dancinbcs Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I just do not see the difference between and backyard breeder and a registered breeder who does not show but breeds untested dogs There is still one important difference and that is if you buy a puppy without papers, you have absolutely no comeback if it turns out to be a crossbred. Many breeds look very similar as puppies and purebred puppies can be difficult to tell from crossbred ones especially if you are no expert. If you have a registered puppy with matching microchip that turns out to nothing like you thought you were getting at least you can sue the breeder. Other than that there is not much difference between unscrupulous registered breeders and bybs. There are however many ANKC breeders who do not show but still health test, are members of breed clubs and keep abreast of other health issues in the breed that cannot be tested for. It it the networking of ethical breeders that is most important and in any breed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) Should also pint out some of the testing that can be done isn't available in every state either . The vets can bitch all about what should be done but until they also provide the facilities & experienced staff then many breeders are left with the added expense of flying east or if lucky to have a strong bunch of breeders pay towards getting a qualified person over to do a health test day . I flew my dogs east to have a very basic test done that should be available in every state but isn't . Cost well luckily i was there for shows so pre booked but if i didn't show there was a near $1000 exercise just to get a simple test done for 1 dog . Our state use to have the facility at the major teaching school but the brainless idiots never trained other people to do it nor did they bother to repair the equipment. It took them over 6 months to reply to my emails asking over & over when they could do it to be finally told the above . This teaching school also would be the first to complain that breeders aren't testing Edited January 13, 2014 by showdog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) For example there is no recognized national scheme or standardized testing for patellas and while more standardized (in terms of rhe testing run by a small number of breed clubs) for hearts either. Until recently people in nsw who want heart testing generally had to go to Melbourne. There are now to my knowledge a total of 3 (maybe 4?) cardiology specialists in total in this country. One of the DNA tests for my breed is not available in Australia as the company that holds the patent does not offer it. And because they have the Aust rights I can't send a blood sample overseas to the US counterpart to be done !!! Edited October 17, 2012 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) For example there is no recognized national scheme or standardized testing for patellas and while more standardized (in terms of rhe testing run by a small number of breed clubs) for hearts either. One of the DNA tests for my breed is not available in Australia as the company that holds the patent does not offer it. And because they have the Aust rights I can't send a blood sample overseas to the US counterpart to be done !!! It truly is so stupid that we are expected to do all the testing yet it is often made so hard . I think many people really have no idea how hard it can be & frustrating to do the right thing . Although it seems bizarre you can't send your results overseas to be tested . We use the UK for most Edited October 17, 2012 by showdog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Trying to get my dogs tested has been a complicated, frustrating and time consuming process. Not to mention expensive. The basics like HD are easy. But some of the others have only been done through sheet pig headedness and some have actually taken years to successfully arrange!! They don't make it easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alkhe Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I just do not see the difference between and backyard breeder and a registered breeder who does not show but breeds untested dogs While there is more to breeding than showing and health testing, I tend to agree with you. In my opinion, pieces of paper and paid membership to an organisation don't make a good breeder. Being a registered breeder and an irresponsible and careless breeder aren't mutually exclusive things, unfortunately. There are some registered breeders that I would basically consider to be BYBs that give you pedigrees. Hell, there are some that are no more than puppy farms, really. I'd steer clear of anyone un-registered as a first cut, and then eliminate the breeders that don't do what I consider are requirements and best practice for tha tbreed, when selecting a pup/breeder. Bearing in mind, as others have said, not all breeds have health tests available for whatever that breed is predisposed to (if anything). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I just do not see the difference between and backyard breeder and a registered breeder who does not show but breeds untested dogs While there is more to breeding than showing and health testing, I tend to agree with you. In my opinion, pieces of paper and paid membership to an organisation don't make a good breeder. Being a registered breeder and an irresponsible and careless breeder aren't mutually exclusive things, unfortunately. As I said above "Legislation will never take the place of ethics and morality". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alkhe Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I just do not see the difference between and backyard breeder and a registered breeder who does not show but breeds untested dogs While there is more to breeding than showing and health testing, I tend to agree with you. In my opinion, pieces of paper and paid membership to an organisation don't make a good breeder. Being a registered breeder and an irresponsible and careless breeder aren't mutually exclusive things, unfortunately. As I said above "Legislation will never take the place of ethics and morality". