Interesting News Out Of Crufts

[Crisovar]

Yes so you assume the judges knew the breeds - the judges thought the bulldog looked fit for function.

Actually I think "function" has little to do with it. The judges (trained by successful bulldog breeders/exhibitors) put up the dog that best fit the standard (set by breeders/exhibitors).

Its a cycle.. your dogs go up... you get to train and evaluate the next generation of judges... who put those dogs up...

If that is how it is now then that is really sad, I found that many trainee judges were more than willing to learn in depth about the Breeds they were hoping to adjudicate. In fact many were happy to sit at the feet of old timers (who didn't even set foot in the show ring with their dogs) to learn more. Many a long night spent discussing and dissecting. Weekends watching dogs work, watching litters of pups getting their hands on dogs they would never get a chance to judge but would bring to life the breed standard they were trying hard to understand.

[Sheridan]

Is your tale of woe anedotal or do you have a link we can refer to for the claim that the ripple effect is huge?

Tale of woe? Really? Do you only reserve belittlement and sarcasm for people you don't agree with or is that you don't accurately understand the meaning of the word woe? But then you are prone to exaggeration. I have never seen a dog with its' eyes sagging around its' chin even in a cartoon, let alone Crufts.

Either way, look up Exhibitors Choice on FB. There are over 5000 members and climbing.

Exhibitors Choice aka Jemima Harrison fodder.

Are these the people who will continue to breed dogs that are not fit for function

?

What function. Why don't you email them and ask them?

You're the one in a panic that the sky is falling. Me, I don't think it is. What function, indeed.

As far as the comment from Telida. Breeders did stop over tail docking, but this is different. I wrote more but have deleted it all. Enjoy your lynch party folks .

What, because breeders are being told not to breed extremes? No one is being lynched here. Who is going to come out the worse in this scenario? The Kennel Club who finally got it into their heads that doing something about, for example, dogs that cannot freely whelp would be a good thing? Or is it the breeders who say 'You can't tell me what to do!'

[Jed]

As far as the comment from Telida. Breeders did stop over tail docking, but this is different. I wrote more but have deleted it all. Enjoy your lynch party folks .

Who's lynching whom?

All I'm saying is the sky will not fall.

It depends on your definition of the sky falling, I suppose.

The sky has fallen on some previously docked breeds with breeders walking away. One of the reasons the breeder numbers of the ANKC has fallen to around 4000 is because those breeders exited. In some docked breeds, there is a waiting list of around 2 years, and prices have doubled, and continue to rise.

I suppose if you are a buyer, the sky has fallen. If you are a breed fancier, the sky has fallen, as you view the dwindling of the gene pool, and the dearth of quality dogs. If you are a breeder, the sky is golden when you count your profits

I suppose if you are the ANKC, getting less membership, the sky has drooped a bit.

The sky didn't fall when BSL happened either, unless you happened to be caught up in it, although you and your dog had done nothing wrong. Then the sky fell on you big time.

But I guess if the sky hasn't fallen on you personally, TW, the sky hasn't fallen at all.

Judging by the high profile and active people involved with the alliance, I expect many interesting things will happen.

Will the sky fall? Have to wait and see.

Oh, and there is a vet's report from a specialist vet on the 'net which contradicts the opinion of the feline vet used by the KC to vet check and fail the Basset Hound at Crufts.

Gets interestinger and interestinger!!

Edited March 16, 2012 by Jed

[TessnSean]

Wonderful post Jef. Pity ther is no like button. There are those who deliberately choose to read between the lines of what I wrote and place a meaning that was never said or intended.

This was posted on another forum I frequent

I think this describes what's happening right now.

First they came for the docked breeds and I did not have a docked breed so I said nothing. Then they came for the short nosed breeds and I did not have a short nosed breed so I said nothing. Then they came for the short legged breeds and I did not have a short legged breed so I said nothing. Then they came for my breed and there was no one left to speak out for us. (apologies to Pastor Niemoller and all Holocaust victims)

Edited March 17, 2012 by Troy
Comment removed

[megan_]

So there is no problem with breeders breeding exaggerated dogs?

