Lollipup Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) Just been thinking about this as I am thinking about what training adventures I would like to pursue in the future. Chester is my trick dog. I always had that planned for him - tricks and canine freestyle type moves. He loves it! Lola doesn't specialise in anything in particular but if she did, I would pick scent work as she loves it and is good at it. Chester doesn't seem to use his nose as much but I haven't tried training him in any scent work. Can you teach one dog multiple disciplines successfully without confusing the dog? Or is it better to have each dog specialise in one area? Is this affected by whether the dog is performing the skill as a career or for competition? For example, could a dog which is a schutzhund prospect also be trained tricks or service dog skills without becoming confused? Would it make the dog less reliable? Would it matter more for serious competition dogs than for pet dogs who don't compete? Or what about a dog who you are just training obedience too but sometimes you wanted to use clicker training and other times you wanted to use training in drive for the same or similar skills? From what I've heard, it would confuse the dog but I am interested to hear of other people's experiences and opinions :) Edited September 9, 2012 by Lollipup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 My dog does obedience, rally obedience and agility. After teaching the basics of each, she doesn't get confused :) If you want to be the top competitor in your chosen sport/discipline then I would say stick with one, but if you just want to have fun then dogs can definitely be allrounders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podengo Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Elsie does agility, rally, obedience & tracking and doesn't get confused :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlc Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 I agree with Wuffles, we don't compete in any dog sports so anything we do we do for fun. My guys have had fun learning obedience, agility, tracking, they love doing tricks etc but its funny even though they can all do each thing, they all excel at different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 So long as you keep reinforcing the different disciplines its no trouble. Abby does flyball and obedience without a problem. I did add in doggie dancing which caused a few obedience issues as she kept doing spins instead of returning to heel- purely because I rewarded the spins sooooo much more than the return to heel because I was teaching a spin. As soon as I started rewarding the heel again she was fine. She knew the difference between the two moves- but she was doing the one that had a better payment schedule :laugh: Abby looooooooorves learning new tricks but she also loooooooooves to run fast at flyball and do the same thing over and over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollipup Posted September 9, 2012 Author Share Posted September 9, 2012 Would it be different for schutzhund, since protection work is involved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollipup Posted September 9, 2012 Author Share Posted September 9, 2012 OH is making some flyball boxes at the moment and then Lola will be learning that :) I think she will love it so much! Would do it with Chester too but worried about his elbow (he has had an op for ED) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Would it be different for schutzhund, since protection work is involved? Shutzhund involves obedience as well as bite work. And i think obstacle work (so their version of agility). If the dog gets paid for something its just a new 'trick' so I cant see why they couldnt do 'tricks' that become a different dog sport. They dont understand that its something different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollipup Posted September 9, 2012 Author Share Posted September 9, 2012 So if you are training in drive for schutzhund and then taught the dog to offer behaviours and used free shaping, would that affect the obedience etc. with the dog possibly trying to offer lots of behaviours? I had a trainer tell me that would confuse a dog and effect precision so that's why I'm asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Panzer Attack! Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 I train Scooter differently all the time, he's my little experiment dog. I think it depends on your handling skills - I let him down when I don't train cleanly. At the moment we are doing much better in agility than obedience because I a) train the agi stuff more, and b) he knows the difference between "fun place" (agility club) and "place where heaps of dogs are around and I've been attacked" (obedience grounds). He never gets the commands for each discipline mixed up, but he does shut down when getting stressed, and I can guess a lot of trainers out there don't recognize when their dog stresses so think they're confused. It's like when clients tell you that Fido sits perfectly at home but "ignores me when I'm out cos he's being stubborn." Dogs KNOW when there's a difference! It's up to me to show him what the difference is and how he should act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 So if you are training in drive for schutzhund and then taught the dog to offer behaviours and used free shaping, would that affect the obedience etc. with the dog possibly trying to offer lots of behaviours? I had a trainer tell me that would confuse a dog and effect precision so that's why I'm asking. I think it would be OK if you have different environmental cues - eg often for shaping you are using a prop you want the dog to interact with or you are in a certain position (on a chair, kneeling etc) and this would cue what you are trying to do. As long as you aren't trying to teach the same behaviour two different ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 So if you are training in drive for schutzhund and then taught the dog to offer behaviours and used free shaping, would that affect the obedience etc. with the dog possibly trying to offer lots of behaviours? I had a trainer tell me that would confuse a dog and effect precision so that's why I'm asking. There's no reason why a Schuzthund dog wouldn't have been trained with shaping and taught to offer behaviours. Training in drive is the way I'd train all my dogs, what sport we do is just the exercise I ask them to do to earn the reward. Be that obedience, agility, tracking etc. Once that drive and focus is there, and they understand the game, what you ask them to do to earn the reward isn't so important (IMHO). At the moment we are doing much better in agility than obedience because I a) train the agi stuff more, and b) he knows the difference between "fun place" (agility club) and "place where heaps of dogs are around and I've been attacked" (obedience grounds). have you ever asked him to do obedience work at agility club?! