Reporting Incidents To State Bodies

[Vickie]

I had to attend a meeting at Dogs NSW yesterday as I was called as a witness to an incident at a trial. The incident was regarding mistreatment of a dog. IMO, the discipline decided on, a warning, was appropriate for the out of character And relatively mild incident.

Afterwards I took my pup for a walk & ran into a friend. We witnessed something else.

There were about 5 GSD's on the ground in a group. There was a bit of a commotion and one dog put another on the ground. No real aggression, just some noise. The owners ran in to stop it. The owner of the dog who was on top, grabbed it, pulled it away and repeatedly belted it across the back & side while yelling at it.

I just can't believe that I spent half my day testifying about something that was 100 times milder than what I witnessed with the GSD owner. How often does this happen? I can't stop thinking about that poor GSD and how many other dogs are treated like this with no consequences.

Do you see this in your chosen sport/breed community? Would you report it? If not, why not?

What about dog aggression at a trial show? Would you/have you reported that?

I reported a dog that bit me a few years ago at a trial. I don't regret it for a second. The dog bit others before me and the owner is currently on suspension, again, for his other dog being aggressive.

I have seen others bullied out of reporting things that really should be reported. I wonder how many others end up suffering for this bullying...

Edited June 30, 2012 by Vickie

[LizT]

Sadly you see this kind of thing often enough.

I also cringe when I see parents laying into their kids. I feel sorry for both the kids and the parent. Clearly they have been pushed over the line.

Maybe the dog owner feels if his reponse is not strong enough others will feel he isn't concerned about his dogs behaviour?? Not condoning it mind you, just trying to understand why one would go over the top like that?

[Vickie]

Sadly you see this kind of thing often enough.

Any ideas on why people don't report it? In a public area, it is difficult to report, but at a sanctioned show or trial, aren't we bound by rules to report it as members?

[Tralee]

Hi Vikie. :)

Unfortunately, reporting is cliqued and not correctly applied or fully understood by many committees.

There is a huge difference between full contact aggression and a simple bark or lunge.

Quite simply, many antecedents can cause a dog to react and very pathetically some people do exploit it.

The emphasis should be on management and control and, as you say, whether contact is made.

In some breeds, assertive protection, often misread as aggression, is the correct temperament for the standard.

How absurd then to call that behaviour aggressive and even more disppointing that committees then fail to discern it as correct, or use their power of discretion.

People need to be aware that their antics do not go unnoticed.

Good question.

[canine fun sports]

Any ideas on why people don't report it? In a public area, it is difficult to report, but at a sanctioned show or trial, aren't we bound by rules to report it as members?

Hi Vickie, and all,

My comments are mainly related to aggressive dog incidents. I have seen incidents that I feel, in retrospect, I should have reported. The retrospectivity comes when you see the dog reoffend. And these dogs do often reoffend.

Many years back Rabbit was bitten by a dog that had been in previous incidents and had not been reported. Becasue I was directly involved I had no hesitation in reporting this episode. My dog required several sutures to repair the bite wound.

I am, however, reluctant to report an incident in which I am not directly involved. I think it is up to the person involved and if they do not regard it as a serious enough case, then I guess that contributes to my hesitation.

But I have seen this from both sides of the story. I have been on the Dogs NSW aggressive dogs working party, and I have seen dogs reported and suspended for what I consider to be minor incidents that were really just a dog's way of comminication. No skin was broken, and no stitches were needed.

I would like to see clearer guidelines on what is an aggressive dog. Was there provocation (from the dog's point of view)? Was the so-called aggression just dog language for saying "bu%g*r off, this is my patch of ground", or "Stop staring at me - you look like you are going to attack me" (said to the keplie who was really just saying "you look like a sheep - I want to herd you.")

I have had a couple of incidents with my own dogs that might have been interpretted as aggressive dog incidents. They mainly had to do about territory, and guarding of food - it was actually some-one else's food and I did not know it was there.