[Salukifan]

Jed:

But I guess if the sky hasn't fallen on you personally, TW, the sky hasn't fallen at all.

That's a pretty low blow and frankly Jed, I expected better from you in this discussion. I just KNEW someone would personalise this and its precisely WHY I pointed out that I wasn't watching from the perspective of someone who couldn't be personally affected in the future. Frankly, I didn't expect it would be you.

This situation calls for cool heads and further facts. Calls for "fighting" "boycotts" and the like isn't helping.

As has been pointed out in other fora, we need to hear all sides of what occured before reaching conclusions about what has happened and what needs to be sorted, particularly in the context of the ANKC and what it might do.

Before fighting folks, have a bloody good think about who and what you're fighting for. If you are fighting for the reason that you don't think that any breed standard today creates health issues for dogs then you really need to think about that. Are you fighting to protect these kinds of views?

Barry Offiler, the chairman of the Pekingese Club, which has been going for 104 years, said the Kennel Club was simply panicking. He stated:

“If it’s got a muzzle it won’t be a pekingese, and if we have to breed dogs with a muzzle which breed do we cross with them? We are talking about a breed that is popular worldwide. This will prevent us showing dogs abroad and will stop overseas competitors entering Crufts. We all support improved health, but we don’t know what damage the muzzle might give to the breed.”

I call that a serious WTF statement. I'm thinking the dogs won't consider it damage. I leave it to others to judge the level of breeder self interest in the remainder of the statement.

If you're fighting to stop Canine Controls acting to enforce amendments to the judging of breed standards, have a good thing about that too.

And if you're fighting because you don't think anyone has the right to tell dog breeders how and what to breed then all I can say is stand by for some very rude shocks.

We either find ways to ensure that the health of purebred dogs becomes a higher priority than maintaining breed and judging standards or we stand to have that done for us in far less gentle ways than the KC is using.

Did the KC get it right? I honestly don't know. Lets wait and see shall we. In the meantime, it might pay to recognise that not everyone disagreeing with you does so from self interest or lacks empathy with those affected by these decisions.

But my interests are firmly entrenched on the side of the DOGS. I don't and won't reconcile from that position, regardless of what's thrown at me. A dog that cannot be walked on a moderate day without risking heat stroke, a dog that suffers from permanent eye or ear irritation.. sorry but IMO its just plain wrong.

And as for what Chinese empresses may have said... 10 inch fingernails are a thing of the past. Maybe dogs whose physical conformation is so extreme as to cause them health issues needs to be too.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Telida Whippets

[Sheridan]

Wonderful post Jef. Pity ther is no like button. There are those who deliberately choose to read between the lines of what I wrote and place a meaning that was never said or intended.

This was posted on another forum I frequent

I think this describes what's happening right now.

First they came for the docked breeds and I did not have a docked breed so I said nothing. Then they came for the short nosed breeds and I did not have a short nosed breed so I said nothing. Then they came for the short legged breeds and I did not have a short legged breed so I said nothing. Then they came for my breed and there was no one left to speak out for us. (apologies to Pastor Niemoller and all Holocaust victims)

I know a poster called Sheridan on other pages I go to. She is funny, witty and intelligent. She can discuss a wide range of things and make strong points. She is a very popular poster because she never mocks anyone. She never resorts to sarcasm as she says it about the lowest form of wit.

The DOL Sheridan is definitely nothing like the other Sheridan I know.

Perhaps you ought to read the DOL rule about personal attacks.

[Jed]

Spokesman for the pekingese club

Quote

Barry Offiler, the chairman of the Pekingese Club, which has been going for 104 years, said the Kennel Club was simply panicking. He stated:

“If it’s got a muzzle it won’t be a pekingese, and if we have to breed dogs with a muzzle which breed do we cross with them? We are talking about a breed that is popular worldwide. This will prevent us showing dogs abroad and will stop overseas competitors entering Crufts. We all support improved health, but we don’t know what damage the muzzle might give to the breed.”

