Christina Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 There is nothing much you can do, she is going to get this dog. Too many questions & she will forget. Faced with cute puppy all sense goes out window. Stick to have the parents been hip scored & PRA tested. That's about as good as it gets & its pot luck about the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCheekyMonster Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 There is nothing much you can do, she is going to get this dog. Too many questions & she will forget. Faced with cute puppy all sense goes out window. Stick to have the parents been hip scored & PRA tested. That's about as good as it gets & its pot luck about the rest. what makes me angry more than ANYTHING they have had a pup every xmas for 3 years.... people like this should be jailed.... she chases after the pups with a cloth to wipe their mouth after they drink :S she is a germaphobe.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) They did say because they didn't want their pups bred from they are coming from interstate... but i just dont think its good to do at such a young age for a dog you won't be able to guarantee the height/growth of the earlier a pup is desexed the taller it grows in comparison to an undesexed sibling. think I read a paper on that it also contributes to severity of any joint disorders eg hip displacia plus the incontinance problems Edited October 12, 2012 by asal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missymoo Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Where do they go when they grow up?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 you can start with hip and elbow scores. but suspect Hybrid vigor. will be quoted as the guarantee of good health unfortunately.you could ask how often does it need clipping. if told none, what a mess that one will end up in. if she doesnt intend to learn clipping it herself, im told its costs my friend $90 a session. more if she doesnt make sure is washed and no knots before she takes it there. hip pocket pain might slow the decision down maybe? If Hybrid Vigour is quoted explain that true Hybrd Vigour only exists in many generations of "survival of the fittest" (ie. the Heinz mutt) and not in domestic planned breeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brookestar Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Is the breeder desexing him? Sounds like their heart might be in the right place, not letting the pups go to new homes with any chance of them being used for breeding, they just need a bit if further education! Or maybe they simply don't want their pups used to breed in opposition to them. The Australian Labradoodle assocation does require all of there dogs to be desexed before they are sold, unless they are going to approved people. They do health check all dogs, and were doing some tests at a higher level well before the individual breeds were. I do not support them and do not believe in them. I think the attempts to make this breed are dead and gone and proven to fail. Although this group is doing all they can to become a registered breed, and there is a chance that they might eventually make it, not that I would be going anywhere near them. But they are doing health tests, more than standard breeds require. They do not desex to enable them to breed more, it is to make sure they are not been bred in inappropriate ways. Shelters desex at 8 weeks as well. Do you want them to rehome all of there animals to people who have no idea of how to handle dogs, let alone an entire dog and just let them breed like wild fire. Free desexing vouchers failed, as less than 25% ever went back and of those that did over 90% had already had a litter. Of course there are risks of early desexing, but in inappropriate hands the simple fact is it is better for the dogs to be desexed. The benefits outweight the risks unless they are in the hands of experienced people. It is for this reason that shelters desex and any responsible breeder who cannot control exactly who is going to be handling the dogs would do the same. I certainly know some kennel club breeders who desex at 8 weeks prior to sale for this purpose. No BYB would bother to desex dogs at a young age, it costs too much money and they could not care less about what happens to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Panzer Attack! Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I can think of one massive puppy farm that desexes to erase competition (although they fluff on about some other b/s reason on the website). They don't breed true. They grow either too big or too small. Their coats are ridiculous. As someone in the animal industry, I think I have met ONE person that was happy with their custom ordered oodle (and it fear barked at everyone in the clinic, non-stop, all day ). I could rant about these dogs all day. I meet heaps of purebred dogs and rescue dogs that are lovely, and I've met a handful of truly nice oodles. I have no idea why so many people think they are the ideal dog!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) It is for this reason that shelters desex and any responsible breeder who cannot control exactly who is going to be handling the dogs would do the same. I certainly know some kennel club breeders who desex at 8 weeks prior to sale for this purpose. Rubbish. It simply is NOT in the best interests of the animal from a growth and health perspective. Responsible buyers WILL overwhelmingly desex their pets and the dogs benefit from their hormones as they grow. Giant breeds desexed at 6 weeks? I shudder at the thought. Edited October 12, 2012 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCheekyMonster Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 It is for this reason that shelters desex and any responsible breeder who cannot control exactly who is going to be handling the dogs would do the same. I certainly know some kennel club breeders who desex at 8 weeks prior to sale for this purpose. Rubbish. It simply is NOT in the best interests of the animal from a growth and health perspective. Responsible buyers WILL overwhelmingly desex their pets and the dogs benefit from their hormones as they grow. Giant breeds desexed at 6 weeks? I shudder at the thought. agree 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) you