To Vaccinate Or Not?

[Wundahoo]

As far as I'm aware, the Kennel Cough component of the annual vaccine doesn't tend to last more than 12 months in the system. Do titre tests cover this component?

KC is not able to be titre tested as it is a bacterin and as with our flu vaccine, the make up of the vaccines changes each year. This is why many dogs that have already been vaccinated for KC will get a different strain.

I do not use KC vaccination at all. Kennel Cough is generally a mild, self limiting infection which usually runs a 10-14 day course and most dogs recover spontaneously. The infection often causes more stress and distress for owners than for dogs because of the sound of the cough. People think that if they coughed like that then they would have to be really ill...... dogs cough in a different way to us and because of their different anatomy it has a much louder and harsher sound, hence the "owner distress".

Many vets now actively discourage the use of antibiotics to treat KC because of the issue involving antibiotic resistance, just as most doctors now wont medicate patients for mild upper respiratory infections.

Of course there are some dogs which do need some antibiotic help to get over the infection but most vets will simply suggest to owners that they manage the dog at home with rest, good food and perhaps some humidification to help release any secretions that might be a bit hard for the dog to shift.

[huski]

Wundahoo I totally agree re KC. I haven't vaccinated for KC in years. I always request a C3 vacc.

[Erny]

Wundahoo I totally agree re KC. I haven't vaccinated for KC in years. I always request a C3 vacc.

Me neither. In fact, never have. And yet my dog is not only exposed to other dogs at times through the training we do, but because of my job, I'm always coming home with *other dogs* all over my clothing.

One bout of CC when he was about 4 months of age. Cough was first apparent symptom. A bit of lethargy in the next 24 hours. Was symptomatically fine within 48 hours and completely bounced back by day 3. Only used Active Manuka Honey.

There was one other time I suspected CC and that was when he was about 2 or 3yo. But it was incredibly mild and barely a cough. Recovery was very fast. Used AMH and a syringe of Calendula Tea then too.

He's now 5.5yo.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Erny

[huski]

Wundahoo I totally agree re KC. I haven't vaccinated for KC in years. I always request a C3 vacc.

Me neither. In fact, never have.

Every vet I can remember going to vaccs with C5s until I found a good holistic vet who does C3. Until then I had to request a C3. I don't see the purpose in vaccinating for KC.

[Erny]

Wundahoo I totally agree re KC. I haven't vaccinated for KC in years. I always request a C3 vacc.

Me neither. In fact, never have.

Every vet I can remember going to vaccs with C5s until I found a good holistic vet who does C3. Until then I had to request a C3. I don't see the purpose in vaccinating for KC.

That's what the Vet Clinic I used back then did too. Were quite taken aback when I refused the C5 and insisted on C3. They weren't even sure they had one and had to go look in storage. Either that, or they had to order it in ….. I can't quite remember.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Erny

[Salukifan]

Every vet I can remember going to vaccs with C5s until I found a good holistic vet who does C3. Until then I had to request a C3. I don't see the purpose in vaccinating for KC.

If my dogs contract KC, they are out of all ANKC events for weeks. I also don't need my geriartic dogs exposed if at all possible. So they get the nose one. KC isn't going to kill them but if it hits at the wrong time, it would be bloody inconvenient. Eg. with a bitch due for a mating.

My personal view is that if you have your dogs in situations where they are in areas with a high density of dogs (such as shows and trials) its a good precaution, but it's not essential.

Ditto for dogs housed in kennel situations at any stage.

[huski]

The vaccs only cover two strains of KC and there are dozens. When I have vaccinated my dogs against KC they still ended up getting a strain of it when they went to a boarding kennel which stipulated all dogs must have a C5 vacc, so I do feel it's quite pointless.

It's been years since I vaccinated against KC and I've never had my dogs get it again.

Edited February 6, 2014 by huski

[Salukifan]

The vaccs only cover two strains of KC and there are dozens. When I have vaccinated my dogs against KC they still ended up getting a strain of it when they went to a boarding kennel which stipulated all dogs must have a C5 vacc, so I do feel it's quite pointless.