Telida Whippets

I call that a serious WTF statement. I'm thinking the dogs won't consider it damage. I leave it to others to judge the level of breeder self interest in the remainder of the statement.

What he means is that once you cross with something else, you get extras as well as the long muzzle. Even in a breed - without going outside the breed, if you want some feature, you may have to sacrifice something else, so you think long and hard. No one has any idea what crossing pekes will do in terms of conformation and health.

And the most worrisome thing? Where is any evidence at all that some of these dogs are suffering? AR says they are, the breeders say they are not. Who is right? Where are copious vet reports on the entire breed, not reports on a few dog.

Don't shout at me, think about it.

Telida Whippets

That's a pretty low blow and frankly Jed, I expected better from you in this discussion. I just KNEW someone would personalise this and its precisely WHY I pointed out that I wasn't watching from the perspective of someone who couldn't be personally affected in the future. Frankly, I didn't expect it would be you.

I would never have thought you would worry about it being personalized, you said it was what you thought, how is that not personal? I am sorry if you thought it was a low blow - I was simply replying to what I have always taken as your point of view.

I believed that BSL and docking were the beginning of the holocaust of purebred dogs, brought on by Animal Rights, PeTa et al. I now believe that we are into phase 2, and the end is coming.

Whether the actions of the exhibitors make it worse or not is a moot point. I actually don't think it could get much worse. I think the KC and CCs totally misjudged the opposition to begin with. As they have always misjudged it. For anyone who doesn't believes that, look at the AR sites.

You don't believe the sky is falling. I don't know, I think it has fallen to some degree already. Each of those moves has reduced still further purebred breeders. There are hardly enough to make a dint in an opposing view.

But I can't understand why you would be offended.

Anyhow, my apologies for offending you, it was not my intention.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Jed

[Salukifan]

What he means is that once you cross with something else, you get extras as well as the long muzzle. Even in a breed - without going outside the breed, if you want some feature, you may have to sacrifice something else, so you think long and hard. No one has any idea what x pekes will do.

But they don't have to outcross to fix it. The pups they pet out because their muzzles are too long is where they start to reverse the trend of the last 150 years.

And the most worrisome thing? Where is any evidence at all that some of these dogs are suffering? AR says they are, the breeders say they are not. Who is right? Don't shout at me, think about it.

I see them Jed. I see them at dog shows, at dog clubs and I read about them here. A dog that rasps to breathe at rest? That cannot gait around a ring on a mild day without audible breathing? There are plenty of purebred dog fanciers who look at some breeds and shake their heads. Look at how GSD discussion inevitably ends up here.

I believed that BSL and docking were the beginning of the holocaust of purebred dogs, brought on by Animal Rights, PeTa et al. I now believe that we are into phase 2, and the end is coming.

I believe that we have the capacity to defend ourselves better and to shape change from within IF we act. But if we don't then I think you may be right for some breeds.

Anyhow, my apologies for offending you, it was not my intention. Your belief is the more popular one anyhow.

Not among the purebred dog fancy it ain't. And it scares the living hell out of me. I see it as the Emperors New Clothes gone mad.

And apology accepted. Maybe I'm still bruised from expressing a dissenting view on Ozshow. ;)

Edited March 16, 2012 by Telida Whippets

[Jed]

Telida Whippets, I meant to write this anyway but you gave me the lead, so these are all replies to you

But they don't have to outcross to fix it. The pups they pet out because their muzzles are too long is where they start to reverse the trend of the last 150 years.

Are you sure? Are you quite sure that the dogs of 150 years ago were all longer in the muzzles than the ones today?

Are you sure that pekes have health problems? What are they? Why do you think that? Is there evidence?

Not a couple, a lot. I would think at least 20% to bin a breed. Is that fair?