can start with hip and elbow scores. but suspect Hybrid vigor. will be quoted as the guarantee of good health unfortunately.you could ask how often does it need clipping. if told none, what a mess that one will end up in. if she doesnt intend to learn clipping it herself, im told its costs my friend $90 a session. more if she doesnt make sure is washed and no knots before she takes it there. hip pocket pain might slow the decision down maybe? If Hybrid Vigour is quoted explain that true Hybrd Vigour only exists in many generations of "survival of the fittest" (ie. the Heinz mutt) and not in domestic planned breeding. Thats not 'hybrid vigor'. thats defective gene culling. true hybrid vigor is the crossing of completely unrelated breeds, eg Hereford x angus, for example. the resulting calves can weigh up to 75 kg more than their respective purebred calves. mulitily that over a couple of hundred an thats pretty significant additional income. it is a very well known practice to get heavier calves at an earlier age. but keeping the x bred's and breeding from them does not have the same effect the only way to still get an effect, albeit in a reduced level is a third cross to another unrelated breed. but thats the end of the line. to continue you need the purebreeds to cross with each other again. So the purebred seed stock as the cattle producers call them needs to be maintained, bulls recently sold to $20,000 to be used for just that purpose. the extreme example are the meat chickens, the two breeds in their pure form grow and mature normally. the cross bred chicks cannot survive to adulthood, they grow so fast and become so heavy their bones can no longer support the weight until they cannot walk if they are not processed at the optimum age for slaughter. used to work there and some took them home to rescue. every one of them became a cripple. thats how strongly hybrid vigor can be. the basic idea in dog breeding though is to reduce the incidence of Homozygous genes and thus the influence of as many recessive genes as possible so they cannot express in the pups. the catch though is instead of selecting for the ones without the deletrious recessive you have instead created a population of carriers which when mated with another unknown status carrier your back to creating homozoygous litters. the catch in the champion to champion unrelated sires only, your skirting round ever knowing which do not carry the genes you didnt want. thats where line and in breeding came in, by mating sire to daughter or mother to son you could discover if the sire or the dam were not carriers. those which were could then be removed from the breeding group. line breeding you will never know for sure which is the carrier. it has been a very successful across the board dna testing tool (that tested for every gene in the parent, unlike the single tests for the few there are tests available now we have the new very limited tool on the block) since man began breeding livestock, but the animal rights group removed that one too now. Edited October 12, 2012 by asal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) It is for this reason that shelters desex and any responsible breeder who cannot control exactly who is going to be handling the dogs would do the same. I certainly know some kennel club breeders who desex at 8 weeks prior to sale for this purpose. Rubbish. It simply is NOT in the best interests of the animal from a growth and health perspective. Responsible buyers WILL overwhelmingly desex their pets and the dogs benefit from their hormones as they grow. Giant breeds desexed at 6 weeks? I shudder at the thought. agree 100% also agree 100% the people who do this tend to be working on the army's hypothis, to work their figures from the lowest demoninator in their force. ignoring the fact that 99 out of 100 people really do, do the right thing. The people who do desex at such a young age prefer to do so despite proven not to be in the puppies best interests because like the army they are working on addressing the lowest denominator in the human equation. tough luck for the affected, both the dog and its owner. eg Met a friend's gorgeous Akita pup this morning - lovely type and nature, absolutely gorgeous pup, which her proud owner had waited ages for. The pup's "responsible" breeder, insisted on desexing her at 8 weeks, prior to leaving home. My friend's vet wrote a letter, asking for this to be delayed to let the bitch mature a little first, and a desexing contract was offered, but to no avail. She was desexed. In the months since then, the poor pup's vulva has not grown and developed normally, and the constant pooling of urine has caused an ongoing maintenance nightmare, with infections, vet trips and constant cleaning after every time the bitch pees. Which of course can't be done when the owner is at work. The pup has been in constant distress at the smell and discomfort, as has the owner, not to mention the embarrassment whenever the pup has rolled on her back for a tummy rub from friends, revealing unsightly, smelly genitalia. Certainly hope that this breeder is pleased with destroying the quality of life for this poor girl - understand that as it was an interstate sale, she couldn't be sure that the new owner was totally responsible, but why not do a refund on provision of a desexing certificate, or just do a hysterectomy, leaving the essential hormones intact? Any breeder that desexes such a large breed as an Akita at 8 weeks should not be breeding IMO - they certainly don't care about their dogs. Edited October 13, 2012 by asal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) the above and this are from a very old thread. The vet's experience has absolutely nothing to do with the puppy's condition. The vet did an ovariohysterectomy - removal of the ovaries stops the manufacture of oestrogen. Without the oestrogen being present for the physical growth of the puppy, her normal development ceased the moment those ovaries were removed. She has been left with an immature vulva, and will always have the vulva of a puppy, even when she is adult - the same thing happens with large breed males - their penis never achieves normal appearance and size, which can look really silly on a great dane for instance! She will have problems for the rest of her life, and no amount of