It's been years since I vaccinated against KC and I've never had my dogs get it again.

Same as the human flu vacc. I get that too. Flu I can handle but I prefer to avoid the nastier strains.

[Canine Coach]

(Please note; I have also put my request/comments below, on the Health forum)

I would appreciate assistance in putting together a list of VETS with contact details, (all states/cities) personally recommended by people on this forum

Please feel free to E Mail me privately, or if allowed on this forum, to list here, VETS in all states that are open to more modern methods/protocols.

My puppy buyers are encountering enormous resistance to titre testing from the various Vets they go to.

In fact 1 particular QLD. Vet argued strongly to one of my puppy buyers that they MUST protect their dog by having a yearly C#7 PLUS a yearly heartworm injection PLUS monthly worming. (Sarcastically speaking, I wondered if he also asked; "Would you like immune mediated diseases with that"?)

Recently, I rang a Vet I have used in the past, to see if he would do a titre on my dogs & on future puppy buyers dogs, after they complete their 14 month old C #3. He said he "had only ever reluctantly done 1 titre test on a very elderly dog that had a strong adverse reaction from it's yearly vaccination". He said that "the OWNER insisted on the titre even though that it cost $300 from ASAP in Melbourne" . He said although his own young dog "has severe immune related skin allergies, & is on cortisone for life, that his dog HAS to get yearly C 5 because it comes to work with him & may be exposed to diseases from patients dogs"

I told him about VETPATH in W.A. & he was temporarily speechless.

Resistance by Vets seems to be a very common reaction.

[huski]

CC when I lived in Brisbane I went to Animal Options who are a holistic vet clinic, not sure where your puppy buyer in QLD is but AO was great when I used them.

http://www.animaloptions.com.au

[luvmybulldog]

I changed vets in September last year after a bad experience with my usual vet with 2 of my dogs. Couldn't be happier - He actually listens to what I have to say when it comes to me taking the dogs in when I believe something is not right with any of them.

My link

I opted for the 3 year C3 and then we are going to titre test from there on. It's only a small practice with just my vet and a locum when he has time off and he was recommended to me by 6 or 7 people ( one who is a bulldog breeder who I phoned to ask ).

[Erny]

(Please note; I have also put my request/comments below, on the Health forum)

I would appreciate assistance in putting together a list of VETS with contact details, (all states/cities) personally recommended by people on this forum

Please feel free to E Mail me privately, or if allowed on this forum, to list here, VETS in all states that are open to more modern methods/protocols.

My puppy buyers are encountering enormous resistance to titre testing from the various Vets they go to.

In fact 1 particular QLD. Vet argued strongly to one of my puppy buyers that they MUST protect their dog by having a yearly C#7 PLUS a yearly heartworm injection PLUS monthly worming. (Sarcastically speaking, I wondered if he also asked; "Would you like immune mediated diseases with that"?)

Recently, I rang a Vet I have used in the past, to see if he would do a titre on my dogs & on future puppy buyers dogs, after they complete their 14 month old C #3. He said he "had only ever reluctantly done 1 titre test on a very elderly dog that had a strong adverse reaction from it's yearly vaccination". He said that "the OWNER insisted on the titre even though that it cost $300 from ASAP in Melbourne" . He said although his own young dog "has severe immune related skin allergies, & is on cortisone for life, that his dog HAS to get yearly C 5 because it comes to work with him & may be exposed to diseases from patients dogs"

I told him about VETPATH in W.A. & he was temporarily speechless.

Resistance by Vets seems to be a very common reaction.

Good grief! Especially to the 2nd story.

I'd happily recommend Dr Bob Cavey at Ultimate Veterinary Clinic. Telephone 8790 2425 Narre Warren South, VIC. If they tell him "Judi Buchan recommended him" he'll certainly understand where they're coming from :laugh: . Seriously though - I've recommended him to my Instructors and one of them travels one hour (each way) with her dogs to him, as she's found him down to earth, straight up, willing and able to work outside the square. She also gets her dogs titred via his clinic.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Erny

[Blackdogs]

I'm not a big fan of over-vaccinating, but I have to say that I've watched KC spread like wildfire through local populations and an outbreak in a kennel can be incredibly difficult to get rid of. While it's less serious in young, healthy dogs, older dogs can be adversely affected. Should the immunity of many to the more serious strains be considered for the safety of a few? If everyone stopped vaccinating against KC, wouldn't there be a much higher rate of affected dogs? Just thinking out loud.

