Why Do People Feel That A Tug Game

[J...]

Next time I talk to a judge I will ask them about it. If they go out of the ring to deliver the reward, that doesn't break the rule. May take a lot of time though, which you don't get that much of for a course. Not sure how it would work re start lines though? (something that was stated as what a lot of people would use it for) as you want to reward the stay, which normally means rewarding in position. Contacts as well, many people would reward in position for 2o2o.

You can still reward in position with a toy, even a non-tug toy. Darcy loves to "catch" - helps if you are a good throw ;)

Can you use an enclosed food pouch like a jackpot toy? You can give the dog the toy and let them have a crack at the contents outside the ring.

Unfortunately we don't get NFC runs here, pity because it would be incredibly helpful with training and retraining behaviours

[The Spotted Devil]

Next time I talk to a judge I will ask them about it. If they go out of the ring to deliver the reward, that doesn't break the rule. May take a lot of time though, which you don't get that much of for a course. Not sure how it would work re start lines though? (something that was stated as what a lot of people would use it for) as you want to reward the stay, which normally means rewarding in position. Contacts as well, many people would reward in position for 2o2o.

Slightly OT but I have trained start line stays using food (in position). After reading September issue of Clean Run I want to retrain using Premack - still with food though.

Since I've "trained" tug Zig's motivation for food seems to have increased exponentially as well - he's just so much more animated about everything.

Somewhere in

is the dog that would not tug AT ALL. When I see his level of excitement and enthusiasm the hard road to get him tugging in any environment was really worth it. I imagine it's also helped build rear end strength - he is a big, awkward dog which makes it difficult for him to control his forward momentum on the A-frame. I think the tugging helps. Edited September 23, 2011 by The Spotted Devil

[caffy]

Slightly OT but I have trained start line stays using food (in position). After reading September issue of Clean Run I want to retrain using Premack - still with food though.

Since I've "trained" tug Zig's motivation for food seems to have increased exponentially as well - he's just so much more animated about everything.

Somewhere in

is the dog that would not tug AT ALL. When I see his level of excitement and enthusiasm the hard road to get him tugging in any environment was really worth it. I imagine it's also helped build rear end strength - he is a big, awkward dog which makes it difficult for him to control his forward momentum on the A-frame. I think the tugging helps.

Thanks for sharing TSD...Love watching your training

[koalathebear]

.

Edited September 24, 2011 by koalathebear

[huski]

I personally don't like the idea of my dog self rewarding on an agility course or with any exercise we do, at least it's not something I would train for or permit in my training. JMHO.

[koalathebear]

.

Edited September 24, 2011 by koalathebear

[dasha]

Koalathebear.......... Reading your post about your dog finding agility self rewarding so you redo the weaves if he makes a mistake is an interesting point.

When I used to do agility there was a dog that was also over the top for agility and his owner did the same thing as you are. Over time though, as he weaved, if he missed a pole, he would pull himself out and start again. As he got near the end, he would miss one, go back and start again...........Without any verbal cue from her. Making a mistake became rewarding as it meant he could do it again.

As a result, she had to change it so that when he made a mistake, he was simply stopped, taken from the ring and put away for a while so he got NO more fun. Then he could come out after 5 mins and do his next run. But whenever he didn't do as asked or made a mistake, it meant he was taken off.

[corvus]

it is just a behaviour, like any other, that when rewarded enough, becomes rewarding itself.

Just wanted to highlight that one so no one misses it and say "Exactly!"

my dog loves hand touches now. if she does a good job and i dont have anything on me to reward her with, a couple of quick hand touches is a really fun game for her! it is about the engagement, not the object/treat...IMO... ;)

My boys love hand touches, too. It's one of those behaviours that I'm always finding new uses for. I agree that it's more about connecting with your dog than what exactly you're using to do that. Rewards have their own value, but IMO there's a lot more to reward delivery than just paying. There are layers to it, I think. Under the surface value there is conditioning going on, probably acting on several different things at once. We can use that. Today at the beach Kivi brought me a papery old piece of weathered stick. I took it from him, had a look, then played a quick game of "get it" with him. He won his piece of stick and trotted off to crunch it up. I didn't ask for anything for that interaction, but that's not to say it can't help my training.

[huski]

I think rewarding your dog should be about sharing a reward experience between the dog and handler, this is one thing that is missing when you allow a dog to self reward, IMO.

[koalathebear]

.

Edited September 24, 2011 by koalathebear

[corvus]

As a result, she had to change it so that when he made a mistake, he was simply stopped, taken from the ring and put away for a while so he got NO more fun. Then he could come out after 5 mins and do his next run. But whenever he didn't do as asked or made a mistake, it meant he was taken off.

I have rules like this for Erik. I swear, that dog has short term memory a mile long. He loves cues and is good at training me to give them when he cues me to.

I don't want to be presumptuous talking about stuff I don't have much direct experience with, but my guess is the reinforcement balance in this sort of scenario can be quite complex. We don't know how Elbie perceives an interruption to his run, but if it works, evidence would suggest he finds it aversive on the whole, all reinforcement interactions aside.

[koalathebear]

.

