Jumabaar Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) Here is a link to an article on vaccination schedules that I found. For breeders education, but it might also be good for puppy packs. Recent Advances in Canine Infectious Diseases It covers vaccination schedules as well as talks about when non-core vaccines should be given and gives examples of different vaccination schedules (and discusses them). Most of the stuff published my IVIS is peer reviewed but I have lost my log in to check that this one has been. ETA- Published in 2000 but it is still relevant and being cited in more recent articles but I couldn't find a more up to date one that was on the net. Edited January 6, 2012 by Jumabaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Here is a link to an article on vaccination schedules that I found. For breeders education, but it might also be good for puppy packs. Recent Advances in Canine Infectious Diseases It covers vaccination schedules as well as talks about when non-core vaccines should be given and gives examples of different vaccination schedules (and discusses them). Most of the stuff published my IVIS is peer reviewed but I have lost my log in to check that this one has been. ETA- Published in 2000 but it is still relevant and being cited in more recent articles but I couldn't find a more up to date one that was on the net. Hi Jumabaar. A good article and timely too. Thank you It raises some questions about the current vaccination regimes and strongly reinforces what steve has been saying all along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 I will add that most vets are unwilling to go against the indications given by drug companies. If the vaccine has written on it that it only guarantees one year cover then that is all it legally allowed to be used for- Which is a big influence on vets continuing with their current yearly schedule. For a vet to advise not following the guidelines provided by the manufacturer they are somewhat open to legal issues if someones pet then falls victim to one of the disease. I think pressure needs to be put on drug companies to do the testing and change their recommendations on the packaging of vaccines. The same should be done with specifically testing dose rates in toy breeds. Most vets are open to discussing appropriate schedules, but most will stick to the packaging because it is easier to get 'informed consent' when following guidelines than it is to go against a manufacturers recommendation, thus their unwillingness. It also means that clients get their dogs health checked yearly which they may not do if they didn't come in for their yearly vaccination. And for some pets this means that little lumps and bumps that would be picked up by the vet and easily treated, go unnoticed until a much later date. So if you do recommend a more basic vaccination schedule to puppy buyers, also recommend a yearly health check with their vet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozwildflower Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I'm still confused about this because, when I've questioned my vet, I've been told that a different vaccine is used in the USA and covers for longer. What do I believe? I have chosen not to have my 7 year old pet boy vaccinated for the last 2 years but he does have an appointment for a booster C3 next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) Its just so hard isn't it to know the questions and find the answers and we have been conditioned and legislated to accept our vet's word as gospel. Why on earth would we challenge what our vet does or says when they are supposedly some of the smartest people in the country - they have to be in about the top 5% to even get into uni and its a 6 year course. The whole vaccine thing opens up many others which relate to immunology ,selection of puppies to keep for breeding and management of our pet dogs and our breeding dogs. Sadly the onus is on us and whether that is because the vet is uneducated,frightened of litigation if they say something which isnt on the label , whether its a way of generating money or whether they have some idea of a welfare based reason doesnt really change anything for us or our dogs. There are heaps of questions and we cant afford to short cut the answers .We need to base our conclusions of best management for our dogs based on science and facts not on opinion. At all times we need to remember the veterinary profession doesnt work the same way as the medical profession. If a manufacturer of vaccines were to push for every person to be vaccinated every year for polio that needs to be tested and the protocols are dictated by science. Doctors cant just say well every human needs to be vaccinated every year for XYZ to ensure everyone comes in once a year for a checkup or to ensure they have enough income. Vets can. The drug companies make lots and lots of money out of this too. When heartworm meds were first introduced at least one drug company gave a gift to all vets as an introductory offer which happened to be slides which they could use to look at samples under a microscope to spot for lav ea. It turned out these slides were impregnated with this which they said were demonstration slides when it came out but there were a lot of cases reported which didn't exist in the mean time to make us all think heart worm meds are more important than they are. Few mention the impact they have on the immune system and especially breeding dogs in relation to fertility and sperm counts etc. Testing and timing protocols are different as well in relation to animals.Thats a similar but different topic But both vaccinations and heartworm are mandated under mandatory codes. Fact is the vets do only need to go by what the drug company tells them and realistically I guess its pretty hard to expect a vet to do their own research on every drug etc. So it depends on how far you want to go with this. You can spend time looking at the