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollipup Posted September 9, 2012 Author Share Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) Do you find it more precise when shaping to use a clicker? Could you successfully train tricks with clicker training and obedience with TID? Edited September 9, 2012 by Lollipup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Do you find it more precise when shaping to use a clicker? Could you successfully train tricks with clicker training and obedience with TID? I don't use a clicker with my dogs, I use a vocal marker and IMO they serve the same purpose. I always use a verbal marker for TID and I think it's really important in drive work to have a marker. I haven't noticed a difference in precision, if your timing is good it's good regardless of if you use a vocal marker or click :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xena98 Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Hi I do with Gabby clicker training and she does tricks ie handstand on walls and picking up coins and putting in a bottle (why no idea why someone would teach it but it sure was fun doing lol) She is also successful in obedience and agility gaining both champion titles in both fields and having plenty of wins in both fields. We are having a bash at dancing with dogs havent got to the competition yet and have done some rally o at training as well. My other coolie Xena and border collie Inka and my kelpie Milo did both obedience and agility so yep I think you can providing you know what your doing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollipup Posted September 9, 2012 Author Share Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) Do you find it more precise when shaping to use a clicker? Could you successfully train tricks with clicker training and obedience with TID? I don't use a clicker with my dogs, I use a vocal marker and IMO they serve the same purpose. I always use a verbal marker for TID and I think it's really important in drive work to have a marker. I haven't noticed a difference in precision, if your timing is good it's good regardless of if you use a vocal marker or click :) Oh yes I get that they are the same ie a marker. I should have been more clear. When using marker training with food, do you find you can shape more precise behaviours than when rewarding with a prey item? For example, if I am teaching a complex skill, I find it easier to mark and treat with food, than to mark and reward with a tug each time the dog achieves a step closer to the end goal. So if you were teaching a dog to fetch a drink from the fridge, marker training with treats and chaining the behaviours together is going to be a lot easier than rewarding the dog with a prey item each step of the way. Perhaps mainly because it saves time when the rewards are shorter and the dog can go straight back to concentrating on the task. And if its a complex skill I want the dog to be calm about what they are doing. Does this make more sense? In saying this, I haven't done a lot of TID so that's why I'm asking. As its something I am just starting to use more and learn to use in a more effective way. Also, I am referring to prey drive when I say training in drive. ETA: I also use a verbal marker when using the tug as a reward :) Edited September 9, 2012 by Lollipup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) If I had a super prey driven dog, I would probably shape some things in food drive and then add prey work once the behaviour was learnt. There is no reason why you can't have precision in prey drive. Everyone is different though! Edited September 9, 2012 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollipup Posted September 9, 2012 Author Share Posted September 9, 2012 Would you use the same method for a complex behaviour chain though? Like service dog skills? Sorry about all the questions, just can't picture it :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe001 Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Complex behaviour I would break down to manageable parts. I once taught an amazing play dead (useless I know but still cool) using a clicker in a few days. I started with a head turn, then the leaning body, then the fall, then the stillness, then twitching legs, then final still. I have also done schultzhund (but not to a competition standard) and the obedience was almost the same as when I did normal obedience. The tracking I did the same as when I was training tracking under a competition tracking person and protection had no comparision as the helper was always dressed for the part so no confusion with other disciplines. The sch people trained differently but had no issues with me as long as I got the same result. But I never used the clicker in front of them. I did my obedience at home off lead using a clicker and didn't take dog to classes until he was proficient. I did use a choke but never tightened it as he was clicker-trained to heel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 I think it is more confusing for the handler :laugh: Each discipline trains differently, sometimes even within each discipline there are different methods of training and handling a particular exercise or sequence. Where you may have issues is if the method you are using for one discipline conflicts with the method you are using in another discipline. In mindset for the handler as well as for the dog. So the best thing is to try to understand your chosen method and make sure you don't have conflicts in your chosen sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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