[Erny]

The vaccination does not mean the dog won't contract it, though. Nor does it mean that the vaccinated dog can't bring it to the kennels on arrival.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Erny

[Wundahoo]

I'm not a big fan of over-vaccinating, but I have to say that I've watched KC spread like wildfire through local populations and an outbreak in a kennel can be incredibly difficult to get rid of. While it's less serious in young, healthy dogs, older dogs can be adversely affected. Should the immunity of many to the more serious strains be considered for the safety of a few? If everyone stopped vaccinating against KC, wouldn't there be a much higher rate of affected dogs? Just thinking out loud.

Yes it's possible that there could be a higher rate of affected dogs however it's more likely that a natural immunity would form and that many dogs would develop a "wild" type of protection. Naturally developed immunity is thought to be of greater strength than that which is developed via artificial means ie vaccination.

I strongly believe that vaccinations are necessary, particularly against the killer 3.... distemper, hepatitis and parvo, but I seriously question the routine and blanket administration of non core vaccines to each and every dog.

The WSAVA Vaccine Guidelines Group states several times "We should aim to vaccinate every animal with core vaccines, and to vaccinate each individual less frequently by only giving non-core vaccines that are necessary for that animal."

If a dog has reached an age and stage in its life where its immune system is unlikely to be able to ward off a dose of kennel cough then consider beginning a programme of annual kennel cough vaccinations for it, but until that time of life is reached perhaps it's wise to allow the dog's immune system to work the way that it was intended and to figure out for itself how to fight these lesser infections.

[alpha bet]

Just think about what Kennel Cough is.... basically a dog version of cold or mild flu...... more likely to affect a dog who has his immune system a bit weak therefore pups or old dogs possible more prone as would dogs who are under stress.... for example:

dog goes to a kennel and surrounded by strangers in a strange land = stress

but the same could be said for a dog who is unused to socialising with other dogs at a park or dog club = stress . moving house = stress. death in family = stress

KC is also airborne, we all know of cases where people might have 3 or 4 dogs but only one dog gets KC but perhaps a neighbours dog does to..... so ask yourself why does a kennel environment seem more of an issue.... after all a dog has to bring the KC into the kennel in the first place and this can happen whether the dog is vaccinated or not... and not all dogs will catch it?

Personally from my point of view and experience of running a boarding kennel for 20 years is that provided a dog is healthy to begin with then Kennel Cough is more an environmental issue - we accept C3 vaccinations as per AVA recommendations. Note we have NEVER had a case of kennel cough

so why is my environment so different?

1. We are a smaller structured kennel, only carry about 30 or so dogs... helps to reduce stress

2. We have all dogs (or those who want to anyway) going out into large grassed/treed paddocks to romp and play - often for 2-4 hours a day..... helps to burn off energy and hence reduce stress

3. We house the dogs in a mudbrick building with individual painted concrete inside and large sand runs outside - solid walls provide good natural insulation but still allows for easy natural ventilation

4. We don't use chemicals - dogs supposedly have 100,000 more nose receptors than humans, so think how disinfectant smells to us and then x 100,000.... certainly this would be an irritant to colds

5. We never pressure wash pens with dogs in, nor do we put dogs back into wet pens (they are outside playing remember) - hence dogs do not have to sleep around damp environment - bad for colds

6. We don't let them bark - achieved in a multi level system- tired dogs are happy dogs - we have loads of deciduous trees around the pens creating a more natural comfort - hot days we use soaker hoses on trees and sand to mist the pens - cool dogs are happy dogs - we don't leave them next to dogs who are intimidating them....less stress. Indoor area is visual block to other dogs but external area allows them to chat to their neighbour - choice helps reduce stress.....