disease,what the risk factor is for your dogs and potential side effects etc or you can look at science based research by people such at Schultz and look at current protocols by those other than your vet - you can go further and look at the entire immune system of the dog and understand issues with far reaching potential consequences - including live versus killed vaccine. The questions you need to research and look at may be breed related as well. does a chi need the same shot dose as a Great Dane ? How what we are doing is impacting on their quality of life and longevity. I give fair warning that the more you look and research and learn especially concerning breeding dogs the more you will become angry at the fact that you have limited choices anyway. Crazy thing is if you own a dog and decide not to vaccinate it - no worries its your choice - not if its a breeding dog and breeding dogs are at greater risk. In the states a breeder can assess what their dogs need and when they need it and buy a vaccine and stick it in them - here even finding a vet who will give a killed parvo shot rather than a live C3 is a hard ask If a vet is telling you that the 3 year vaccine is different to the one which they have always had they are either deceived by the drug company or telling you fibs http://www.news.wisc.edu/8413 this is a good start re Schultz but if you want to go further there are studies and science to back up what he is saying. id also like to add that back in the late 80's my vet who has now died told me I never needed to vaccinate my dogs past their first birthday . Edited January 6, 2012 by Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) Also this will start you off on your answers. Then ask yourself ethically how can you not yell about mandatory laws which make you do as you are told and which make people think they dont need to look at it . http://www.woodhaven...m/vaccines.html Edited January 6, 2012 by Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) To follow on from this, here is the Australian Veterinary Association Policy on vaccination, which you will note has adopted the concept of 'core' and 'non core' vaccines. This policy was introduced in June 2009. (note that it provides for 'off label' use of vaccines with consultation to seek 'informed consent') It is based largely on the recommendations of the Vaccination Guideline Group of the World Small Animal Veterinary Association: WSAVA Guidelines for the Vaccination of Dogs and Cats. (which does address the issue and likely resistance to pet owners not going to the vet annually for vaccinations) Edited January 6, 2012 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 To follow on from this, here is the Australian Veterinary Association Policy on vaccination, which you will note has adopted the concept of 'core' and 'non core' vaccines. This policy was introduced in June 2009. (note that it provides for 'off label' use of vaccines with consultation to seek 'informed consent') It is based largely on the recommendations of the Vaccination Guideline Group of the World Small Animal Veterinary Association: WSAVA Guidelines for the Vaccination of Dogs and Cats. (which does address the issue and likely resistance to pet owners not going to the vet annually for vaccinations) Thank you - informed consent is important - unless you breed dogs then being informed and not giving consent is out . Sorry I dont mean to nag about it all but we have a vet here who gives information which is "your dog is due for its annual vaccination" and refuses to give anything in writing that they agree its O.K. for me not to vaccinate. being informed does me little good if I cant find a vet who agrees with my information and is prepared to get me off the hook to comply with laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Yes agree there can be a difference between the policy and the practice. It is as much about educating vets as it is about educating owners - and many vets dont see the point and aren't open to all the recommendations made by the AVA. Can be frustratingly hard when choice of vets is limited in an area and they won't work with you on these things, even when their own peak body is telling them it is ok! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 I'm still confused about this because, when I've questioned my vet, I've been told that a different vaccine is used in the USA and covers for longer. What do I believe? I have chosen not to have my 7 year old pet boy vaccinated for the last 2 years but he does have an appointment for a booster C3 next week. Vaccines all work in the same way. It is a problem here in Australia that we don't have the research done here but you can see from the Australian Veterinary Guidelines that your boy shouldn't need vaccinating this year. You should still pop into your vet and get a general wellness check up though and let them know about the 'recent' AVA guideline changes ;) I have dogs that attend obedience, flyball etc. So as a breeder I am stuck between a rock and a hard place. I overcome it by titre testing, and if the club doesn't want to accept it then they can also be the receivers of a whole heap of peer reviewed papers on the topic. I don't accept no for an answer when I have found numerous studies that support my stance. I didn't want this to be a vet trashing thread, it was supposed to be about education and sharing information. There have been a number of posts like ozwildflower recently (in here and in the health section) where vets have clearly been told the wrong information by someone/somewhere, or got their wires crossed. Please note that I have mentioned peer reviewing a number of times. Getting articles/studies that have been peer reviewed are ideal when dealing with vets, or other individuals in the industry. I have been shown 'evidence' by an individual on the forum for giving her dog large quantities of Ivermectin every three months instead of using monthly doses (she