Telida Whippets

I see them Jed. I see them at dog shows, at dog clubs and I read about them here. A dog that rasps to breathe at rest? That cannot gait around a ring on a mild day without audible breathing? There are plenty of purebred dog fanciers who look at some breeds and shake their heads. Look at how GSD discussion inevitably ends up here.

And I see quite a few which look dodgy - but I do not know that they are unhealthy. All the bulldogs I see are running around and look fine.

Must admit I dont see many dogs rasping for breath at rest.

And I do think GSDs look dodgy - specially the ones with the humpbacks, but someone, show me some proper evidence they are suffering. They look as if they are to me, but where are the vet reports? Where is the evidence? I think any breed which has a convex spine is dodgy. I know the convexity conveys more strength, but it looks bad to me, and I am sure they are sickly!! I would never own one. And there are a few of them.

Do I know enough about GSDs to proclaim this or that one "unhealthy, suffering". No I don't, so I shut up

OK, Telida Whippets, not replying to you any more. :)

Yes, maybe breeders are in denial. However, I would suppose that well over 90% of breeders would be seeking to breed healthy dogs. What is the point of breeding sickly dogs, if you are a breeder? Yes, for show ring status. But the CC comes once a week, the vets bills and unhealthiness is every day - and healthy dogs win CCs too. Easier to have a healthier one I think.

And I find it hard to believe that all these breeders are living with wheezing, gasping, suffering dogs. I had a good look at Bassets at a show the other day -- most of them had moderate skin folds and few of them, nothing like the dogs in PDE. I thought the basset who won crufts had a lot of skin folds, but I cannot find any veterinary notes saying those skin folds are detrimental to health -- unless they are harbouring bacteria etc. I didnt think his skin folds were deep enough, and they weren't mentioned in his fail vet report. So I was wrong about skin folds. And again, he got a good report from a specialist vet.

So, what is going on?

The clumber? Most parti coloured dogs can be subject to white haws, and particularly where they have white skin/hair around their eyes. If dogs were dumped for having white haws, the world would be missing quite a few dogs.

I have some, and have had some with white haws. I never knew them to cause any problems, even in extremely hot and dusty conditions. And yes, I would like not to have white haws. But if the question is white haws or some other problem - wry mouth, HD, ED, flat feet, pigeon chest,long in the loin, bad angulation, give me white haws every time. The clumber was a beautiful dog. I would prefer 50 of her than 1 with good haws without her other attributes.

Further, I do not believe the clumber had ectropian - according to the specialist vet report. And again, I'll go with the specialist vet.

I send my dogs to a specialist vet for health checks, because he knows more. He has done at least 5 years extra study on his specialty.

And think about the dogs any one of you believes are unhealthy. They are mostly dogs you have had nothing to do with, and in fact have never had a hand on.

So where is the proof? With pekingese - I have no idea whether they are unhealthy or not - I knew one well a long time ago, and she was as healthy as a horse. The show ones I see at shows and at home look pretty normal too. Everyone on dol who has pekes thinks they are ok too. So, where are the unhealthy ones? Where is the documented evidence?

The newspapers convinced the public that pitbulls would bite anything, anytime, anywhere. Everyone believed them, although there was no evidence. So the government banned them. And dog bite stats have risen, not fallen. Despite every dog which bites subsequently being labelled a "pit bull".

There is evidence that docking does not cause pain to neonates, something that every breeder of docked breeds knows, but the general public does not believe that, because the TV told them otherwise.

Again, the newspapers convinced the public that purebred dogs are unhealthy and people believe it.

Not me. I want to see the evidence. Numbers in each breed, and the idiopathic conditions they suffer from.

In Cavaliers, I have never seen SM, all my cavs die at around 14, and yes, one did have MVD and she died at 14 too. My 9 year old dog has a murmur, but the specialist thinks it was brought on the stress of the fire. But, I must be lying, because so many cavs have MVD, and the extrapolated figures for SM in Cavaliers are supposed to be 70%. And yes, that is only one small kennel. But my friends say the same. So, are we all in denial?

I don't think so.