Kennels are located next to my house backyard.... so I know what is going on up there... each year seems to get easier... all the regulars know the system and relax straight off... newbies might take a day or two to settle but the existing dogs ignore them which seems to help relax the newbies....(otherwise I shuffle dogs around to find what suits them).

Remember that Kennel Cough vaccination only lasts for approx 6 months, so if your dog has one at easter it will not cover your dog at xmas.......!!!!

[WreckitWhippet]

Baby puppy vacs + a vac around 16 months and then nothing from there.

I don't use flea or tick prevention or heart worm prevention and I worm when the dogs require it.

ETA: I only use C3 on the pups and adults.

I'll take my chances on KC, haven't had KC for around 5 or more years and the time my dogs did get it, it was limited to a couple and they were there vaccinated one's.

Edited February 6, 2014 by WreckitWhippet

[Tempus Fugit]

An interesting thread, but how would I get around the insistence of most boarding kennels for proof of C5 vaccination within the previous 12 months?

[stormie]

(Please note; I have also put my request/comments below, on the Health forum)

I would appreciate assistance in putting together a list of VETS with contact details, (all states/cities) personally recommended by people on this forum

Please feel free to E Mail me privately, or if allowed on this forum, to list here, VETS in all states that are open to more modern methods/protocols.

My puppy buyers are encountering enormous resistance to titre testing from the various Vets they go to.

In fact 1 particular QLD. Vet argued strongly to one of my puppy buyers that they MUST protect their dog by having a yearly C#7 PLUS a yearly heartworm injection PLUS monthly worming. (Sarcastically speaking, I wondered if he also asked; "Would you like immune mediated diseases with that"?)

Recently, I rang a Vet I have used in the past, to see if he would do a titre on my dogs & on future puppy buyers dogs, after they complete their 14 month old C #3. He said he "had only ever reluctantly done 1 titre test on a very elderly dog that had a strong adverse reaction from it's yearly vaccination". He said that "the OWNER insisted on the titre even though that it cost $300 from ASAP in Melbourne" . He said although his own young dog "has severe immune related skin allergies, & is on cortisone for life, that his dog HAS to get yearly C 5 because it comes to work with him & may be exposed to diseases from patients dogs"

I told him about VETPATH in W.A. & he was temporarily speechless.

Resistance by Vets seems to be a very common reaction.

That's funny. My dog comes to work (vet) and has since he was a puppy. His last vaccine was at 16weeks and (touch wood) he's never contracted anything.

Annual vaccines are outdated. Most of the vaccine companies recognise this and MOST now have 3 yearly vaccines available. With the guidelines available from the AVA and WSAVA there is no reason clinics should still be pushing annual vaccines.

If a dog does not seroconvert a vaccine, then it likely never will and vaccinating annually will not improve that. We need to be aiming to vaccinate more dogs/puppies, not less dogs more often!

[Salukifan]

Friend's dog brought it back from a national speciality a few years back - dog attended trial when it still had no symptoms and news of the outbreak hadn't broken.

Dog infected a number of dogs at the trial, some of her friends dogs and those of us who'd had contact quarantined our dogs as a precaution. Lots of entry fees for several weekends for lots of dogs went south.

It may only be an "inconvenient" disease but it has the potential to inconvenience a LOT of people beyond you. It can inconvenience people out of matings, titles, national attendances....Ask Customs - they had an entire kennel of dogs requiring quarantine a few years ago. I believe they vaccinate for it now.

Vaccinate or not for KC, your prerogative. But please quarantine your dogs if you have contact with KC - or indeed anything else. The lives of other dogs may depend on it. And you'd think this was common sense but FFS do NOT take a dog with a cough or diarrhoea to an event!!!

That's funny. My dog comes to work (vet) and has since he was a puppy. His last vaccine was at 16weeks and (touch wood) he's never contracted anything.

Has he been titred? The presence of a dog of questionable immunity at my local vets would piss me off big time. What a dog contracts and what a dog can incubate and spread are not one and the same thing.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Haredown Whippets