was in a heart worm area).... It came from crazy internet blogs and a few other questionable sources. Lets just say that it didn't end nicely ;) . I am all for research but you need to question what your sources are and make sure that they have the right qualifications. (This is advice for anyone thinking of doing their own research and not a reflection of the links already posted by others in this thread) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 To follow on from this, here is the Australian Veterinary Association Policy on vaccination, which you will note has adopted the concept of 'core' and 'non core' vaccines. This policy was introduced in June 2009. (note that it provides for 'off label' use of vaccines with consultation to seek 'informed consent') It is based largely on the recommendations of the Vaccination Guideline Group of the World Small Animal Veterinary Association: WSAVA Guidelines for the Vaccination of Dogs and Cats. (which does address the issue and likely resistance to pet owners not going to the vet annually for vaccinations) Thank you - informed consent is important - unless you breed dogs then being informed and not giving consent is out . Sorry I dont mean to nag about it all but we have a vet here who gives information which is "your dog is due for its annual vaccination" and refuses to give anything in writing that they agree its O.K. for me not to vaccinate. being informed does me little good if I cant find a vet who agrees with my information and is prepared to get me off the hook to comply with laws. Perhaps ring up Dr Barbara Fougere if you can't find a vet who will have an appropriate discussion about vaccination schedules. The clinic used to do phone consults and I am sure she would be happy to 'recommend' an appropriate vaccination schedule that would be acceptable to you, and thus allow you to comply with the laws. I guess while people who create legislation without researching its appropriateness researching vets will be as important as researching the clinical aspects of dog care. Barbara's Vet Clinic: http://www.naturalvet.com.au/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Here is a link to an article on vaccination schedules that I found. For breeders education, but it might also be good for puppy packs. Recent Advances in Canine Infectious Diseases It covers vaccination schedules as well as talks about when non-core vaccines should be given and gives examples of different vaccination schedules (and discusses them). Most of the stuff published my IVIS is peer reviewed but I have lost my log in to check that this one has been. ETA- Published in 2000 but it is still relevant and being cited in more recent articles but I couldn't find a more up to date one that was on the net. Thanks for posting this link. It has further confirmed my decision to stay with 3 yearly vaccinations and stick to just the C3 I have used for about 20 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozwildflower Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Thanks for all the information. I actually printed most of it out and had a good read in bed last night. I will now go back to how I was feeling about yearly vaccinations with the backing of some extremely sound articles. I'm in the 'older' age group and we never used to vaccinate yearly and my canines have nearly always lived very long and healthy lives. I have a young girl that, if she passes all her various testing) I will be breeding from this year - guess I will have to have her given boosters when she has a pre-mating check-up - other than that I will talk to my vet about doing the yearly 'medicals' without vaccinations. I really do appreciate all the terrific links and comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr_inoz Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 what vaccination protocol do people follow for their puppies - especially given the AVA recommendations which state the final (second) puppy vaccination should be at 16 weeks? I know most vets currently do 6 weeks and the follow up at 12..... If I wanted to follow the 16 week protocol, at what age would the first vaccination be? Also, what do you tell your puppy buyers if you follow this protocol? (Do they still need to stay at home after the first vaccination until after the second? - a couple of the articles suggest otherwise) I have started following the AVA recommendations (thank goodness have a vet who agrees). Since stopping annual vaccinations, my girl's "itchy skin" has all but stopped. She no longer has the originally thought high allergy to grass. She has been titre tested and has high immunity levels, two years and 1/2 years after her last vaccination. Also - has anyone got any links to the heart worm vaccine and its possible effects on canines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I've been trying to understand the genetics of immune response. Came across the following statement . . . which at root says it's complicated and genetic predisposition to react cannot be ignored: Both killed and modified live vaccines are potentially allergenic, though for very different reasons. Killed vaccines contain chemicals called adjuvants that enhance the efficacy of the vaccine without exposing the dog to the pathogen. The adjuvants can cause an allergic reaction. In the modified live vaccines, the toxins produced by the pathogen are what cause the reaction. One should keep in mind that in both cases, the vaccines are not the cause of the allergy, but the trigger. A dog must be genetically predisposed to allergies for the reaction to take place. I'd recommend reading the whole article, which refers specifically to Australian Shephards, and non-dogmatically regards inbreeding as one possible contributor to genetic predisposition to allergenic responses. http://www.ashgi.org/articles/immune_rising_storm.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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