In some breeds, I think there is a fine line between good and sick.

We need more facts and figures, not just "we think" ;"he said"; "I saw". before we go about ridding ourselves of those unhealthy purebred dogs.

Ingrid Newkirk

Pet ownership is an absolutely abysmal situation brought about by human manipulation."

-- Ingrid Newkirk, national director, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA), Just Like Us? Harper's, August 1988, p. 50

And she began in 1988, we still haven't begun. What can be wrong with us? No wonder they are winning. You've lost your docked dogs, you've lost pit bulls, dog bites are up, you are about to lose purebred dogs.

And please don't think I am telling anyone what to do. I would like everyone to think about breeds they feel are unhealthy, and then tell themselves why they think that, and whether there is any evidence?

And if you still think they should have the chop, well, that's ok too.

Same as the pekes. There doesn't seem to be any evidence (I looked). Not over the entire breed.

Telida, I think you said something similar about BSL - fact is, it is too late, no matter what we do, the breeds are gone. First something with small numbers, like the peke, and then... Oh, hell what am I saying? I said this 6 years ago, I am not saying it again.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Jed

[Jed]

http://dogknobit.com/2012/03/15/why-crufts-should-worry-us/

Why Crufts Should Worry Us

by Susi on March 15, 2012

in Crufts, dog show, Pulik, purebred dogs

The hair has been standing up on the back of my neck since several breeds were disqualified at Crufts last week following the introduction of the new scheme calling for veterinary checks for the Best of Breed winners.

This is a very, very slippery slope and as dog fanciers, we’re standing at the edge of it. I keep thinking of Martin Niemoller’s quote which I’ve shortened and paraphrased to save space: When the Nazis came for the communists, I remained silent because I wasn’t a communist. When they came for the trade unionists, I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a trade unionist. When they came for the Jews,I remained silent because I wasn’t a Jew. When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out. Now substitute a breed in any of those sentences above: When they came for the American Staffordshire Terrier, I didn’t say anything because I didn’t own an Am Staff. When they came for the Peke, I didn’t say anything because I didn’t own a Peke. You see where this is going.

How long before “someone else” decides that the corded coat on my breed is excessive? One doesn’t see a Puli herding sheep in a show coat, or jogging with their owner in the summer. A Puli in a fully corded coat sinks like a rock if it falls into water. How long before “someone else” decides that my dog can’t possibly be a normal dog because of the “strain” the coat inflicts upon their heart, or because it compromises their ability to regulate their internal thermostat? How can Puli in coat possibly be comfortable?

This is my Grand Champion a couple of years ago. Is his coat "excessive?"

And who should decide this? Someone like me who’s been in the breed for 30 years, or “someone else” who may never have seen a Puli in person?

I wouldn’t be too quick to dismiss that it will never happen. I never dreamt that bully breeds would be outlawed in certain cities. I never dreamt that by driving 45 minutes north of where I live, I would magically transform from “dog owner” to “dog guardian.” I never dreamt that the AKC would accept mixed breeds for any reason. I never – in my wildest imagination – ever conceived of the day when people would be “guilted” for owning a purebred dog, or that “breeder” would one day be a dirty word, or that people with placards would stand on the Best in Show platform at Westminster and inform the audience that they are all dog killers.

If any of the aforementioned had happened overnight, we would have been outraged. But such things happen by inches over time and now here we are, living at a time when everything I mentioned in the paragraph above is a reality. What happened at Crufts is simply another tick in the ruler that edges us closer to the Animal Rights vision, and we’ll continue to be the chumps of the world if we can’t piece together the logical consequences of where all this is going.

Had the documentary, Pedigreed Exposed” written with an animal rights thrust not been broadcast in the UK, we wouldn’t be talking about DQs at Crufts right now. But it did air, complete with what many felt were misleading, if not inaccurate statements that caused a backlash. In the view of many, the Kennel Club failed to defend good breeders after its broadcast, and then added injury to insult by bowing to pressure from animal rights groups. This year, Crufts instituted compulsory health checks for all dogs that won Best of Breed in fifteen “high profile breeds,” and any dog failing the check was withdrawn from the remainder of the competition. For several dogs, this is exactly what happened.