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Colour doppler echocardiography costs $400 per dog and is available (to the best of my knowledge) in one city in Australia - Melbourne. Given the extremely low incidence of heart issues in Whippets and the cost and limited availability of comprehensive heart testing, I don't think ANKC breeders should be judged as no better than BYBs for not heart testing their breeding dogs using this technology. Others may disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalteseLuna Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 For example there is no recognized national scheme or standardized testing for patellas and while more standardized (in terms of rhe testing run by a small number of breed clubs) for hearts either. Until recently people in nsw who want heart testing generally had to go to Melbourne. There are now to my knowledge a total of 3 (maybe 4?) cardiology specialists in total in this country. One of the DNA tests for my breed is not available in Australia as the company that holds the patent does not offer it. And because they have the Aust rights I can't send a blood sample overseas to the US counterpart to be done !!! That is simply ridiculous. It's why A. there shouldn't be gene patents and B. there should be more than 1 lab in Australia offering genetic testing. Colour doppler echocardiography costs $400 per dog and is available (to the best of my knowledge) in one city in Australia - Melbourne. Given the extremely low incidence of heart issues in Whippets and the cost and limited availability of comprehensive heart testing, I don't think ANKC breeders should be judged as no better than BYBs for not heart testing their breeding dogs using this technology. Others may disagree. If there are not the facilities for the health testing then they couldn't/shouldn't be made mandatory. DNA tests are completely different as anyone can take a blood or saliva sample and get it sent to a lab (by a vet) and it should be fairly inexpensive given the technology- particularly for a commercial lab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 DNA tests are completely different as anyone can take a blood or saliva sample and get it sent to a lab (by a vet) and it should be fairly inexpensive given the technology- particularly for a commercial lab. Anybody can take the swab but unless taken by an authorised collector or a vet it won't be recognised officially. Also, as showdog pointed out, some tests are not able to be done in Australia due to patents owned by other labs. DNA seems very simple but it isn't always the case in reality, depending upon your breed/s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 The ANKC ( state CC's ) also do not have the means of storing the information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalteseLuna Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) DNA tests are completely different as anyone can take a blood or saliva sample and get it sent to a lab (by a vet) and it should be fairly inexpensive given the technology- particularly for a commercial lab. Anybody can take the swab but unless taken by an authorised collector or a vet it won't be recognised officially. Also, as showdog pointed out, some tests are not able to be done in Australia due to patents owned by other labs. DNA seems very simple but it isn't always the case in reality, depending upon your breed/s. Yup am aware about the collection - still any vet can take blood or saliva and send it to a lab. I also know about the patent issues and the current monopoly in Australia. I said/meant that it should be easy given the technology. But then only for tests that are verified and not all breeds have tests available/verified. But if there are... what can the justification be to not preform testing? Hopefully AU government will overturn gene patents and then other labs can open. It's slightly annoying seeing a test that in all reality costs about $10-15 to preform costing $150 or more for the breeder/customer. Most of the tests are based on fairly simple technology by today's standards :) As a genetics major I am perhaps a little biased :) Edited October 17, 2012 by MalteseLuna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 It's slightly annoying seeing a test that in all reality costs about $10-15 to preform costing $150 or more for the breeder/customer. Most of the tests are based on fairly simple technology by today's standards :) One of the reasons I currently use OFA for my genetic testing.. After a MAJOR hassle with a company here where after 2 years I still had no results. While I recognize it doesn't meet the ANKC's guidelines fully as I collect the sample myself, I am at least happy with the quality and correctness of the test, they are much cheaper, fast, and much easier to work with (I have a lot of respect for that organization too and wish we had something like it here). And this is for the one that is 'easy'!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeopener Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I just do not see the difference between and backyard breeder and a registered breeder who does not show but breeds untested dogs No neither do I. I think it's a great tool n any breeder no matter what sort should jump at the chance to add another tool to their tool kits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I was somewhat taken aback recently when I had to pay a separate $10 fee for the privilege of having eye results put onto an ANKC - AVA ACES Eye Examination form. He would have written them on an eye certificate anyway but for this specific form it cost extra. Bit cheeky really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeopener Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I would love a database world wide for each breeds health results n pedigrees to be kept on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wazzat Xolo Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I have a very old breed and sadly people have not tetsed or formed the relevant sharing and testing databases to help the breed, we are doing the very basics now, but for a very old breed, there is not a lot known about the health status and very few tests available that are breed specific, none the less I will test and record what i can for future reference, many are in this line of thinking, so hopefully in the future it will help others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Yup am aware about the collection - still any vet can take blood or saliva and send it to a lab. Saliva? What DNA tests are done on a dog's saliva? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Yup am aware about the collection - still any vet can take blood or saliva and send it to a lab. Saliva? What DNA tests are done on a dog's saliva? I'm thinking they mean from the inside of the mouth......but don't quote me :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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