artificial hormones will make up for her lack of development. Poor baby! I've seen the same in 2 large breed bitch puppies. I'm sure the breeder was doing what they considered to be the responsible thing, with their Vets support. I could never do it to such a young puppy though, my Vet refuses anyway. Breeders really are being put between a rock and a hard place. my vet wont either for the reasons above and the joint growth problems that can occur as well Edited October 13, 2012 by asal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brookestar Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 It is for this reason that shelters desex and any responsible breeder who cannot control exactly who is going to be handling the dogs would do the same. I certainly know some kennel club breeders who desex at 8 weeks prior to sale for this purpose. Rubbish. It simply is NOT in the best interests of the animal from a growth and health perspective. Responsible buyers WILL overwhelmingly desex their pets and the dogs benefit from their hormones as they grow. Giant breeds desexed at 6 weeks? I shudder at the thought. You said it yourself, RESPONSIBLE BUYERS will desex, yes, but unfortunately we live in a society where the vast majority are not responsible. If we lived in such a responsible society, we would not have dogs that are rejected, discarded, in which puppy mills existed, etc, etc. If we have majority responsible buyers, then why are the vast majority of dogs not from registered breeders and why are registered breeders against having to be accredited, checked out, etc, etc. I can tell you of many instances of kennel club breeders who have been closed down by the council, RSPCA and the like for dogs living in total filth, covered in fleas, maggots eating from wounds, totally wormed infested and the like. They were initally reported to the kennel club who did nothing at all, saying not our problem. If it was as simple as just going to any kennel club registered breeder it would be nice. There are kennel club registered breeders selling pups in pet shops, etc. How is that good for the dog?? To be stuck in a pet shop window?? To be impulse bought before christmas. People discard dogs like it is a fashion accessory. They get rid of them, because they have to move, they get rid of them because they supposedly cannot afford them any more. People do not get rid of children like that, so why get rid of dogs. They discard them because they cannot be bothered selling them. If you have evidence that proves that the vast majority of dogs sold from shelters were desexed by owners voluntarily then the government would love to see it. The simple fact is governments made these laws as the fact is the VAST MAJORITY were not desexed, and the few that were had already been bred from by people who knew nothing at all about breeding - backyard breeding, that you disagree with and yet here you are encouraging and promoting it. I do not desex my dogs at a young age. I know what to do to look after them. But do I trust the average person, not on my life. They do not even know how to teach a dog to sit, to take it for a walk every day, etc. But you claim that they can be taught to keep to a bitch safe and under 100% control around undesexed male dogs while on heat. I would love to know HOW you propose to teach the average idiotic dog owner how to do that. They cannot keep them under control 99.9% of the time, how on earth do you propse they do so when the dog is entire. I do not and never will believe it is in a dogs best interest to be bred from at 4 months of age, which is when small breeds can begin to enter heat cycles. I do not believe it is in any dogs best interests to be mated to any old dog wandering the street and nor do I believe it is in the interests of dogs to be bred from every cycle, yet the fact is that is what happens when they are in the hands of the average dog owner. As simple as that. Produce the evidence that you claim to have, and governments will consider changing the legislation. Perhaps you first need to start to look at why dogs end up in pounds and shelters in the first place. People do not discard children, so why dogs, if they are all such responsibe people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 (edited) It is for this reason that shelters desex and any responsible breeder who cannot control exactly who is going to be handling the dogs would do the same. I certainly know some kennel club breeders who desex at 8 weeks prior to sale for this purpose. Rubbish. It simply is NOT in the best interests of the animal from a growth and health perspective. Responsible buyers WILL overwhelmingly desex their pets and the dogs benefit from their hormones as they grow. Giant breeds desexed at 6 weeks? I shudder at the thought. You said it yourself, RESPONSIBLE BUYERS will desex, yes, but unfortunately we live in a society where the vast majority are not responsible. I And the "vast majority" are not sold pups by responsible breeders who vet buyers. Perhaps you might like to do a poll but most breeders I know have NOT had issues with pups not being desexed when the time came. If the issue is the dogs' capacity to breed then a tubal ligation or a vasectomy will produce that result. No need to take the rest and frankly the dogs' NEED hormones to develop normally. You've just been provided with two good examples of why. Desex everything.. a great result, except for the dogs themselves and for the future of dogs as pets. I do not consider a dog that's incontinent at 12 months of age to be an acceptable outcome of juvenile desexing. I've given the alternative and it can be done. Edited October 14, 2012 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 brookstar? "I do not desex my dogs at a young age. I know what to do to look after them. But do I trust the average person, not on my life. They do not even know how to teach a dog to sit, to take it for a walk every day, etc. But you claim that they can be taught to keep to a bitch safe and under 100% control around undesexed male dogs while on heat. I would love to know HOW you propose to teach the average idiotic dog owner how to do that. They cannot keep them under control 99.9% of the time, how on earth do you propse they do so when the dog is entire. I do not and never will believe it is in a dogs best