The sorts of things I would consider as serious enough to report are

1. when skin is broken, especially if a vet visit or sutures are required.

2. when the dog that was attacked was not looking toward the dog that attacked (or looking at something the attacking dog considered to be its own property - eg food)

3. when the dog that attacks leaves some other activity to make the attack.

How these reports are dealt with, the knowledge of the people involved, and how to standardise these procedures is another topic altogether, and probably does need clearer guidelines from Dogs NSW. There are clear instructions on how the reporting should be done, but the decisions are largely left to people who have next to no training in dog aggression. It is simply the trial or show committee, and although they usually have lots of experience with dogs in general, they may know very little about aggression.

With regards to the mistreatment of dogs by humans, this once again is all relative.

I know of the incident that Vickie was asked to report on, although I did not witness it myself. However, at the same trial, I saw one very experienced handler show such displeasure in his dog's performance that it skulked from the ring on both occasions. The handler, at the time, did not even raise a finger but the body language and verbal reprimands had the dog crawling. This could not be reported, and yet, the dog was far more upset about what happened than in the incident that ended up being reported.

When it comes to these sorts of incidents, I often think the matter is better dealt with privately, with a few quiet words from some-one the person respects. And this is probably why many people do not report. Either they do not want to be seen as the bad guy, or they may feel that official reportage is not the best way to deal with it. But each case must be judged individually.

Cheers

[Sheridan]

I've never seen a dog mistreated at a show but I wonder what would happen if the witnesses to such an incident just bellowed out, 'Don't you bloody hit your dog!' in full view of everyone including stewards and judges. Embarrass the shit out of them.

[casowner]

I've never seen a dog mistreated at a show but I wonder what would happen if the witnesses to such an incident just bellowed out, 'Don't you bloody hit your dog!' in full view of everyone including stewards and judges. Embarrass the shit out of them.

This would be me, I wouldn't be able to help it

[Jumabaar]

Sadly you see this kind of thing often enough.

Any ideas on why people don't report it? In a public area, it is difficult to report, but at a sanctioned show or trial, aren't we bound by rules to report it as members?

I have had a dog attacked at a dog show. It was very early on and in all honesty I knew nothing about what was/was not acceptable. It was at a specially and I was told not to worry about it- it was witnessed by the entire club!! I wish I had known that it was possible to make the report back then because IMO it was bad enough to warrant it (the bitch was actually attached to my dog at one point!!)

I think things that happen at breed clubs are much less likely to be reported than in a more open group due to politics and I think that SUCKS!! There is one person in particular that I will be watching in the future because of a recent incident (where my back was unfortunately turned) because if there is a repeat I will be reporting them regardless of the personal outfall.

[brintey]

I have seen the mid-part of a full-on attack at a dog show – an amstaff broke free of its handler and went full-bore for a finnish lapphund which happened to be walking past.

I did not see the end result but I did see the amstaff after it had been hit on the head with a hammer in order to stop it attacking the lappie and its handler.

Someone told me later this amstaff was a repeat offender.

What bothers me about this level of aggression is that it is merely dealt with by DOGS NSW. If my dog was the victim of this sort of violent attack I would want it dealt with under the NSW Companion Animals Act – the dog to be neutered and kept in a childproof enclosure, and not allowed out without a muzzle.

[OSoSwift]

You have got to be kidding, hit on the head with a hammer??? If it needs that to stop it attacking it should be banned, and if not what the bloody hell was the owner thinking, hang on, what the bloody hell was the owner thinking full stop?

Edited July 1, 2012 by OSoSwift

[brintey]

OSoSwift from the way the owners of the attacking dog were carrying on afterwards, blaming everything under the sun except themselves, I would say the owners should be banned too!

But dogs like this might only attend shows for a few hours each week. What about the rest of the time? I would feel safer knowing that this dog was desexed, kept in secure housing and muzzled when out in public, not just banned from attending dog shows. Next time it might not happen when there are plenty of dog-savvy people around to stop it...

