Reaction To Vaccination

[Do No Harm]

I've just joined DOL and am new to this, so hope I'm clicking on the right tabs. My dog almost died following her routine yearly booster in December 2003. I'd surely have lost her if it had not been for the holistic veterinarian we saw who treated the dog homeopathically. My steep learning curve started then. Because of what I encountered when I started asking questions here I looked elsewhere. I've had contact with Jean Dodds and Bob Rogers - both of whom sent me valuable information and copies of research papers. My dog's adverse reaction was not only unnecessary and avoidable but predictable too! She had a history of pollen allergy, and dogs with pollen allergies have an augmented response to virus vaccines. The dog now has more allergies. I understand from research done by Ron Schultz that if a dog is given a virus vaccine after the maternal antibodies have waned and that vaccine 'takes' then immunity from the vaccination is good for the life of the dog. Vaccines against bacterial diseases are different. My dog had some classic CNS signs of canine distemper following vaccination, she later developed 'crusty' nose, ie hardpad. Vaccines can cause the disease they are designed to prevent if given to a dog which is immunosuppressed. Dogs which are immunocompromised can have problems too. Too many veterinarians have a very cavalier approach to the use of immunobiological agents. Veterinarians are not regulated and they are not accountable. Too many owners are not aware of the federal government authority that licenses and monitors the use of veterinary products in Australia, so incidents of adverse reactions are chronically under-reported making the statistics extremely unreliable. Manufacturers of vaccines are heavy sponsors of Veterinary Conferences etc., so how independent are veterinarians when it comes to questioning the safety of one of the products made by a sponsor of their 'profession'? A few of us set up a website on this issue which focuses on the Australian scene http://www.freewebs.com/novaxx/ Our view is that veterinary services would improve if those who utilized them viewed themselves as 'consumers'. We do not pay service providers to cause harm and we do not pay veterinarians to make our animals sick. Enough from me!

[Cordelia]

Just for any newbies who may read this thread, please be aware that homeopathic vaccines are NOT effective against fatal diseases like Parvo Virus and Distemper.

Homeopathic vaccines are NOT recognised by boarding kennels, training clubs etc and the dog should not be classified as 'immune' from disease or safe from passing disease on to other unvaccinated puppies etc.

Vaccines have also not been proven to be effective for the life of the dog after just puppy vaccines and a booster at 12mths.

The current school of thought is that every 3-4yrs is sufficient in an average, healthy pet as without having a titre done, there is no way to know if the immunity is waning or high.

KC can be fatal when complications arise and whilst the mortality rate is nothing compared to Parvo, it does occur occasionally in young pups, older dogs and immunosuppressed or compromised animals.

I have seen several dogs and pups over the years develop pneumonia due to secondary bacterial infection.

Whilst I find the KC vaccine useless to actually prevent the disease, it can reduce the severity of symptoms when using the nasal vaccine.

[Rappie]

Not entering a discussion on vaccination but thought I might clear up the vaccination site issue.

Subcutaneous injections can be given anywhere that there is a bit of loose skin.

"In the bum" makes me think of two sites, one is in the fold of skin in the inguinal (flank) region and the other is the skin over the thigh.

The second is a less commonly used site for subcutaneous injections, but still useful and low on the thigh is the recommended site for rabies vaccinations etc where there is a recognised risk of vaccination associated sarcomas (which haven't been identified in Australia).

There could be any number of reasons for the vet doing this - even something simple like the C3/C4 and the kennel cough injections weren't the same brand or the vet doesn't like to mix them in the same syringe.

[morgan]

Whilst I find the KC vaccine useless to actually prevent the disease, it can reduce the severity of symptoms when using the nasal vaccine.

Regardless of the efficacy of homoeopathic vaccines, the remedy "bryonia" will usually completely cure KC in 2 or 3 days (2 or 3 x daily). When my dogs have caught it in the past at dog shows they have been completely well in 2 days using this approach. There is no need to use an immunosuppressant just when their immune system needs all the help it can get.

[Kirra_Bomber_Zeus]

Just for any newbies who may read this thread, please be aware that homeopathic vaccines are NOT effective against fatal diseases like Parvo Virus and Distemper.

