you can relax & let the environment do the work for you. Instead of you having to react once the dog has noticed something & ask your dog to watch you when he's already in the process of reacting, we can flip the tables here & teach your dog to tell you when he sees something. In other words this game changes the "conversation" ...end of quote ETA...more (I now have a 2nd Quote...When a motion-triggered dog sees a trigger, such as a dog running an agility course, the handler typically asks the dog to pay attention to her & the dog typically responds "That would be very hard for me right now since my instincts have taken over & I really can't hear you" LAT changes this conversation so when the dog sees another dog running he immediately turns to his handler & says "There is a dog running over there. Did you know about this" Reframing the trigger into something that your dog can "point out" to you & then collect a "finder's fee" for, keeps him in an operant or thinking state of mind when he sees that trigger, rather than his immediately going into react mode or chase mode. Trying to make a dog only look at you around things that trigger an instinctive response can be difficult & frustrating. I think it is both safer & a lot more pleasant for both members of the team if the dog learns that he can see those things & stay thoughtful & play a game with his handler instead of answering the call of the wild" ...end of Quote Hope this explains the confusion over the 2 completely different games. ;) Edited August 1, 2011 by sheena Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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