Edited September 24, 2011 by koalathebear

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I was just listening to a Susan Garrett podcast, and she said if your dog doesn't tug, then you have to run with your dog, ie to get your dog's heart rate up. She uses tug to increase a dog's excitement or drive, and food to calm it down. So it would be really important with some of her more easily over the top excited dogs, that they would take food, and for some of the more difficult to fire up dogs, that they would take tug. But ideally she could work with whatever suited the task.

I can play tug with my dog lead and I've seen some people use their hat as a tug toy. I don't think I have a hat that would last very long used as a tug toy but it's a thought.

With the weaves or any obstacle on the agility course, I find my dog does much better if I tell her when she's doing what I want, so I run round the course going "yes yes yes out out over out yes yes up up yes yes... and the weaves are yes yes yes yes, the more I say yes, the faster she goes. If she pops out early - I don't say "yes", I might say oops. If I can get her back into it, I will, otherwise back to the obstacle before at a walk, and into the weaves again... she usually gets it the second time. For her, going fast is fun, closely followed by being up high, so getting weaves done means we can run again and a shot at something high like the scramble. So far she doesn't seem to want to stuff up for the fun of it, but sometimes she likes to run through the middle like she thinks I want that. That was my dodgy training ie when we started - I didn't block her from doing that. And I didn't do a good enough "reset" (eg collar grab, turn a circle) before repeating a weave run attempt.

She's extremely crap at fetch the tug toy back so sometimes weave training is a PITA. I know I should work on that more but I want to keep the joy for us.

[corvus]

People always said that for dogs you should keep training sessions short but with Elbie we could work on a trick with him for half an hour and he would keep trying until he got it right and never give up even if he was honking in frustration. Whereas some dogs fade towards the end of the class and start losing focus/getting bored, Elbie gets more focused and seems just as enthusiastic at the end of the class if not more so. He has his shortcomings but he's also very easy to motivate and reward in his own way. He likes tug, he likes a ball, he likes food, he likes praise - I guess I just pick what I feel is the most attractive reward at that time.

You're describing Erik! I just kinda pick whatever reward I think suits the type of training I want to do. I was reading about persistence in behaviour this week. There's a theory that animals that are particularly persistent may have more dopamine receptors, meaning they pay more attention to any signal that might relate to reward.

Susan Garrett knows what she's doing! I know some other people that use tug and food that way as well.

[The Spotted Devil]

I also throw food a lot and have Zig running to a bait plate which also serves to increase his excitement and heart rate.

Thanks caffy for your kind words I am blessed with a pair of slightly crazy and very funny dogs which helps!

[aussielover]

It sounds like Elbie has high pack drive or values praise or "approval" from KTB and works towards pleasing her.

If he found the actual agility equipment itself rewarding, he'd probably just run off and do his own course. I've seen a number of dogs just take off and do whatever course they felt like- they looked like they were having fun

DO you really need a tug though to rev your dog up? I can achieve basically the same result with a bit of "rough play" and chasey with my dog before a run- I don't see why tug would necessarily be the only way to increase drive or excitement.

You can also do this with food, if you teach the dog to chase the food and capture it on the run.

Edited September 23, 2011 by aussielover

[koalathebear]

.

Edited September 24, 2011 by koalathebear

[Vickie]

In training, if he makes a mistake, I say: "No" and we start again. So if I say 'no' during the weaves, I take him back to the beginning and he does it again until he gets it right. Same thing with the course on Wednesday night, when we made a mistake, we stopped and started again or went back a few steps so he only runs the full course when everything is done right. Then he'll get a treat.

Be very careful here KTB. In something you can clearly measure like weaves, start lines or contacts, this can work so long as your criteria is clearly defined.

With general handling this becomes much harder to get right. If my dogs miss a jump or take the wrong one, they are never wrong as far as I'm concerned. 99 times out of 100 it is a bad cue I gave or poor timing. To make them think they did the wrong thing when responding to a cue at speed is to make them hesitant and erode the trust they have in me & my handling.

[Kavik]

My dog would shut down if I did that KTB.

[The Spotted Devil]

In training, if he makes a mistake, I say: "No" and we start again. So if I say 'no' during the weaves, I take him back to the beginning and he does it again until he gets it right. Same thing with the course on Wednesday night, when we made a mistake, we stopped and started again or went back a few steps so he only runs the full course when everything is done right. Then he'll get a treat.

Be very careful here KTB. In something you can clearly measure like weaves, start lines or contacts, this can work so long as your criteria is clearly defined.

With general handling this becomes much harder to get right. If my dogs miss a jump or take the wrong one, they are never wrong as far as I'm concerned. 99 times out of 100 it is a bad cue I gave or poor timing. To make them think they did the wrong thing when responding to a cue at speed is to make them hesitant and erode the trust they have in me & my handling.

This! If it's a mistake during training that I want to handle better I will tell him how good he was for doing exactly what I asked and sometimes even reward that and then set him up to try again. If I'm teaching something new I don't say anything but just try it again and reward like CRAZY. The absence of a reward is sign enough that it wasn't quite right. In a trial I try to keep that forward momentum going so don't stop to re do something. Zig is actually running much harder now and I will have to adjust my handling to suit - it's a great problem to have.

Edited September 23, 2011 by The Spotted Devil