Homeopathic vaccines are NOT recognised by boarding kennels, training clubs etc and the dog should not be classified as 'immune' from disease or safe from passing disease on to other unvaccinated puppies etc.

Vaccines have also not been proven to be effective for the life of the dog after just puppy vaccines and a booster at 12mths.

The current school of thought is that every 3-4yrs is sufficient in an average, healthy pet as without having a titre done, there is no way to know if the immunity is waning or high.

KC can be fatal when complications arise and whilst the mortality rate is nothing compared to Parvo, it does occur occasionally in young pups, older dogs and immunosuppressed or compromised animals.

I have seen several dogs and pups over the years develop pneumonia due to secondary bacterial infection.

Whilst I find the KC vaccine useless to actually prevent the disease, it can reduce the severity of symptoms when using the nasal vaccine.

Just because 'science' has not recognised homeopathic nosodes are effective doesnt mean they arent. Homeopathic 'medication' does work - science will never want to prove this - but it is proven to me by seeing it actually work.

Dogs still get diseases after being immunised 'conventionally' against fatal diseases, and, even though I know you disagree with me on this Cordelia - conventional vaccines have been known to cause the disease they are supposed to prevent. Personally, I cant prove nosodes are effective and truly havent bothered to research it all that much because since I wont be vaccinating my dogs again anyway - it doesnt matter to me. I would dearly love to see what "natural" vaccines vets are going to come up with though if they arent nosodes.

By the way - there are bording kennels that recognise nosodes - actually quite a few in the next suburb to me.

Actually there have been studies done regarding vaccinations being effective for the life of the dog. There have also been studies to show vaccines last at least 7 years. I guess it just depends on what you believe. Personally - I can not understand the whole 'boost' the immunity thing - and there are studies to show this doesnt work. Either you are immune to something or you're not.

We are talking about the veterinary profession who for all these years have been vaccinating annually with NO scientific evidence that this is necessary. Now they have turned around and said we need to vaccinate every 3 years. Whats next?

I will not just 'go along' with what a vet tells me to do with my dog. I choose to do my own research because I believe there are ulterior motives (ie money) in these situations - certainly not always with every vet - but definately within the pharmacutical industry.

Jen

[Staff'n'Toller]

We are talking about the veterinary profession who for all these years have been vaccinating annually with NO scientific evidence that this is necessary. Now they have turned around and said we need to vaccinate every 3 years. Whats next?

Jenny it's not the Veterinary Profession, it's the Vaccine manufacturers who recommend to Vaccinate annually. The Veterinary Profession are using these medications as directed by the manufacturer- to do otherwise would be unethical.

Also the 'three year vaccination' thing has been approved for one brand of Vaccine only. One type of Vaccine made by one particular manufacturer.

Personally - I can not understand the whole 'boost' the immunity thing - and there are studies to show this doesnt work. Either you are immune to something or you're not.

Yes, but for how long are you immune? Humans are not immune to tetanus for their whole lives. I have been told by my doctor that women of childbearing age such as myself should have a MMR booster, due to the risk of possibly catching Rubella, since it has been 10yrs since my last vaccine.

[Do No Harm]

I'm sorry. I don't know how to set the 'Quotes' into a reply. I'll try some more to figure that one out!

The reason vets vaccinate annually is nothing to do with veterinary ethics - it is because of legal liability. However, vaccine manufacturers labels state that only 'healthy' animals should be vaccinated. This is because the vaccine, because of it's nature, suppresses the immune system for a few days after administration. This is a physiological reality and a normal response by the immune system. It is why vets tell owners to keep the dog at home for a few days after vaccinating (to avoid exposure to risks). From the perspective of the veterinary profession, when each dog is vaccinated it is more to do with HERD immunity than for the benefit of the individual dog which is given the vaccine.

So far as the health of the dog at the time of vaccinating, Kirks Current Veterinary Therapy, XI states: "vaccination of an immunosupressed host can result in modified live vaccines causing the disease they are designed to prevent." pg 206.

Many commonly prescribed medications are immunosupressing. Many dogs have immune system disorders that are immunosuppressive.