The system’s “underbelly” is frought with vulnerable spots, not the least of which is that the decision of the vet who used appearance as a standard for health was as subjective as a dog show judge’s opinion. In truth, many of the biggest health threats in dogs can’t even be seen with the naked eye.

If you don’t think this can happen here, consider that on the heels of the fuss caused by “Pedigree Exposed,” the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) convened “The Purebred Paradox” conference in 2011 which featured many of the same players who brought the issue onto center stage in Great Britain. Do you really think they’ll stop until they get results similar to what happened in England? And do you think they’ll stop there?

This is not to dismiss the fact that in some breeds, there aren’t concerns. But where there are problems with a breed, I don’t believe it’s up to people who don’t know a thing about that breed or even the fancy to dictate to rest of us how to remedy it. Who better to know what rears its ugly head in a breed than the breeders, exhibitors and owners who’ve devoted their lives to that breed? Every breed (including mixed breeds) has issues and BREEDERS are working on them. The AR bunch didn’t work to eliminate Storage Disease. Breeders did. Some might offer as a rebuttal that until Crufts, breeders weren’t policing themselves. While this point is taken, it’s akin to offering as a remedy to a broken arm an entire body cast.

Indulge me for a minute as I digress. The February, 2012 edition of National Geographic contained a cover article on Purebred dogs which I was sure was going to be another “hit piece” on pedigreed dogs. I read it reluctantly, but I did read it. The thrust of the article was that breeders in the Victorian era assumed that the vast differences of phenotypes in dogs, from the tiny Chihuahua to the grandeur of the Great Dane, also extended to their genes. As we learn more about our dogs, however, we’ve learned that in fact, few genes separate our breeds.This is a boon for people, less so for dogs. Why? As the article asserted, breeders have unwittingly supplied science with the perfect models through which to study human disease because we share many of the same diseases with dogs.

We’ve long known the untold benefits dogs have on our lives, and science studying the rich variety of breeds to cure what ails us is just one more thing dogs give us. But I interpreted the main point of the article differently. Now that breed type has been established and identified in each breed standard, allow the breeders to partner with science to eliminate issues out of their respective breeds, such as Storage Disease, while preserving breed type. But WE do it, the breeders. Not people who’ve never owned or bred a purebred dog. Not people who don’t share our love of what a purebred dog brings to the table. And certainly not Animal Rights zealots leaning on Crufts.

Guess who else benefits from the hard work that breeders do to ensure sound dogs. The mutts. It’s a fallacy that mixed breeds are sounder than purebred dogs. The incidence of disease may seem higher in purebred dogs because their owners and BREEDERS report it to their vets. Breed clubs gather annually at National Specialties to “check in” with their breeds. When was the last time the owners of mixed breeds convened to ensure the future soundness of their, um, breeds? I can’t tell you how many unsound mutts I see walking down a street, their owners oblivious to what is an obvious hip issue. But it’s the breeders and their clubs that fund research. It’s the breeders who sound the alarm if a disease shows up in their line or their breed. And in the end, it’s breeders who must solve this situation by policing our own, not the animal rights groups or even a registry like the Kennel Club.

Coming full circle, it is true that fanciers in some breeds needed to be nudged, and in that regard, there is blame to go around. As fellow fanciers, we should have been policing our own. As fanciers, we value balance in our dogs, and as a rule, it’s how we approach the world. But animal rights zealots have tipped the balance to an extreme and what happened at Crufts is a symptom of it. It’s not too late for us to take over the throttle of this runaway train and slow it down to where reasonable people can act – but we’re running out of time. In my perfect world, we’d be doing a little leaning of our own on the organizations which have portrayed themselves as our advocates by urging them to be more visible in the fight. They need to do what Crufts didn’t and stand up for the responsible purebred dog fancier.