[OSoSwift]

You are right, people like that have no place at shows or in the dogs world! Disgraceful

[Vickie]

I wish I had not mentioned the dog to dog issue.

This post was really supposed to be about people mistreating dogs.

I think for the most part, people are aware of how to deal with dog to dog aggression and know their rights to either report, or not report it. And I agree with CFS, it is sometimes difficult to decide whether aggression occurs or not.

I don't feel this is the case with people mistreating their dogs. Someone hitting their dog is not difficult to justify. It is just wrong!

I have no idea whether I could or should have reported that lady belting the crap out of her GSD on dogs NSW grounds.

[Chezy]

I wonder at times at what level do people consider it reportable, i have at times hit a dog, just recently i had a foster go rolling across a field in a crate, she was getting worked up and I was trying to catch the crate, to get her attention I hit the crate and yes her , not hard , just to get attention, some people would have considered this hitting and reported me it is not by any means bashing , I have given Chopper and smack when he has taken half my hand with a treat , this is not bashing and he doesn't cringe when I raise a hand to him , in fact he wags his tail and comes closer :laugh:

Like people smacking kids, there is a difference between a smack and belting/ bashing , where is the line drawn

I have seen dogs cringe when a handler has raised a voice , i don't immediately think he/she bashes that dog, as I have a foster that was mistreated and if she thinks she is in trouble she will cringe , so dog reactions are not always telling of treatment by a current owner , or if the animal is just shy

[Sheridan]

I think the difference is that a child generally knows why he/she is getting a smack. A dog does not. And if you can't understand the difference and why a dog would still wag his tail and come closer after receiving a smack then perhaps you should rethink fostering.

[Chezy]

i didn't say he comes closer after a smack, i said I can raise my hand and he comes closer, as showing that I obv dont belt the crap out of my dogs all the time, so they aren't scared of me.

The smacks are usually a reaction to getting half a hand ripped off :laugh: and he knows why he got it as it is instant, then next treat is taken gently . So how can u say they don't know why they got a smack

read it properly

eta to correct a typo

Edited July 2, 2012 by Chezy & Chopper

[Sheridan]

i didn't say he comes closer after a smack, i said I can raise my hand and he comes closer, as showing that I obv dont belt the crap out of my dogs all the time, so they aren't scared of me.

The smacks are usually a reaction to getting half a hand ripped off :laugh: and he knows why he got it as it is instant, then next treat is taken gently . So how can u say they don't know why they got a smack

read it properly

eta to correct a typo

Amazing to me that people always assume someone hasn't read precisely what they wrote. I did and my opinion remains the same.

[megan_]

My sport is agility. I don't see people belting their dogs, but I do see lots of people giving their dog the cold shoulder if they don't perform which can be almost as cruel IMO, especially since many of the dogs are so in tune with their owner's feedback.

Vickie - you could report them to the RSPCA but also Dogs NSW (won't be a criminal offence, but they might be stopped from showing/competing).

[Chezy]

If ppl are always telling u to read properly , then maybe you should

your opinion doesn't matter to me

Edited July 2, 2012 by Chezy & Chopper

[Tralee]

I think the difference is that a child generally knows why he/she is getting a smack.

A dog does not.

And if you can't understand the difference and why a dog would still wag his tail and come closer after receiving a smack then perhaps you should rethink fostering.

I'm not an advocate for smacking children - huge power differential and abominably abusive.

It can't be said that children understand why they get smacked. They might have a sense of wrong (questionable) but they definately do not get the violence or hatred that comes with a smack.

It can't be said that dogs don't understand either. It is more correct to say we simply don't know.

Can't think of any other species that smacks for 'punishment.'

Punishment doesn't work anyways.

I don't think you can say its part of a training regime either as it is usually an emotional reflex done in anger.

SMACKING

Edited July 2, 2012 by Tralee