interest to be bred from at 4 months of age, which is when small breeds can begin to enter heat cycles. I do not believe it is in any dogs best interests to be mated to any old dog wandering the street and nor do I believe it is in the interests of dogs to be bred from every cycle, yet the fact is that is what happens when they are in the hands of the average dog owner. As simple as that. " Looks like maybe you need a chill pill. Ive had chi's since 78 and i have NEVER seen a bitch comming into season befor 8 months of age. Comming means just that. so actully fertile and ready to mate about 9 monts males? another matter I remember well my shocked friend nancy gate catching one of her pups busy at 7 months 2 weeks and and to her utter astonishment the bitch had pups to him. as for people not desexing their pups, again you need a chill pill. I have lost count of the bitch puppies I have loaned out on breeders terms alone who were desexed at their first season despite it was agreed I would get a breeding to her on her second season. why not? because its too annoying have a bitch in season. as for people who actually pay the asking price for a good dog. Every one that bought their pup as a pet HAS had it desexed. believe it or not 99 percent of people who have bought a puppy from me wanted it for a pet AND DESEXED them as agreed when they were 6 to 9 moths old. BOYS AND GIRLS. gee you have a low opinion of your own species. But then the general public now have a pretty low opinion of breeders too now thanks to all the mud slinging about backyarders and puppy farmers. its agreed that anyone who bought one of mine could call anytime they needed it boarded, just wont board others though, or couldnt keep it for some reson only has to call. very few have had to rehome, accidents and problems can happen but frankly I tend to suspect the majority of dumpers got theirs cheaply and dont respect them as a result. I well remember as a child my uncle used to breed persian cats, he kept the best kitten and gave the others away it wasnt long before the neighbourhool had unkempt ungroomed persians lolling around. my mum convinced him to charge a good price for his kittens and all of a sudden they were 'valuable' and thus valued and washed, groomed and beautiful. people have to feel their pet has value not only in their eyes but others too. that helps a lot. there are tens of MILLIONS of much loved well cared for pets. you ranters forget its only a fraction that ends up in the pounds. your missing the big picture to the misery of for example the too early desexed babies and those who have to care for them for the rest of their lives . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Funnily enought now ive chucked in the towel. have two txt messages complete with photos, two of my pups will be doing their first shows end of this year. yep........I sold em on main register n nope wont be desexed. they are beginners with their first registered pup and thrilled to bits with their darlings. I so fear for them, they want their kids to have the fun of showing their pup, I HAVE so tried to warn them what will happen if they win. others have discovered the natives only tend to be friendly if you are losing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) what has always puzzled me about the oodle is if you want the advandage of the poodle why not buy the real deal? there is NO lottery will it shed or not. it never will. they are amazing dogs and they come in every size available as well? and their coats are bred to be the less matting than you will see in the x's its beyond me. if you want a oodle GET A POODLE Edited October 15, 2012 by asal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) Then there is whose defination of 'ethical' you believe. I know you really cant tell by how nice the person or the set up. for example there are places where roll the mum over and there is not one that has not had their pups delivered by ceaser. not because the breed has a problem. the breeder and the vet firmly believe its better to pay for a ceaser and avoid losing any pups. the same vet also belives its perfectly fine to not only remove the pups but the entire uterus after delivery when its the second or third litter. no bitch there ever gets to deliver for herself not even first time mums, so they wake up to "what is that attacking me" some pups die because their new mum is terrified of them, but hey the breeder is absolutely ethical. never have more than three litters , most only two. never sells any on main register. most dont even go on limit, there are three prices and 99% decide on not even limit. any future mums if they mature and develop a fault that may cause an unhappy buyer the cost of raising her is recouped by x breeding and selling the designers with their hybrid vigor. n again ceasered n desexed at the same time. I know the vet who does this as routine and has trained his customers this is best practice. I know because I met him. I darent say where or who. so its not just one breeder doing this and believing this is 'ethical' I know my vet would never do that. As he said, you have removed a huge resevoir of nutrient and blood of the now nursing mum, if you want to save money on desexing her on delivery, instead of when she has recovered from nursing and then desexed, dont come to me. Edited October 15, 2012 by asal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCheekyMonster Posted October 16, 2012 Author Share Posted October 16, 2012 what has always puzzled me about the oodle is if you want the advandage of the poodle why not buy the real deal? there is NO lottery will it shed or not. it never will. they are amazing dogs and they come in every size available as well? and their coats are bred to be the less matting than you will see in the x's its beyond me. if you want a oodle GET A POODLE Well she liked the face of the oodle so I said get a lagotto, they look like what the oodle fan club are trying to mimic IMO...but no not good enough a unpredictable mutt is what they would much prefer... i give up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 i give up Suggest you do this to keep your blood pressure under control. At a certain point you have to admit defeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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