Many dogs are immunocompromised. Vaccinating a dog which is immunocompromised can cause post vaccinal encephalitis (Meyer) Dogs with allergies have an augmented response to viral vaccines. If you vaccinate a dog which has pollen allergies its allergies will worsen and it is likely to develop further allergies. (Frick and Brooks). That research was published in 1983, yet most Australian vets STILL don't get it. Chronic allergies in dogs are extremely common. Most affected dogs are still being vaccinated every year on veterinary advice and their allergies are getting progressively worse and/or they are developing allergies to more things (food, environmetal etc.)

Some breeds of dogs are known to be more susceptible to adverse reaction to vaccines.

My own dog had atopy and she was vaccinated annually. She was fine for several years - BUT VACCINES ARE CUMULATIVE. After her last vaccine, she developed post vaccinal encephalitis and 'hardpad' which needed months of intensive treatment, the atopy has worsened now she also has food allergies - which she didn't have before. It was PREDICTABLE!

Dr Ron Schultz, the Veterinary Immunologist has said that veterinarians don't know much about immunology and they know even less about vaccines. Moreover, ask any scientist who has studied immunology and researched viruses and vaccines and they will tell you that Immunologists, Virologists and Vaccinologists freely admist that so much is not known about immune systems and they STILL don't really know how vaccines work! Perhaps I'm fortunate to have a good friend who is a Viral Immunologist/Vaccinologist.

The Fort Dodge Duramune vaccine has recently been approved by the APVMA and is stated to have a duration of immunity (DOI) of "up to 39 months", Intervet has been manufacturing a three year vaccine for a long time. However, these claims are a bit of a nonsense because they have nothing to do with immunity, they are to do with commercially manufacturing a product which has to be licensed before it can be brought onto the market for widespread use.

None of these arguments address the issue of the non-responder. The 'non responder' is a host which does not and cannot respond to a vaccine by producing immunity to the diseases that were vaccinated against. Ron Scultz estimates this number to be 1 in 5,000 dogs. Others suggest the figure is higher. That is, a non responder can be vaccinated and have a current vaccination certificate which permits it to be shown, trained, boarded etc., but it is not immune - at least as a result of the vaccine it isn't!

Someone here posted that a doctor has advised a 'booster' MMR vaccine to women of childbearing age because her last one was given more than 10 years ago. The post seemed to imply that a baby could be at risk if she did not and that she was given a comparison with tetanus to sup[port the recommendation. Perhaps it would be wise to consult someone with far more expertise than a GP and/or seek a second and even third opinion. You cannot compare immunity to viral diseases with tetanus because tetanus is a bacterial disease. Immunity to viral disease is not the same as immunty to bacterial disease - and once given a vaccine cannot be reomoved!

A quick Google search for the ingredients of vaccines would alert to what is being injected into the body and what the body then has to cope with. Alternative a visit to the Australian Vaccination network at http://www.avn.org.au/

The measles virus in humans and the distemper virus in dogs are members of the moribilla family of viruses. So is the virus which mysteriously emerged to kill several racehorses and the trainer Vic Rail in Queensland a few years ago. After vaccination, viruses are shed for up to 45 days. In my opinion, not enough is known about viruses and viral mutation to mess around with over-vaccinating our dogs. We cannot afford such a cavalier approach to our dogs health, our own health, the health of our communities and the health of our environment.

The World Health Organisation's policy on vaccinations is to not vaccinate against diseases that are unless they are endemic in the area. Do you think they don't know what they are talking about?

When and where was the last outbreak of canine distemper in Australia? When and where was the last outbreak of Canine Infectious Hepatitis in Australia? When and where was there a case of a healthy adult contracting Parvovirus? Don't say that vaccination keeps these diseases at bay. If it was then it would not only be the occasional outbreak of parvo - we'd have distemper and hepatitis too! Moreover, an estimated 50% of dogs are not vaccinated. What do you think protects them if the diseases are just lying around and waiting to 'catch' an unvaccinated dog?

With so much in the way of vaccines, wormers, heartworm preventative, flea treatments, etc. etc being given regularly throughout a dog's life - not to treat a sickenss but as a prophylactic, is it any wonder we have increasing behavioral problems that leads to increasinly restrictive legislation. How would any of us feel if we had so much toxin relentlessly thrown into and onto our bodies all through our lives. I'll bet we'd feel like exploding!