As my children were growing up, I used to tell them that they had better learn the lessons I was teaching them because I was teaching them those lessons with love. If my kids didn’t learn, the world would teach them the same lessons but not give a whit about their feelings or self esteem. I suspect this is where we are now. While we were minding our own business, the AR bunch was sucker punching us. How long do we keep taking the hits?

[Alyosha]

Sorry to jump backwards, but had to ask folks. This dog has a muzzle, yes/no?

http://us.fotolia.com/id/31406177

And this one? Yes/no?

http://www.123rf.com/photo_2252511_close-up-of-dog-face-pekinese.html

One more for comparison?

http://www.petshopandmore.com/pekingese-dogs.html

Different muzzles to be sure, but all are still obviously pekes either way?

Sorry for links, can't post pics from ipad...

[Aidan3]

http://dogknobit.com/2012/03/15/why-crufts-should-worry-us/

No need to worry about the 'animal rights zealots', the purebred dog world will do itself in. There are some serious problems with this new scheme, but many of the opinions I see written on it seems to rely on digs at 'animal rights zealots', the slippery slope fallacy, then dies it's death (usually early on) by Godwin's Law.

Your own arguments are much stronger, Jed. Let's have a dispassionate and open-minded look at the facts.

[espinay2]

Peke :) : http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=43981

[Crisovar]

Peke :) : http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=43981

Good Grief that can't be true Espinay a peke that has legs, can run and jump and carry a dumb bell :laugh:

[Jed]

http://dogknobit.com/2012/03/15/why-crufts-should-worry-us/

No need to worry about the 'animal rights zealots', the purebred dog world will do itself in. There are some serious problems with this new scheme, but many of the opinions I see written on it seems to rely on digs at 'animal rights zealots', the slippery slope fallacy, then dies it's death (usually early on) by Godwin's Law.

Your own arguments are much stronger, Jed. Let's have a dispassionate and open-minded look at the facts.

Zackly. Although it is animal rights. I copped a hiding about BSL and docking but it all came to pass. This will too.

Go Peke!! You good thing you

People seem to say I am saying there is nothing wrong with purebred dogs. Incorrect. I am saying - get the proof. Not of a couple of crook dogs, we know that, but of a whole breed, or of a good percentage.

I have no idea why people fail to believe that AR has anything to do with this. At every point, they are telling us what they are doing, yet we are not hearing.

"As the surplus of cats and dogs (artificially engineered by centuries of forced breeding) declined, eventually companion animals would be phased out, and we would return to a more symbiotic relationship - enjoyment at a distance."

-- Ingrid Newkirk, "Just Like Us? Toward a Notion of Animal Rights", Harper's, August 1988, p. 50

Edited March 16, 2012 by Jed

[Crisovar]

Of course they can

Pugs

[puglvr]

Yep, pugs have titles in Agility, Obedience, tracking, ET, Flyball and Dances with Dogs.

Not bad for a breed who can't breath, walk or whelp ont their own. But hey, what would us breeders know.

And just for the record, at Noorat on the weekend the judge commented on my dog's lovely open nostrils, "just like your others". Must be doing something right.

[HaughtyMcNaughty]

I've got my asbestos undies on. ;)

You know what? I think this is a GOOD thing. I look at some of those targetted breeds and shake my head and my guess is I"m not alone.

You are not alone. And judges have been overlooking some of these things for years.

Well said!

[Salukifan]

Yep, pugs have titles in Agility, Obedience, tracking, ET, Flyball and Dances with Dogs.

Not bad for a breed who can't breath, walk or whelp ont their own. But hey, what would us breeders know.

And just for the record, at Noorat on the weekend the judge commented on my dog's lovely open nostrils, "just like your others". Must be doing something right.

Yep, most of them on only a handful of dogs :laugh:

Has anyone suggested for one minute that every individual dog in ANY of the targeted breeds is a walking congenital disaster area? Nope.

And did the Pug that got BOB pass the vet check at Crufts. Yep, it did.